alanRow: What's a Saffer? I understand Kiwis, Canucks, and Ozzies, but not Saffers.

My travel partner/best friend/sister is a wonderful planner, but left to my own devices, I find a place for the first and last night and then wing it the rest of the time. I suspect that I miss out on many sights, but I do get miles and miles of walks done.

When my sister plans, she lists all the sights and restaurants we might want to visit, but we don't usually stick to the list very well. However, our list of destinations and hotels is fixed in cement.

I think it's just that the people who post here are planners. I work in Compliance so - yeah, there's got to be a plan! I don't like to get to a place and then start wondering what to do. I also don't want to waste time looking through the guide books all day while we're away. So I try to get a plan for all of the things that would interest me. It doesn't mean that if there's a rainstorm when I "planned" to hike that I'll short circuit and not be able to recover - lol. I don't walk around with this itinerary and keep timing our activities. For instance - I will post my planned itinerary for Utah soon and I will list when I plan to do certain hikes. People might suggest moving them around because of better light or cooler weather and if I didn't have an itinerary I wouldn't be able to get that kind of help. I have a couple of cousins who stick to a timetable and I agree that is no way to travel.

>alanRow: What's a Saffer? I understand Kiwis, Canucks, and Ozzies, but not Saffers.<

If I guess correctly Saffer = South African

You know I first <i>learnt</i> people do such detail planning only a year or so ago after receiving one from a close friend who is as organized and analytical as one can get. I tried it for a long trip, and it really worked. I do put in too much stuff but you can always choose not to do things. I have to say I enjoyed the trip far more than ever before since I more or less knew what I will be seeing.

Lately, I do it (to some extent) for business trips too. If I have an opportunity to see something cool in the evening or have a dinner at a really nice restaurant, why not?:)

I take back what I said about Canadians - I've just read an itinerary where the OP does 4 countries in 20 days

I am a semi-detailed interary builder. I research like crazy and make lists. I make a few reservations where needed, but mostly we pick things off the list when we get there based on the weather and what we feel like doing. And if something else entirely looks good, we do that.

What I have noticed with some Europeans coming to the US is not a detailed itinerary, but rather a tendency to try to see to many places that are far a part in a short amount of time. Esspecially in the west, things can be really far apart and I think people underestimate the time it takes to get places.

I think trip-planning is built into my DNA!

But I've noticed there are two kinds of &quot;itinerary planners&quot;. WIDKT originally referred to those who have detailed plans for every hour of each day. (I suspect many are first timers to Europe who abandon the &quot;plan&quot; the first day.)

The other type researches like crazy, determines which cities to allocate how many days to, then books flights/hotels well in advance. In making those decisions, they've developed a fair idea of what they want to see in each location. But there's no rigid hourly plan. I fall into this category. My research madness has more to do with learning. (E.g., the next time we find ourselves in the 5th ere of Paris, I've heard about a little store I want to visit.)

I must admit there is one downside to all the planning: it does tend to diminish the spontaneity.

My very unscientific guess as to why so many Americans seek detailed itineraries is because our time off work is very precious to us. Most people work 50 weeks a year and getting even 2 weeks off together is not easily accomplished. Your boss (in many, not all cases)can actually not approve of that much time off all at one time.
At my last job, I was fortunate enough to take a 3-4 week overseas vacation every 1-1.5 years. This company had over 3000 employees and I was the only one I knew who did this. I had to take some of the time off without pay. Most of my co-workers couldn't fathom being able to afford time off without pay.
In the US there is no law requiring an employer to give everyone 5 weeks vacation like in France, it is strictly up to the employer though some people have a union that guarantees some of your employee benefits.
In short, many feel like they have to maximize their time because getting back could take years...

I agree that a lot of the itineraries sound like the Bataan death march. But, I think many americans feel they may only get to europe once or twice - and so really try to pack in as much as possible.

If you're just across the channel - or just in the next country - and have much more vacation time to boot - you can afford to be much casuale about the whole planning thing.

