Fodor's Travel Talk Forums - Different Perspective on Paris

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Martha, my apologies. My comment concerning pronuncaitions was not meant for anything you said, but in general. I should stay out of this kind debate as well. I was just curious what precipitated the comments.

In a way, I am quite reassured with Joanne's post : reading day after day all those enthusiastic opinions about how nice Parisians were, I was beginning to wonder : am I the only one who gets snubbed at ? are all taxi drivers nice to people except me ? I see that it also happens to others... No, seriously, as people know, Paris is a big, busy city, and people don't always have the time to be nice. And, as one respondent puts it, if you want squeaky-clean, Disneyland Paris is just 30 km away. For instance ( but it's maybe because I am used to Parisian rudeness), I don't mind that NYC quickness, and sometimes rudeness, I feel ill at ease when everybody systematically smiles at me. It feels like "The Truman show" ! And, as cliché as it may seem, a lot comes from the language : like the people of London, or Buenos Aires, or NY, Parisians may be hard on the surface, but it can easily be scratched, and inside they'll be as mellow as a ripe mango !

Thanks, Elvira and Francesca for your posts, which I found to have a lot of truth and helpfulness, and I will read the book that has been suggested. John, your post gave me a good laugh. "Paris is the most traveled city in the world. Does Joanne honestly believe that Parisians should be happy that all those darn tourists are bringing billions of dollars, deutchmarks, yen, and rubles into the restaurants and museums of Paris?!....." Actually, I do indeed believe that a city that depends so much on tourism should be very happy that I spend a small fortune bringing my family to Paris. Of course, I don't believe that everyone should be as excited about our vacation as we are. But a concierge in a hotel where I spent $450 per night for two small rooms should have helped us out a little. We don't expect a huge amount of effort, just plain good information. It was hard to keep my sense of humor on the train situation when my option was to have my family (including my three young kids) face the prospect of being "put off the train", or go to a different destination, or find alternative transportion to make sure that we got to our destinations where hotels were prepaid. As it turned out, we rented a car ourselves, $800 for 3 days, with no referral or help from the concierge, after several late night hours of calling stateside for better information on the Italian rail strike, which may not have even been legitimate. I agree that my European friends are pleasantly shocked when they experience American hospitality. This is going to generate a new message - What should a good concierge do for his/her guests? And also another new message regarding the gullibility of some Americans to be so in love with Europe, and the political correctness of not being an "ugly American" that everything American is bad and everything European is good.

I see no reason to feel less than adequate because we complain about European cultures. Why not? They complain like the mischief about us, our use of language, our art appreciation, our taste in music, our food .... So if there is a little retrofire, so be it. I think Americans should be more savvy on many issues, but Europeans don't always bowl me over with their intellect either. In fact I have had somewestern European students in class that were just as dumb/smart as American students.

Joanne, I have 2 questions. 1. If you brought your kids to France to practice their French, how do you equate this with "Even going out of our way....to speak French as much as possible". 2. What in the world did you rent (car) that cost $800.00 for 3 days?

This has been a very fun thread; I personally got a boot out of the concierge being so uppity about the Italian trains being on strike. France has more strikes than anyplace I know. I personally have witnessed/experienced: department store clerks protesting having to work weekends; train strike that lasted one day (every OTHER train ran); air traffic control strike that lasted one day (every OTHER plane flew); RER janitors/cleaners strike that piled up garbage in the RER stations. Maybe the concierge was scoffing at how few strikes Italy manages to have in comparison to France...once again, those fun-loving, wacky Parisians have entertained me...

