Credit card problem
 

I was in the UK in May and some businesses could not scan my cards with a magnetic strip. I was told the new EU standard is cards with embedded chips and some places no longer have the old scanners. Supermarkets, for example, had no facility to key in the card number directly.
Is this a problem on the continent, i.e. France?
Visa and AMEX told me they have no plans to issue this type of card.

I had no problem using my credit card at some bigger supermarkets in France last month. Nor any other kind of business where I'd use it -- like stores or restaurants. I don't try to use it for trivial small costs.

Just about every place in France will still accept cards with a magnetic strip. However, I do know of a few Chinese supermarkets who only accept chip & PIN cards.

We've had this discussion before here...

Chip and pin cards were mandated by the UK government about a year and a half ago and all merchant were required to get new terminals; however every one of the new terminals continue to have provisions for the use of the third world magnetic strip technology still found on US cards; the problem is the semi literate clerks do not have a clue...what you have to do is insist the card is good and if the semi literate clerk doesn't understand, insist on seeing the manager who will usually be able to demonstrate to the clerk what has to be done.

As noted, chip and pin technology is probably a long way off in the USA as the banks have probably done a study and found their losses due to credit card fraud are far less than the cost to replace all the terminals and all the cards with chip and pin technology.

In addition, the vast vast majority of credit card fraud does not come on retail purchases but rather on internet fraud.

So the simple answer is that if some semi literate clerk tells you your card is not good, insist it is and ask to see the manager.

I've just got back from the UK. I have a magnetic strip credit card still. I just said it was a swipe card not a pin card and there was never a problem with it. I was given a slip to sign as always. Supermarkets coped just fine.
Next month I get my nice shiny new Chip and Pin card. Everywhere will coninue to accept both types of cards until the magnetic strip is phased out.
Eventually the US will follow - it has been agreed worldwide that the chip and pin card will become the norm. No deadline has been set however.
Do folks with chip and pin cards have problems in the US? I assume not.

uh uh uh...

Nobody in the US has agreed to go the chip and pin route...as noted while I have no proof of this, US banks have probably decided the cost for new terminals as well as replacing all the cards would be far more than their losses due to fraud...

The eu, from what I understand, is pushing the use of chip and pin and has been working on establishing one standard...up to a point, I don't know if it has been rectified, a UK chip and pin would not work in a French chip and pin terminal.

But it will be along time, if ever, before the US is forced down the chip and pin route (in the same way a generation ago we were told the US would be embracing metric measurement and that hasn't happened and it won't in our lifetimes).

In France we encountered several places that were unfamiliar with our American swipe credit cards. In addition, they can not be used in automatic gas pumps and toll booths. We almost had to stay in an underground parking garage in Toulouse like Charlie on the MTA because our cards wouldn't work at the exit machines.

Most toll booths in France read magnetic strip cards, since no PIN is entered to pay a toll. Only the magnetic strip is read, even on French cards!

Tres interessant. I thought I had read a post here by someone who tried to use a US credit card at a toll booth and had to back out of the booth, so we didn't even try.

I volunteer to go back again and try it out, as a sacrifice in the name of science.

I had a number of issues in Europe this summer with my card not scanning. But in nearly every case, a few more tries and it would scan. Sometimes the person would just do it once and then say it wasn't working, so I'd have them do it another time or two. Sure enough, when I got home I was still having issues. Ordered a new card and no problems. Sometimes the problem is simply that your card is getting scratched or slowly demagnetizing! At least that was certainly my problem.

Some credit cards fail to work at toll booths, even French cards, if the magnetic strip is damaged in any way. This happens all the time to everybody's dismay (particularly the people behind the car with the problems). It has nothing to do with what country the card is from.

lonewolf - I think they were just not willing to be bothered. Your US-issued credit cards should work throughout the UK. Just because the majority of cards are chip and PIN doesn't mean mag strip cards don't work.

Just how many places would not take your card???

We were in Paris and Amsterdam for 2 weeks this summer. The only problem with our Canadian magnetic strip cards was trying to buy a ticket online for the train to Amsterdam.