Although, I must admit - we don't - and I have never - done that kind of planning - which on what day and what time to have lunch where. We reerve hotels - and car if it's a road trip - and anything else only if it must be resreved beforehand (which is really practically nothing - if you're willing to spend a little more to have flexibility.)

We have reserved a vatican scavi tour in advance, and also ceremony of the keys at the Tower of London - but nothing else I can think of.

Other than that we have a list of what we might like to see - and a note on what days things are closed - that's it. And, on the road, we sometimes head off in completely differnt directions, or find that a town we though we would love is only worth lunch - but a church we chance upon is worth a couple of hours.

So - to me, most of this planning is too much. Even with really hot restaurants - a decent concierge can usually get you in on the night you want.

WIDKT:

Let me add one other possibility. The people who post here usually don't fit the &quot;Ugly American&quot; stigma. I know, in my case, part of my motivation is to avoid appearing like the stereotypical American: no effort to learn language, &quot;culinarily challenged&quot;, white tennis shoes, and thinks seeing the Eiffel Tower means one has seen Paris.

You know what I mean. Research is my way of avoiding embarrassing incidents (well, I TRY to avoid them!). I travel far more confidently than I would if I had no clue about local customs/cultures.

I have to once again quote my favorite movie: Summertime, directed by David Lean and starring K Hepburn and Rosanno Brazzi - and Venice. The script by Arthur Laurents is terrific.

Hepburn meets a retired American couple (touring the continent with a group) on the Vaporetto enroute to her Pensione. Mr. McIlhenny reads from the tour group's busy itinerary: &quot;9:00 o'clock, Doge's palace. 10:00 o'clock, Bridge of Sighs. 11:00, I.A.&quot;

&quot;I.A.?&quot; Hepburn asks.

&quot;Independant Activity,&quot; McIlhenny replies. &quot;We get one hour of it every day!&quot;

For those of us who live so far away that Europe may be a once-in-a-lifetime event, planning is essential to ensure none of that 'rare' time (and money) is wasted.

I'm one of the madder ones (because I'm passionate about travel) who has done it more than once in a lifetime, but still I plan in detail, knowing full well that my plan is only a framework and will be varied and departed from many times throughout a trip. But the plan means that my decisions to depart from it are 'informed' decisions vis-a-vis what might I be giving up, and at what point can I best return to my itinerary (if at all).

Despite the planning, I fall into the category of those who 'wing it'. My plan is of movements only, and I do depart from it more than I follow it. And I've almost never ever pre-booked a room (let alone a restaurant!) in my life. On the rare occasions when I did pre-book a room it was only a day ahead when I was due to arrive somewhere at, say, 1 in the morning (e.g. on a ferry from Ireland to Wales).

In answer to those who ask why would you spend all that money to wing it, my answer is to ask why would you spend all that money to shackle yourself to a pre-booked itinerary thus taking all the fun and adventure (and, yes, risk) out of it? But I guess that's to do with where you're from and how hard (or costly) it is to get there. To some it is a holiday or vacation; to others it is a rare pioneering adventure.

tomassocroccante, Small error I think. McIlhenny replied they get <i>two</i> hours of it every day :) My favorite movie too.

Okay, my wife corrected me. Apparently you are right.

Some really interesting responses. I didn't realise quite how limited vacation time was for many in the US. In the UK there's a 4 week statutory minimum. I'm fortunate enough to have 27 days plus 8 public holidays.

Again you're probably right that we in Europe are a bit blase about ease and low cost of travel between EU states. Two and half hours on a plane can get you anywhere from Helsinki to Rome.

I am curious as to whether the Europeans here &quot;wing it&quot; when visting, say, China or the Americas??

I would think that most people do something in between. It's not a choice between detailed itinerary and completely winging it - just jumping on a plane and seeing what you can find the other end. there is such a thing as a middle ground.

I book accomodation in advance. I look at guide-books. I work out a few 'must-sees' and 'must-do'. I check out if they are restricted times/availability and might think 'oh so I'll do that on Wednesday or Thursday'. After that, I see what feel like when I'm there, using my guide books, random wandering, being influenced by the weather/how tired or energetic I feel, etc etc.