Joanne, I am glad my post gave you a good laugh. It is important not to lose your sense of humor. Well, if you liked my last post, you will just be thrilled with this one. Let me start by saying that I have no intention of offending you or mean any of my comments as an affront to you. We are just having a discussion which neither one of us may or has to agree with the other. It has nothing to do with right or wrong. Just perceptions and what we believe in and our experiences. I do believe that the Paris city fathers are very happy that you as well as many others do decide to spend their tourist dollars in Paris rather than other places. In fact, about 15 years ago or so, people were not spending their dollars in Paris. Especially Americans because the anti-American feeling was at its peak. There was a concerted effort to bury these feelings and to make Paris appear more user-friendly towards American travellers. I believe the effort was sucessful. However, my comment was referring to those Parisians who are not the city fathers or associated with tourist dollars. I think to the average Parisian, tourism is something to be tolerated, but not necessarily loved. Getting back to your concierge. I have used the services of a concierge only for recommending a restaurant or for making a restaurant reservation. I honestly would not have thought of going to him about helping you get to italy. I would guess your options were to either cancel Italy, fly or drive. What service could the Concierge give in this situation? Were you expecting him to tell you when the strike in Italy would end? Did you expect him to make the necessary arrangements for alternate transportation to Italy? I could be wrong, but I really don't think of a Concierge performing these kind of tasks. I think the front desk people would have helped you if you explained the situation to them. I think they would have made inquires into the train strike situation. If you paid that much for a hotel, there must have been a telephone in your room and a phone book. Why didn't you just call the airport or airlines or car rental places yourself? I am sure there would have been an english speaking person to answer your questions. If you didn't know how to use the phones, the hotel staff would have helped you or made the call for you.. Does this really exscuse the behavior of the concierge? Not in my mind. Of course, I wasn't there and don't know how you approached him or what you really said to him, but I can't imagine a Concierge at such an expensive hotel being that rude to you. I guess I would have expected him to direct you to the people who could have helped you if it wasn't part of his job description. If you honestly felt there was no reason on your part to elicit such a rude response then you should have complained to the hotel management. I didn't say anything before, but you brought up the references about money, how much you were spending, small fortune to bring your family there, etc. I thought I had detected a sense of this in your earlier comments, but gave you the benefit of doubt. This is precisely what many refer to as the "ugly American" who thinks only in $$ and can say, do and/or demand whatever they please because it is their money and it gives them the right. I am sorry, but this is the impression you give me and you did reference the money. If I am wrong, I apologize. Maybe this is what the Concierge sensed as well and it ticked him off. Of course, as the customer, you do have certain rights and you should be serviced as necessary. But you know that it makes a difference how you complain and how you approach a customer service rep. Do you approach the person, calm and politely state your case and needs or do you go after the person in a rage, making outlandish demands and the such. I am not suggesting you did this in your case. It is just an example. My earlier post tried to say that we Americans have different views of how we should be treated and to the Europeon are much more troublesome than other nationals. I think that more times than not, if you listen to a dispute in Europe with tourists you will hear the American bring money into the discussion. Other nationals will never mention money and will only discuss the disservice or disrespect or rudeness that was directed at them. American hospitality? Are you serious? If you are then our experiences are certainly different. Where have you seen signs in different languages in the US? Where have you seen transportation people able to converse with a foreign tourist in their native tongue? What restaurants in the US have you been in that can accommodate a foreign tourist in their native tongue? Can you imagine a foreign tourist who can't speak a word of intelligible english other than to say hello, good morning or thank you or sorry, I can't speak your language in an American restaurant or walk into a Hertz office to rent a car? Where have you witnessed an American helping a foreign tourist find someplace or taking them by the hand and taking them to wherever they had to go or reaching into their pocket and giving them the necessary change to get on a subway or bus? If you have seen Americans do these things then you live in a different America then I do. If your European friends experienced American hospitality then it was because you went to the airport and picked them up or else they were fluent in English which wouldn't surprise me at all. Who were you addressing your comment to about, "the gullibility of some Americans to be so in love with Europe, and the political correctness of not being an "ugly American" that everything American is bad and everything European is good"? If it was directed at me you are way off base. I am neither gullible or in love with Europe. That wore off a long time ago. Obviously, not everything in America is bad or is everything in Europe in good. However, it really has nothing to do with either. It has to do with diffferences and respecting those differences. The first rule of being a good tourist or traveller is to recognize that ... you are the visitor. You are not home. You are in someone esle's country and should act acordingly. I am somewhat sensitive about the "ugly Amercan" term because, unfortunately, I have witness such behavior more times than I would have liked and it isn't very pretty. At those particular moments it is not easy to feel proud to be an American or is it easy to defend such behavior. Nor should such behavior be defended. Fortunately, many, many Americans are real good. Unfortunately, there have been enough bad ones to coin the term "ugly Americans". Perhaps with discussions such as these, others will be made more aware of such feelings and make changes.