You make the purchase on the site then need a chip card only to get your ticket from the machine at the station. No problem with purchase at a SNCF office.

Rob

No foreign credit cards can be used at automatic petrol pumps as far as I know. I have never been able to use mine at a French pump.
The mail we received from Visa regarding chip and pin stated that it has been agreed it will become the world wide standard. Since Visa is a US company I imagine they will eventually be introducing it in the US. Provided you protect your pin it has to be safer than the swipe cards.
So many people have had their cards skimmed, and very few places actually bother to check the signature. All this fraud costs the CC companies - reason enough for them to change.

Hi L,

As noted, your US card will work at any staffed facility.

You won't be able to use it to get gas on Sundays at unattended fuel pumps.

Nikki,
I thought one was supposed to pay at the machines near the exit and then insert the validated card at the exit gate, No?

((I))

Ira, unless I totally misunderstood (quite possible), there was just one set of machines and you were supposed to insert your credit card at the exit. We drove around the garage, found someone in an office and paid there.

Parking garages are extremely variable -- some of them require PIN numbers and others don't. The ones that don't will obviously take magnetic strip cards. There is no way to know upon entering which sort of method is used. One consolation is that parking lot machines are among the rare machines in France that take paper money for payment, if necessary.

Just returned from France and I can tell you that the toll booth will not take take a US card. I forgot and tryed to use my card once and backed everyone up until a lady came out to take my cash and let us thru. Just remember to use the cash lane. The same goes for parking lots, just use cash. The biggest problem with the parking lots is trying to figure out how to use the ticket machine.

I can confirm Bob_C's experience. We were in France in March 2007. We were able to use our U.S. credit card at several autoroute toll stations, but just when we thought it was safe we ended up at one near Lyon where it would not work. Due to our inadequate French it was a bit of a production calling on the intercom and trying to get someone to understand that the problem was not a bad card, but the wrong kind of card - all while cars backed up behind us. Eventually someone came out of a booth 3 lanes over and took our cash to pay for the toll, but I REALLY want a chip card for my next trip!

Ernie

Cash is not obligatory on the French autoroute because the attendant can take a chipless credit card. But one must choose a lane with an attendant in the booth.

There's a huge amount of confusion about all this.

Just about everywhere in Europe that's heavily dependent on tourists from foreign countries accepts the steam-age credit cards American technophobic banks issue.

But there are three kinds of places you're likely to have problems. And they can affect people from other European countries
- automated petrol pumps (and if you think that's a problem, try using any kind of credit card - modern or 18th century - in America if you don't have an American postcode). Earlier this year, I even had this problem at a French manned supermarket pettrol statin pay kiosk. The problem's severest in French supermarkets (esp Leclerc) because of a deeprooted cultutal refusal to invest capital in anything (hence the universal rusty trolleys) escept low prices
- some toll booths, and - bizarrely - some public transport ticket machines
- shops in out of the way places that don't depend on tourists (such as limited assortment discount supermarkets like Aldi or Lidl)

There's no point trying to predict this. And even less ranting about what they "should" do: they're under no obligation to deal with you if they don't want to, and under no commercial pressure to waste money on facilities a trivial minority of customers will ever need.

The problem crops up rarely. Just make sure you've always got €100 on you.

UK chip and pin cards (and presumably other non-French c&p cards) are now very widely accepted all over France. Carrefour and Auchan super(hyper)markets even have had their petrol pumps modified to take international (non-French) cards. One thing to bear in mind is that when paying, it normally takes a little longer (up to 30 sec or so) for the transaction to be authorised, so don't take out your card from card reader (or let an impatient staff do so) until 'attendre svp' display vanishes.

flanneruk...

I agree with everything you wrote except the phrase technophobic US banks...they are far from technophobic.

What is most important to them is the bottom line and they have done surveys and have come to the conclustion that it would cost more to institute the pin and chip technology than they lose in fraudulent purchases.....and while I agree chip and pin will cut down on fraud at the merchant level, they do nothing about the biggest use of fraudulent credit card numbers namely internet commerce...the chip and pin cards still have to allow their use on the internet without pins...and that's where the big money is being lost.

