Credit Card Fraud in Paris
 

My husband and I returned from our first trip to Paris about a month ago. We used a combination of euros and credit cards to pay for daily expenses. Yesterday we were contacted by Visa and asked if we purchased $1800 worth of furniture on Monday at a store in Paris. Of course my husband told them that we returned from our trip almost a month ago and that it was not our purchase. Luckily we are not being held responsible for the charges and our account has been cancelled. I still find it somewhat disturbing that our information was stolen so easily. I was under the impression that it was safe to use credit cards in Europe. Yes, I know that there is always a possibility of this occurring, but I am just curious as to how many others this has happened to while traveling in Europe?

Beth,
Your card number could just as easily been stolen at home. In fact, it might even be easier than someone doing so in Europe because an $1,800 charge here, might not be flagged by your card company.

Someone stealing your credit card number, or getting your ATM pin code, happens countless times everyday in this country.

Sophisticatd thieves have been known to put false face plates on ATM machines in this country. You put in your card, type in your pin and get told "sorry, out of order." Meanwhile, you've just downloaded your information to the crook who got a scan of your card. Store employees and waiters across the US have been busted for setting up a scanner that gets used to warehouse card numbers as their putting through legitimate charges.

Not to be blunt, but assuming credit cards are "safe", either in Europe or here, ignores reality. Numerous consumer advocate groups and the card companies themselves have warned to be aware of the risk.

I am sorry this happened, but I could tell you countless stories of the same thing happeneing to people I know in the US. Just be glad your credit card company was sharp enough to recognize fraudulent use and you are not responsible. Using credit cards in Europe is just as safe (or unsafe) as using them here.

Ryank makes the point...it goes on all over the world; especially in big cities. Several years ago a clerk in Bloomingdale's in NY was busted because she had one of those scanners which she used to capture cc #'s and then sold them to the low lifes, primarily located in the former Soviet Union and also in Nigeria but found all over the world, for no good purposes.

You don't even need a scanner. You hand a clerk your cc and he or she memorizes the 16 numbers, the expiration date and the joke of a security code on the back. Voila within minumtes one of these pieces of garbage have your number and that is what they are the lowest form of scum.

Unfortunately or fortunately this is no reason to stop using your cc's. You are not responsible for these charges.

There is little you can do about it no matter what others say. So, you have just joined the very large group of people who have experienced this. In a couple of days, you'll have a new credit card number and that will be the end of it.

no, I have never had a problem. Where did you use your credit cards, exactly, can you summarize?

I agree there's no indication that where a charge is made is where the number was stolen (in fact, many bogus charges are from outside US as they are given the numbers by those working in the US and they have less legal ramifications, etc.). HOwever, this one does sound suspicious to me since the furniture store was in Paris and you were in Paris.

There are different habits regarding use of CCs, money, etc., in Europe. Some people advocate using CCs for virtually everything and even want to use them for very minor charges like metro tickets, drinks, museum admissions, etc. I don't do that myself, not only because it's more trouble to use one for minor costs, but just because I don't want my card number being used at so many places and taken by so many people, and also because I don't like keeping track of the slips, comparing to my bills, etc.

I only use mine for major purchases -- hotel bills, large train fares, large store purchases and meals over about 30 euro.

OK, I guess I was a little naive to think I was "safe" by using a credit card while traveling. Since it is widely considered unsafe to carry a lot of cash around also, I guess it is a no win situation in terms of your chances of being stolen from. I fully understand that it can happen anywhere at any time, but given that this was the first time that it ever happened to me (and I was in Paris at the time) made me wonder if it was more prevalent in Europe since tourists are often targets for theft. In retrospect, it is probably just a coincidence that my first experience with credit card theft happened to occur in Paris.

It happen to me in England. Very stange in did.
A travel agency accepted as a firm reservation an agenda sheet faxed with my CC number and signature. The senders of the fax have never showed up, but the Travel Agent decided to charge my CC for the reservation.
I refused to pay and was later released from all charges and a new CC with a new number was delivered to me.

Another reason why it's important to call your credit card companies and tell them you'll be in Europe, and for how long!