The thought of having a detailed 'on day 1 go to X, walk past Y, eat in cafe B, visit Z museum, eat at restaurant D, go to M and then back to the hotel itinerary is just ghastly to me.
that doesn't mean I don't think about my holiday or get good deals in advance or miss out on stuff.

No, Comfy, I'm afraid your wife and I are in error. (I've popped in the DVD to check) Though I'm famous with at least one person for re=enacting - or at least reciting - scenes from Summertime, I made another error as well: the McIlhennys are not with a group of any kind, of course:

&quot;Our travel agency did a cracker jack job! Planned every step of the way! Here, look at this, here's today's itinerary:
Eight AM, breakfast.
Nine, Doge's Palace, Bridge of Sighs.
Ten, San Marco Cathedral.
Ten-thirty to twelve-thirty, I.A.&quot;

&quot;I.A.? What's that?&quot;

&quot;Independent Activity. We're allowed two hours of it every day.&quot;


For those who don't know Summertime, writing in the 1950s this romance includes snapshots of the postwar travel surge in Europe. The McIlhennys' trip begins when they dock at Southampton June 15 and includes Ireland, Scotland, England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany, Austria and Switzerland, then Venice, Florence (&quot;Firenze!&quot; Mrs. McIlhenny says, &quot;That's the name the Italians have given it!&quot;), Rome, Naples, Capri, Spain and Portugal.

They leave September 9, about 12 weeks after arriving, but Jane (Hepburn) still seems to think they are cramming a lot into a short time. But although 12 countries in 12 weeks would be exhausting - and still leave some confusion in the end - it seems like a luxurious slow pace compared to many trips. My parents did the whirlwind with Globus Tours 20 years ago. They piggybacked a week in England/Ireland with 10 days doing Paris, Munich, Vienna, Rome and I don't know what else. My mother, a star note-taker, kept a running list in her journal of photos that were taken, which was invaluable when the 10 rolls of film were returned as witness to a couple of weeks lived in the bus lane ...

I am an American who does not use an itinerary of any kind, well past knowing what cities I will be in what days... I do have that much arranged.

Kerouac - I feel exactly the same way. Often I don't even have a hotel reservation for the first night, sometimes I do. It works both ways. There are some times though when I want to stay at a particular hotel e.g. du Danube, and then I do make a reservation. When I was active duty I traveled a lot on military flights on a space available basis. At those times, I didn't even know where I was going until I was called. I have seen some great places that way.

Well, I am a Canadian and fascinated by this thread...I have read those blow-by-blow itineraries with a mix of admiration and horror. I think we Canucks are the national compromise between the UK/European and the American on many things and this is another.

I see we generally have more vacation time than Americans: 3 weeks per annum is statutory minimum and the longer you stay (or the better you negotiate as you rise in the field) the more you get-currently I have 8 weeksand that is not unusual for folks 8-10 years from retirement, as I am.

I would say we are average travel planners...in fact when I mentioned the gist of this thread up at lunch with colleagues, they, like many on this Board, (me and mine included) were somewhere in the middle.

Item of agreement: flight(s) booked, first night or two's accomodation booked, train travel not booked and not into passes, after that know generally what cities they will see, guidebook in hand, but play it by ear...sometimes with hotel reccos from friends or travel sites like this.

EXCEPT for travel that involves another couple, large family reunion or an event like a honeymoon, twenty-fifth anniversary etc. that seemed to be the norm.

I asked a question here a long time ago about the negative side of NOT planning in advance specifically re: train travel in Italy and never really got an answer.

I'd like to take it further: is there some downside to NOT planning in advance? were you ever put in danger, went hungry, forced to sleep in a car or someother &quot;too high&quot; price to pay? Or is it just fun/satisfying to have that agenda done?

LJ, my one craziest experience of &quot;not planning&quot; was actually a flaw in the plan.

A friend and I arrived in St. Martin enroute to St. Barts. Last flight in of the night. Man at immigration asks, &quot;Where are you staying?&quot; We say, in a rented house on St. Barts. &quot;Where are you staying TONIGHT?&quot; he asks with a frown.