The eu is in the process of mandating use of chip and pin technology but while they possibly could mandate that only chip and pin cards be accepted, there would be screaming by many countries which have a large tourist trade and as long as the US banks put their profits ahead of the need to synch up with the rest of the world, the present situation will probably continue to exist indefinitely.

>..as long as the US banks put their profits ahead of the need to synch up with the rest of the world, ...<

Why would anyone even consider that "synching up" was more important than profits?

When it becomes cost beneficial to do so, the US will adopt whatever it is you guys prefer in the way of measurements, technology, fashion...but not until then. :)

((I))

ira, you forget that many seem to think that banks are just public services and are not businesses trying to make a profit. I'm appalled every time someone whines about a bank charging them 3 or 4 dollars for getting their money to them in a split second when they are in a foreign country thousands of miles away -- and in the local currency. I think that is an amazing service for such a small fee, but realize that most seem to think it should be done for free.

>becomes cost beneficial to do so, the US will adopt
Correct, and that's why the american way of life will destroy the planet. Let's party!

Did someone just suggest that German (and other) businesses don't care about making profits? Am I missing something here?
Only the "American way of life" promotes businesses making profit?

You didn't get that the "american way of life" values profit higher than a zillion of other goals of a company and a society. Profit is just a minor goal.

Yea. Right. ROTFLMAO at the idea that only American companies do that.

It's the core of "american management ideology" and has been creeping around the planet from there. It has been rather alien to continental european thinking (at least for the last 150 years), but there still are quite a lot of companies over here that do business "the old way".

It seems to me that American banks have by-passed the chip and pin by going to debit cards and pin. I use my account at ABN-AMRO in NL when in Europe. My ABN-AMRO Werldpass Maestro card has the chip. It is accepted everywhere.

If the "old way" means that German banks do not consider "cost beneficial" before instituting expensive programs, then I am still ROTFLMAO.
You are indeed an idealist, logos.

Well, the country (my little socialist paradise :D ) does well. You realise how different people are once you travel abroad. The "american psyche" is indeed fundamentally different from "ours" even though many people have a similar physical appearance. ;-)
Anyway...

logos, my point is that Deutschebank never did anything without determining the cost effectiveness of it first. You may choose to believe otherwise if you wish, but you would be wrong. Of course, we all already know that EVERYTHING in the US is BAD and everything in Germany or Europe is GOOD. You've made that clear about a million times. Carry on.

but logos friend, there are many things American that have been embraced especially in Germany (although some such as Wal-Mart have indeed flopped).

McDonald's and other fast food places are marvelled at by most Europeans I know for their efficiency (especially in Great Britain where they are jammed with locals as well as Germany)...now we've foisted Subway on Germany and judging from one of your posts you enjoy it as do many other Germans where they are doing well.

In matters of banking, I will agree there are differences....in the USA I just finished a 1 week holiday on the left coast and only once did I have to pay cash for anything...everything else from parking, fast foods, gas, admissions was put on my credit cards...no questions asked, no silly rules about minimums. I could also pretty much do the same thing in the UK now but wouldn't count on it in Germany...cash still seems to rule there.

The blunt fact is, as I said, while I have no doubt chip and pin cards do cut down a bit on fraud at the merchant level, I don't see where it helps with the major theft rings that operate via the internet. A year ago at this time, I got a call from my bank whether I had charnged $8,000 worth of video equipment...I said no...somehow, and I am careful, my number had been compromised, probably in a restaurant. Who ended up eating the $8,000 I don't know.....I didn't.

Rather than the chip and pin technology what would help is for the US restaurant industry to be required to have those little terminals they bring to your table at many places in Europe to pay for meals...obviously required once they adopt chip and pin for the customer to enter his or her pin.

Now that would deter some of the credit card theft.