Christina, the law of averages may somewhat favor you following your credit-card use "rules," but it certainly doesn't make you immune from the danger. CC theft can happen almost anywhere any time.
And, BethG, look on the bright side. Your credit card company caught the illegal activity with the result that you only suffered the inconvenience of having get a new card.

strass:

I know that is a common so called precaution people urge and there is nothing to lose doing it....

however, once I called a cc company to do this and I was told they would take the information to make me happy but the computer might flag what it considers suspicious charges anyway. And besides that, the clerk told me, how do we know you're not the thief.

So this person called to tell them they would be in Paris and the number was stolen in Paris. A couple of days later an authorization comes in from Paris for a large amount....while it might seem suspicious there is a notation on the account you will be in Paris. Perhaps it doesn't ring the same bell as this one did.

Again not saying not to do it but given the large amount of this sh-t going on, it is not going to do all that much good.

I was (and am still) under the impression that credit cards are safer than other forms of payment, because you can dispute charges on your statement. Is it up to the merchant or the merchant's back to prove that it was you who authorized the charges, by providing a signed transaction slip with your signature on it? I don't know how it works. But in this example, Beth_G was not out any money in the end (probably the merchant was the one who got stiffed because they didn't check to see that the signature on the card matched the sales slip)

Hi beth,

The important thing about CCs is not that they aren't safe, but that you are not held responsible for fraudulent use by others.

Beware of using your ATM/debit card as if it were a CC. The money comes out of your bank account, and it is more difficult to get it back.

Thank you for your lecture, Howard, but I have a Master's in statistics and think I know about the law of averages. I never said my habits made me immune from anything. I just said that was my preference for using a credit card and, frankly, most of it is not because of fear of theft, but because I find it easier to pay cash for minor things and not keep track of all the charges, as I said.

At least I know if someone steals my credit card number, I'll eventually get my money back. If someone steals my cash, I know I won't.

When I called the credit card company to tell them to expect charges from abroad, they asked me for the countries in which I would be traveling and the date of return. This can be useful information. If the charge had been $100, would Visa have contacted the card owner?

Whoa, Christina, relax. I was hardly giving you a lecture, just offering a reaction to your comment. Period.

Would visa have contacted the card holder for a $100 charge; probably not but so what.

When the bill arrived, youl would have seen the fraudulent activity and dealt with it. In the interim, you would have had the car to use.

See here's a problem....you're on a trip and it is discovered your card may be being used fraudulently. So the bank tries to get in touch with you.

Several things can happen

1. The bank can't get in touch with you. You're away and don't have call answering or forwarding or anything like that. So what happens? At some point when you don't respond, they put a block on the account. So you go in to a restaurant, give them your cc and the machines comes back do not honour. At that point you have to call the company; perhaps no fraud is involved so all is well but you still had the embarassing episode. If fraud is involved, they will close the account and it may or may not be easy to get another card with a different account number. In any event a pain.

2. They get in touch with you and you discover fraud has occurred. See #1 above.

3. OTOH you get home, receive a bill with fraudulent charges. You of course dispute them and it unfortunately is som rampant in this day and age that it is almost trite to see it's no big deal. You have to get an affadavit with listing the fraudulent charges but they will be removed and you will have to wait a day or two for a new card with a different number. Not quite as bad being caught cardless at home n'est ce pas.

Look, it is a big problem, there is not the slightest question about it and it has happened to me so I know what it feels like.

But that doesn't mean I'm not going to use my cc's and I believe very strongly in using them any place they are taken and for any amount. I hate those places that suddenly tell you there is a minimum purchase necessary for using a credit card.

In Paris, I have used my credit cards to charge a single metro ticket of €1.10, in London, I have no problem with using the card to buy a couple of bottle of soda pop for £1.19.

At least in the United States, I know it is illegal to either set a minimum purchase price for using a credit card which is a MC/Visa regulation. This is appaprently not allowed in the UK and as far as France is concerned, several years ago they had a strike of the drivers who delivered bank notes to the banks and it suddenly became difficult to get bank notes even at banks (some people erroneously believe this was only a problem for ATM's). So the French managed by dropping the silly requirements for use of a credit card and you know what; they discovered cc's are a very convenient safe way to do business.