Well, our flight into St. Martin arrived just before midnight, and there would be no flight to St. Barts until around 6:00 am. Our plan had been to just hang out at the airport.

&quot;The airport closes in ten minutes, you can't stay here.&quot; oops.

Then: &quot;You can't leave the airport unless you have a place to stay tonight.&quot; They don't want people camping on the beach, or arriving without a dated return ticket ... We could only wonder what magic trick we could do if we were forced to leave yet required to stay.

He directed us to the tourism desk, where we were given the name of a hotel to go to, told they would have room. (not a reservation) We tell immigration man that we're going there, and he lets us leave the airport.

We take a cab to the hotel in question, and they have no rooms. The cab has left us. Fortunately, someone manages to get another cab on the phone, which is fairly miraculous as the airport has closed and that's where you phone cabs. (Or did in the days before cell phones.)

Now where? Well, I had read about the Casino Royale hotel/resort that seemed to be near the airport. We had our driver take us there, figuring if there were no rooms we could hang out at the casino and eat, etc.

We go to the desk, it's now after 1:00 AM and we plan to catch a 6:00 flight ... a room is $300, or about $75 an hour. They graciously hold our bags for us at the desk and we go to the casino, which is BORING. Then go looking for something to eat. Though there are lots of folks in the bars, etc, the only food available is the ice cream shop, where we enjoy huge sundaes, our first food in many hours.

We are exhausted. While wandering around the grounds, my friend starts chatting with a security guard (I'd have avoided that at all costs.) He suggests that we ask his friend &quot;Jerome&quot;, now at the front desk, if we can hang out in the huge, comfortable and empty lobby. So we do, and Jerome says no problem, &quot;But wouldn't you rather have a room?&quot; I say it's too much for a couple of hours.

Ultimately Jerome asks us to make an offer on the room, I say $50, and he gives us a gorgeous beachfront room with two queen beds, where we catch a couple of hours of sleep, get a wake-up call and take showers. Jerome has called a cab, waiting for us at 5:30. Of course out of his $50 cash he probably has to tip the maid to change the room without recording it, etc. Because this is clearly off the books, even down to being sure we would be gone before th shift change. But it was my favorite unscheduled overnight - and a lifesaver, as those few hours of sleep gave us a decent 1st day in St. Barts and a great start to our trip.

I read a bunch, but my only planning is booking hotels--sometimes more than 1 then I decide when I get there and maybe a restaurant or two if it is Michelin starred or otherwise hot.

I also don't plan on doing anything other than walking around or sitting in cafes--I figure I am on vacation, I don't want to run around. And as much as I make fun of the tour bus at home in NYC, I have learned to embrace it when on holiday--that way I can at least say I saw whatever sight it is that the city is known for.

As others have said, i think most Americans view a trip overseas as a once in a lifetime event due to costs, travel time and lack of vacation. Luckily my husband and I both have 5 and 6 weeks of vacation/year and live on the east coast. For us it is cheaper and faster (considering all the domestic flight delays) to go to Europe than it is to go anywhere else, so we go several times a year, even if for only a 4 or 5 day weekend.

In a similar vein, do Europeans obsess over pickpockets and hiding their belonging in leg safes, money belts and the like when they travel to the US or otherwise.

I am not trying to be snarky--I really am curious.

Tomas...GREAT story and the stuff that travel adventures are made of...now I know (or at least) assume that you were two young guys and therefore, prehaps might be deemed, more ready for adventure.

But I would like to think that my DH and I would be open for that sort of thing to happen EVEN today. For me, us, I should say, too much planning deprives your trip of that element of intrigue, adventure, serendipity or whatever you want to call it that makes travel wonderful.

BTW, as a result of that &quot;what the heck&quot; attitude to hotel planning, we once spent a night in Umbria in a place where we were clearly the only guests who bothered to pay for a full night...very interesting!

Tomasso.., Great story and I will tell my wife I was right as always :)

LJ,
It was actually my closest female friend and I - we were joining other friends at a rented villa on St. Barts, invited at the last minute to take the space of others who were leaving early. The beginning of a my love affair with the Caribbean. And we were around 40 yrs old at the time.