Wow, John. I love it when people say "no offense, but..." then say something that is bound to offend. First, you are misunderstanding the dynamics that I've tried to describe. There was no flying at the hotel staff in a rage. This was not a situation of assuming that $$$$s should take care of everything. We were not ugly Americans. We were quiet, we were polite, we asked and not demanded. My frustration has been that we educated ourselves on foreign customs, adopted a tolerant attitude, made every attempt to be cordial and pleasant guests. In Italy, we got all the help and friendliness in the world. The hotel staff liked our children, and we spent quite some time talking with the hotel staffs, getting dinner recommendations, learning the history of the hotel, getting the local opinion of the renovations, etc. In Paris, it was a series of frustrations. Can one family be a nice and welcomed in one country, then turn into ugly Americans? Richard, our $800 (there's the money again!) car for 3 days was the smallest Renault that could hold our five passengers and 5 pieces of luggage. It would have been less expensive had we kept the car for 5 days, but we didn't want to drive once in Rome. And we couldn't really shop around because, as I said, we were in a time crunch and a jam, we weren't getting a lot of help, and we had to take what we could find. Thanks, all, for your quite interesting and astute opinions.

Well, Joanne, if what you say is true and I don't have any reason not to believe you, then the Concierge's behavior was totally uncalled for and you should have complained to the management. That type of behavior is really rude and misplaced even by Parisian standards. By the way, what hotel did you stay at? Yes, Italy and it's people are more friendly. My last 4 trips to Europe have been to Italy. Perhaps Paris needs a refresher course in "user-friendliness".

I don't care what you all think. I love Paris!! I'm Southern and I guess I'm just naturally friendly. The only person rude to us in Paris was an Italian waiter. Most of the Parisians were very helpful to us. I even had a German and Parisian make fun of my southern accent. It was great fun. One night at a Metro Station, a Parisian man saw that we were a bit confused and put his own coins in the machine for tickets for us and told us which train to catch. I think it all has to do with attitude. They probably felt sorry for this little ole southern gal and were kind to me!

Joanne, what a fascinating thread you've given birth to! On the subject of concierges, I'm a great believer in both concierges and sommeliers. These people are on the payrolls of hotels and restaurants because they provide valuable services. You would have been entirely in your right to have acquainted your Parisian concierge with the quaint midwestern American custom of the "swirley." A competent concierge recommends good places to eat other than those in every guidebook, arranges restaurant reservations, cuts through red tape of any kind, knows the shortest route from the hotel to anywhere, and can stop you from doing something stupid without making you feel stupid in the process. A good sommelier is worth his or her weight in gold when he or she acquaints you with local or regional wines at fair prices that complement your meal. I have learned more about the wines of Europe by allowing sommeliers to introduce me to obscure wines than by all the wine tastings I've ever attended.

I am shocked--SHOCKED--to see the turn this discussion has taken. Regional pride is all well and good, but I do not think there is any sound historical basis to Neal's claim that the swirly is a midwestern invention.

What the heck is a swirley?

Anybody got an 11-foot pole? (For the question no one will touch with a 10-foot pole.)

I'm anxious to know what this swirley thing is, too. Is it 1)physical violence, akin to a haymaker or 2) that finger gesture that'll get you shot if you use it on a freeway...

Yes, please, what is a swirley????

Ok, I am going to attempt to answer this, though I may regret it. I may be very, very wrong, but my husband once explained a swirley to me as shoving someone's head in the toilet and flushing (yes, we do have such stimulating conversations in our house).

Go Yanks go. I just love this post, swirly and all. Isn't this site just wonderful. It is like sitting in a room and listening to great discussions. Going to France next year, so have got my nulla nulla packed.

John ([email protected]) said: <Where have you witnessed an American helping a foreign tourist find someplace or taking them by the hand and taking them to wherever they had to go.... If you have seen Americans do these things then you live in a different America then I do.> I live in the same America you do. And I have indeed many times helped foreigners I have seen on the streets, buses, shops, museums etc in the USA. Some of these people I saw struggling with English and if I spoke their languages I helped them communicate what they needed. If they were Asian and thus knew a language I did not, then I still helped them if they said they would like assistance. I have also helped Germans in Spain communicate with customs agents, Italians in French Polynesia check into hotels etc etc. I think people should help each other as much as possible (and yes, I have twice had strangers pay the remainder of my bus fare on the shuttle to the airport when I miscalculated how much local currency I still needed). Random acts of kidness have a way of coming back t