If you are likely to be embarrassed by having a charge declined, you probably shouldn't have a credit card. Keep in mind that the card issuing institutions (like everything else) are in fact run by a bunch of 19-year old girls on Quaaludes. Mistakes happen. Frequently.

>...run by a bunch of 19-year old girls ...


Oh, you'd better duck, Robespierre.

xyz - not sure that it is actually illegal (as in against the law) to establish a minimum charge for credit card use. It is, though, usually a policy established by the CC companies and supposedly agreed to by merchants, but it must not be very frequetly enforced, as I often see signs designating a minumum at various merchants. I've never been bothered enough to report a merchant, wonder if anyone else on the board has?

In the USA, merchant agreements with Visa/MC specifically outlaw 2 practices:

1. Establishing a minimum for use of a credit card.

2. Charging a surcharge for use of a credit card (although cash discounts are allowed...some day somebody will explain the difference).

Anyway, I have a written statement from Visa stating it is illegal to establish a minimum for use of a credit card. From time to time, I have run into merchants trying to pull this garbage. I take out the statement from visa and for the most part the merchant grumbles but complies. Several times they have refused and I have reported them to visa. In one case, I went back several weeks later and saw the sign they had put up about minimum charges had been removed.

Discover does not have this policy. Amex has a no discrimination policy i.e. you can't not allow minimums on one credit card and try to have minimums on Amex. Obviously, therefore, if a merchant takes MC/Visa in the USA, he cannot establish a minimum for Amex.

I find this minimum policy reprehensible as in this day and age, cc transactions are safer and probably faster than cash transactions. With a cc transaction, you don't have to worry about keeping cash in registers, sticky fingers of employees, arguments about change etc. Also, I resent when I go into a grocery, and a little old lady in front of me upon being told a transaction costs $14.38, first looks into her porkcet book, counts out a $10 bank note, then $4 single bank notes, tries to see if she has $.38 in change, decides she doesn't and then gives another dollar. Contrast that with swiping your cc, getting authorization (seconds now) signing a charge slip and you're on your way.

From what I have been told, UK law does not allow cc companies to prevent merchants from establishing minimums or surcharging cc's. That is why some merchants do have minimums which are a pain in the rear end as far as I am concerned.

Philosophically, when a merchant takes cc's, the surcharge paid to the cc company is included in the price. Therefore, if I go to a store and pay cash, I am paying for the cc surcharge the merchant has put across the board any way. When travelling, it is far easier to use a cc and not have to worry about constantly going to the ATM.

When I arrive in London, I pull £20 out of the ATM and use the cc for the tube trip into central London, for lunch at places such as Pizza Hut, McD's, chinese and indian restaurants. The Pret a Manger just off Leicester Square now takes cc's. Snacks I pick up at stores such as M&S, and several of the grocery chains. They take cc's.

About the only places that don't take cc's in London are pubs for drinks (many take them for food), refreshments at the theatre (the TKTS booth takes cc's), internet cafes. It's hard to think of any other places that don't take cc's. The £20 withdrawal can last 3 or 4 days at least for me.

Credit card is still the best way to go in Europe. I have still had restaurants double charge me and hope I do not notice it on my bill. Say your bill is $43.55...not a large amount. They hit you with that same charge....twice. If you notice it and report it, they say "honest mistake". If you do not they just doubled their revenue.

Interesting. I was unaware that they couldn't require a minimum for use of a CC. I know I've seen many signs requiring such, but maybe that's been a while. My own standard is $15. Otherwise I pay cash. I always use my CC at the grocery and recently I stopped there for something and got distracted while it was being rung up by talking to someone I knew in line behind me. By impulse I swiped my Credit Card, signed and headed home. That's when I realized I had just charged $1.29.

I'm generally not a credit card person and only use it for major expenses (hotel bill) in Europe. I'm guessing statistically the more you use it the greater the chance that someone will get ahold of the number and misuse it (shopping, restaurants, etc)?

I'm also willing to bet that getting my credit card number would be a lot easier than stealing cash off my person. I am comfortable carrying ~$300-400 at a time and go to an ATM every few days.

Just think Patrick of the 1 frequent flyer mile you just earned!