Would love the details on your Umbria adventure! My ex and I arrived at Orvieto by car one time an hour or so before sundown. We had a hotel reservation but had left the directions at home, so we began driving around looking for it. It would turn out to be not in the town at all, of course but down in the outskirts. That didn't stop us from driving up into the thick of a festival, to the scolding glare of a Caribinere. (Of course only registered cars are allowed in the old city at any time, let alone on streets closed for partying and parades.) By asking for directions (in our imperfect Italian) five or six times, we finally found our way - and learned a lot about Orvieto!

Thanks for the suggestion of Summertime-I hope to rent it this weekend. For the ultimate clash of the &quot;Itinerary Enamored&quot; versus the &quot;Itinerary Allergic&quot;, see another Hepburn classic, &quot;Two For The Road&quot;.

Two different Hepburns: Summertime is Katharine, Two for the Road is Audrey.

Don't you think that most of the questions posted by Americans on this European forum are done by those with the intention of sightseeing and that's the reason for all the itineraries? We're talking trip language as opposed to than vacation language.

Sure, if you're a Brit, there's a good chance you're doing Spain for your beach vacation. That's not so likely if you're from US or Canada--the warm beach destrination would more likely be Hawaii, Florida or all-inclusives (the ultimate in never having to plan)in the Carribean or Mexico. I guarantee you some of the most &quot;driven&quot; people on this board can do Beach Chair Potato. In that mode, one starts asking truly important itinerary questions like this:
&quot;Where can I get a good mojito?&quot; ;)

Cheerybomb said

&gt;In a similar vein, do Europeans obsess over pickpockets and hiding their belonging in leg safes, money belts and the like when they travel to the US or otherwise.

I am not trying to be snarky--I really am curious.&lt;

To be honest I'm not really sure. I know I don't but then I'm a city dweller(Glasgow), always feel really comfortable in any city I've been to and only take the same precautions as I would at home.

I'm sure at some point that attitude may come back and haunt me but I also think its partly that confidence that allows me gauge potential risks reasonably well.

I think I'll need to have a look at the US board and see if the same sorts of questions are asked by European travellers. Its possible I'm making a lot of assumptions people from this side of the pond that aren't supportable. Should have thought of that before really. :-)

Hi Josephina

I hear what your saying about the different styles of vacation. Millions of Europeans do exactly the same, two weeks on a beach by the Med chilling. Never been my cup of tea, sand gets everywhere lol!

&gt;&gt;o be honest I'm not really sure. I know I don't but then I'm a city dweller(Glasgow), always feel really comfortable in any city I've been to and only take the same precautions as I would at home.

I'm sure at some point that attitude may come back and haunt me but I also think its partly that confidence that allows me gauge potential risks reasonably well.&lt;&lt;

I do the same, but see so many threads on pickpockets and money safes and indestructible bags and such that I wonder if this is an American thing, a small city thing or what.

For people who don't like to sight-see, but only sit around in cafes people-watching or enjoying food, I've always wondered - what exactly do you do? Do you spend the day wandering from one cafe to the next? Don't you get tired (and risk DVT) by sitting so much?

We don't plan extensively if it's a place we've been to before, but we do not just sit around eating all day. I can do that at home (of course, we live in a metropolitan city with great food and interesting people to watch).

I'm a planner, and a Canadian, but thankfully married a man who likes to know that I have a plan, but who encorages and inspires me to put the plan aside for the day, mix up days, take a detour and throw the day out of the window, etc.

We tend to rent self catering cottages, apartments, etc. - and those you have to plan for. We almost always have a rental car which we book ahead. If there are travel days in between cottages we have a few options gleaned from sites like this, but unless it's some place like London, Venice, Paris, etc., we usually don't book. Same goes for trains or buses. And we never book restaurants from home; and hardly ever when we are 'there'. Being hungry and craving some particular food - or - not - never seems to be amenable to planning. I have tons of ideas for sight-seeing, we probably end up doing about a quarter of them.