Here's an online article about "chip and pin" - author explains that there are security issues yet to be solved, though both the UK and the French systems has been more or less effective.

http://tinyurl.com/29qa86

Author of this article finds MANY problems with the c&p :
http://www.vigay.com/misc/chipandpin.html

In 2006 Shell Petroleum had to shut down the c&p pads at their UK pumps due to fraud:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4980190.stm

Th article below shows how researchers have createda hack of the system in the UK. Also, they say the system is incompatible with others (in the rest of Europe?)
http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6156601.html

I've read that some American cards are already including the chip, but have no evidence at hand. Copnsumers are not the problem - Americans are quite accustomed to entering a pin code when using our bank ATM cards for purchases, and there are few places where entering a pin is not an option at checkout. Does anyone have experience trying to use an ATM card at one of these terminals in Europe or UK? I've read on one site that pins on US cards are not recognized (possibly the absence of that chip.)
As for American banks' reluctance, be assured that it is not technophobia - whether they are looking for the specific technology to improve or for terminals etc to become more affordable to businesses I can't say. But ANYTHING that will compel more customers to use their card rather than someone else's will be tried - when and if it is determined that C&P is the next thing to do that, it will happen. Banks - both in the US and in the EU (as if there is much separating them today) are interested in marketing their products; to the degree that "more secure" is a marketing tool, they'll try anything.

But before excoriating the banks (not that I'm any pal of the credit card purveyors, whose cheap and easy intro rates lure millions of us into dangerous levels of debt) I would ask, for clarification: didn't the change take place in the UK because of government fiat? It wasn't the banks and business who mandated the change, but a legal regulation - isn't that right? But I understand that the vending machine industry is HOT to get the C&P system going, so it could be arriving soon at a ticket kiosk near you.

In any case, the UK system has been going since just 2003, and it seems "not unlikely" that it is still being "perfected" - if perfect security is possible. It's also likely, given the tech marketplace and research speed, that another technology, built on and maybe leapfrogging the C&P and EV systems, is in development.

There are controversial aspects: for one, the switch c&p transfered fraud liability from the credit card issuers to the retailers directly under UK law.

The point isn't banks or restaurants or whatever may be different. That may be as it is or not, who cares about that, right. The point is a entirely different view of how a society works together. It is deemed "socialism" by some and "freedom" by others. The US and Europe exist on different planets. I'm quite sure, it's totally impossible to understand the "other" society and vice versa. It's rather futile, trying to explain the difference.

>EVERYTHING in the US is BAD
Yep, everything that constitutes "the american way of life" is indeed bad. Not for the individual, I too like (love) to waste as much of the planets resources. And I'm doing my best to do so, but then it's bad for each and every society on the planet.

logos...

I think you generalize a bit too much comparing American against European viewpoints.

I have many friends who live in London....quite frankly, much to the chagrin of their elders, they tell me all the time there is hardly any difference between life in London (when I visit them) as opposed to life in New York (when they visit me) except for prices....even before the tanking of the US$, prices in New York were almost half of the prices in London for many things...now they tell me a trip to New York and a bit of shopping pays for the trip! But the point is, that life in Britain in many respects has gravitated towards life in the USA...visit a shopping center (or mall) in the UK, and you see exactly what you see in an American mall, like it or not. You have teen age boys running around with baseball caps on backwards, hooded sweatshirts (these have been banned in some malls).....again much to the chagrin of their elders, much of life in Britain has been Americanized (the closeness of the two languages help this also of course)...

While I cannot get the same sense in Germany and France, of course onas has to start out with language differences.

But global technologies are such that all societies are merging towards a more common middle, especially in the West (which is one of the things Fundamentalists in the Middle East claim as one of their reasons for jihad) and the distinctions have begun to blur a bit!

Hi logos...

But that's the price we all have to pay for many of the modern convenieces we all enjoy.

And I would never say everything in Germany is bad....I love the beer...I love the trains...I love Munich (despite the fact I can't speak a word of German and always feel out of sorts there)...and from reading some of your posts, I remember you saying something to the effect you loved visiting many places in the USA. (or so I think).