Seriously though cc transactions today are much quicker than cash transactions with the cc swipe terminals. As I understand it, McD's, BK and Wendy's intend to have almost all of their stores on line in the very near future.

Interestingly enough, fast food outlets don't require signatures on cc charges just like self service gas stations do not. Surprising enough, I bought tickets at the Natinal Theatre to see History Boys during my last trip a couple of weeks ago and they didn't require a signature either. Funny, though, as London seems to be one place where most of the time, the clerks actually look at the signatures on the cards. With swipe terminals so prevalent, signature checking is becoming scarcer and scarcer. As a matter of fact, there are lots of machines in the underground in London that take cc's now and don't require a signature.

But Suze...not to criticize you as you are certainly entitled to your opinions and beliefs, as I said, even if they compromise your cc number, you won't be out any money and as this kind of theft is so prevelent unfortunately it is not a major hassle to resolve if it happens. Lose cash, and it's gone. Get ripped off with change, deliberately or more likely accidentally and you're out the cash.

Just my opinion of course. Can't picture a world where I would actually have to pay cash for gasoline, groceries, meals, mobile phone bills, auto tolls (e-z pass), local transportation (NYC subways take cc's for metrocards), utilities. And oh those frequent flyer miles!

xyz, you are absolutely correct- about being able to undo a credit card problem over stolen cash, should those situations present themselves. i've often posted what works best when you travel is what works for you at home, and yes i pay cash or write a check for the items you mention (old fashioned, i know).

The comment though from beth was that she "though" it was safe to use a cc in Europe. Yes, of vourse as millions of us living here do. What happened to you could have happened on a trip to NY, LA etc. Just being in europe does not mean you are more open to fraud. Using your car or atm will always open us to fraud but its better than getting mugged and losing all out cash and well being. Use your cards and just be aware if you think something is funny about a transaction.

Credit card fraud costs all of us sooner or later, just as shoplifting does, so I am reading the suggestions to avoid it with great interest.

On a related note: This last trip, I ran across at least two hotels that tried to tell me that they would take a CC to secure the reservation, but strongly implied that they would only take cash as payment. Others may have a different perspective, of course, but to me this seems an abusive, 'free-loader' practice. The hotels in question are using the services of the CC, and then ensuring that they never have to pay a cent for the service. They are offloading the costs of CCs to other businesses that do collect payment for the CC company. I was annoyed enough that I took my business elsewhere. By the way, later I discovered that one of the hotels had a restaurant where CCs were taken as payment, so clearly they were set up to handle CCs. (In fact, I've stayed at 4-room BandBs that take CCs.)

Regarding contacting one's CC company before travel, it is true that the CC needs proof that the person calling is not the thief. I have always been required to give a password as proof - I am surprised to hear that some CCs have no such procedure in place.

Well let me just give you the other side of the contact your cc company before travelling. Again, please understand, I am not saying it is not a good idea or whatever but...

Three or four years ago, I was in Paris and when I got home I noted there were3 $2,000 charges on my credit card from a French internet company.

I had to go through the procedure; it was a bit of a pain as I use that credit card to pay things such as my mobile phone bill, my ezpass account, my local phone bills but okay I dealt with it.

I wondered at that time that if I had not told them I would be in France, would the first such charge have raised the caution flags? But obviously they knew I was in France as there were lots of restaurant, metro and souvenir charges coming through.

As I said, I was told that the computers are programmed to look for suspicious charges outside of whatever your usual pattern is. I travel all the time so I figure my usual hotels, restaurant, airline charges are not raising alarms in the computer so I don't bother notifying the cc companies. Besides which I have remote call forwarding from my home phone to my mobile phone so presumably the cc company, if it had suspicions, could get in touch with me.

However, and I tried to make this point and again read it and take it for what it is worth, sometimes you are 'better off" not discovering the fraud until you return home. You are not responsible anyway (and it really doesn't matter if it is $180 or $18,000, the procedures are all the same) and at least you will still be able to use the cc of your choice. OTOH if they or you discover fraud, that means the card has to be cancelled and a new card with a new number issued...they may or may not be able to get your new card to you while you are away. So at least you will be able to continue using your card and sort the whole thing out when you get home. This might or might not be important to you if you have, for example, frequent flyer miles or other rewards coming to you.