Although I always plan - I'm hard-wired for it - I have found that how I use the plan depends a lot of who I'm travelling with. My husband, I've mentioned above. My sister-in-law never reads anything ahead of time and simply goes wherever I do. She's so laid back I basically do whatever I want to. She says she trusts me implicitly. It works out for both of us.

My sister is more anal-retentive than I am. She never goes on holiday to rest, she goes to experience everything she possibly can. She still wants me to do a plan, because I've travelled more she has, but since she gets up at 6 am and goes to bed around midnight, even I usually don't plan enough things. She is constantly picking up brochures, interrogating unsuspecting travellers, and cramming five or six more things into the plan. Travelling with her is exhausting, but exhilerating.

With our best friends, I have to have a secret plan. The male of the pair likes to be in charge - and wants to be spontaneous. If I don't object to his ideas, I go with the flow. He's so much fun to be with, that's more important. But if I'm feeling bossed around too much, I excuse myself and do what I'd like to do. After all these years, our friends just shrug their shoulders, explaining it as Mavis's need to have some 'I' time. Sometimes my husband comes with me, but usually he goes with the friends.

And I'm not sure 'planning' is an American phenomenon. I've come across lots of Americans in my travels who didn't have a clue what the local area had to offer. And didn't seem to care.

I've just thought of another justification for planning - it lets me enjoy the trip twice. And if I do a trip report - three times!!!

&gt;&gt;For people who don't like to sight-see, but only sit around in cafes people-watching or enjoying food, I've always wondered - what exactly do you do? Do you spend the day wandering from one cafe to the next? Don't you get tired (and risk DVT) by sitting so much?&lt;&lt;

people don't get DVT on the beach and they certainly sit around all day! :)

I am a cafe dweller. I wander around neighborhoods and stop to sit and have a glass or more of wine and read, people watch, chit chat. I certainly don't eat all day long. I also get up later in the day than some and stay out late at night in bars/clubs.

I also look in shops, take pictures, walk around, stop at things that look interesting.

I live in a cosmopolitan city as well, but it isn't the same sitting in an outdoor cafe in NYC as it is in Paris or Copenhagen or wherever. Same goes for an indoor cafe.

I have crowds (of tourists) to wade through just to go anywhere at home--I don't want to do the same on vacation. Likewise, I have museums at my disposal at home--my real goal is to relax, meet new people, see new things, get into another culture, etc.

Just my way of traveling.

Interesting! I wonder how many of the obsessive planners of their EU visit do the same with their day to day lives.

rickmav, you're right about all the travelers who arrive clueless. I always tell people that the $25 for a good guidebook is like trip insurance of the most obvious sort! It's a great bon-voyage gift for anyone making their first trip abroad.

I've been in Paris with people who really didn't know up from down (is it my fault that I did all the hotel hunting and making of lists of restaurants, etc? ;) ) Even if I were traveling with someone else who had done the planning, I'd want to know something about the neighborhoods and how to find my way here and there.

Here at home in NYC, I also talk with plenty of visitors (from the US and abroad) who seem not to have bothered to look at a map or guidebook, and so are more baffled than need be.

A plan, of course, is not an itinerary. Planning helps us know what's what, and helps us avoid needless backtracking or wasting time and money paying for extra transportation. Because whether you're a sightseer or a cafe-dweller (as opposed to a cave dweller), it's no fun spending hours waiting, or walking the wrong way, or finding yourself on the wrong side of town.

Speaking of cafe-dwelling, bennyby - I definitely land there in the middle: I want to see some of the sights and definitely have some items on my agenda. But I've learned that I'm in a lot better mood if I SIT DOWN for 15-20 minutes out of every 90 or so. (Not to mention the hour+ for lunch during siesta, the most civilized custom of the western world.) The pauses mean I don't wear out, get short-tempered or give up on the bare-bones itinerary I do have. When I miss the breaks ... well, I really miss them. The good thing is, all the walking means the 4 or 5 breaks for coffee or gelato or a glass of beer each day don't add up to much!