I know, it seems ludicrous to say it, but it is far easier to resolve such issues from home than on the road.

Not that I would want this to happen to me or anybody else.

Europe is now moving to chip & pin - soon everyone will need to type in a PIN number as well as present a card when making a purchase.My new card should be here any day.
They are spending all this money because the current system is heavily compromised, but no worse, I think, than in the US.
Any similar change coming to the US?I know you are conservative about changes to your money, can't believe the dollar bill still exists, but something has to change.
Only card I ever had a problem with was a corporate AMEX which someone charged a stay in a luxury hotel in Eire to.
One phone call & they immediately agreed not to charge it, their attitude was that it happens all the time.

This happened to us in Aruba. The only time we had used the specific card was at a restaurant. Visa said they must have wrote down the number and information from the card when we paid and then used it to buy large ticket items. We weren't responsible, but it is still a pain in the butt!!

What's really astounding to me is that there's any "stolen number" or "stolen card" card fraud whatsoever. Merchants all know (or should, if their IQ exceeds room temperature) that they are responsible for disputed charges that don't bear the cardholder's signature. Therefore, it is incumbent upon them to verify that a charge is being made by the cardholder. It should be an integral part of the payment process, like looking for counterfeit currency. "Spending sprees" on stolen cards/numbers is simply incredible to me.

(Dishonest merchants, now <i>that</i> I can understand.)

This strory may be of interest:

Google Search Reveals Credit-Card Numbers

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...16/tc_nf/26967

A true story of a credit card theft in France that occurred more than 5 but less than 10 years ago. The numbers may be slightly different because my memory, not my veracity, may be slightly suspect.

A well-travelled client and friend of mine on a crowded street in Aix-en-Provence was surrounded and jostled by a group of giggling, young girls who managed to remove her billfold from her purse. She realized almost immediately what had happened and went to the police to report it and called the CC company from the police station. Since my friend had other CCs with her and was travelling on a flexible schedule she didn't ask MC (through BankOne) to issue a new card.

That same day a charge was made at a jewellers for about $700. Over the next TWO weeks a substantial number of charges were made, first in Aix and then in Avignon. All were less than $70 and the charges for the two weeks amounted to about $4000. In the next two weeks an additional $3000 in the same size charges were made in Marseille.

As her broker I had access to the account and asked BankOne how charges could continue to be made after the loss had been reported. The answer: the system didn't flag the reported loss of the card until the end of the business day. Obviously, the thieves knew that and made a substantial purchase with an unscrupulous jeweller on the first day. The other charges over the next four weeks were below the threshold that required an OK from the system. The thieves had plently of time and experience in forging signatures.

I never did know the outcome but one day the charges stopped and all the fraudelent charges were removed. I'm sure current procedures are much improved.

Wow, that is rough for the merchants. You would think that merchants would ask for some ID for some major purchases like expensive jewelry, <i>especially</i> when made on a foreign credit card. I guess this is why when I was at an FNAC in Paris, I was asked for my passport to verify my identity when I made a purchase (a small one no less) with my Mastercard.

goatee, I suspect that at least some cc fraud is perpetrated by either the merchants themselves, or by dishonest employees.

There is simply no way a merchant in his right mind would take a high-ticket purchase without photo id, signature verification, and (if I were the merchant) a blood sample.

I do know that what makes the card issuers spend millions of dollars every year exhorting you to eat your carbon copies is the rogue merchant scenario. It's explained here: http://www.fodors.com/forums/pgMessa...p;tid=34466918

My understanding is that various credit companies have a rule that the merchants aren't allowed to ask for extra ID. They can only compare the two signatures.

Here's the deal as I understand it...

If the card is copied, and these low lifes have the ability to do that, the card is swiped and a valid authorization number is obtained and the signature on the card is checked, the merchant is not responsible.

OTOH internet merchants who enter a number without swiping the card are responsible.

The signature has to be that of the cardholder. If it's not, the merchant eats the charge if it's disputed. For this reason, merchants can ask for a driver's license, passport, or birth certificate if they want to.

I have been a credit card merchant since 1992.