Considering moving to London - would LOVE input from charming Brits
 

My husband and I have been divinely inspired. We're Canadian, currently living in beautiful downtown Toronto...and we're newlyweds. I'm on the verge of being downsized out of a job, which is not such bad news...is actually the inspiration for the move we're considering to London.

We want to see more of the world, enjoy other cultures, travel throughout Europe over the next couple years before children enter the picture.

So...what we're looking for is any advice you can offer to help make this crazy dream a little more concrete. Some questions that are popping into our heads, for starters, are:

How easy is it to get a job BEFORE moving to London?

Where, oh where, should we consider living (letting) in London (keeping in mind, we like the arts, conversion buildings are cool, won't have a car so MUST be near tube)?

Is it possible to find a safe, nice, furnished 1 (ideally 2) bedroom flat for 1000 pounds/month with easy transport to downtown?

What expenses should we expect in addition to rent (utilities, etc)?

Any Web sites you'd recommend?

What questions SHOULD we be asking?

Thank you so much for any info you can share. In exchange, we'd be glad to offer any advice on Toronto living, to those interested...May even have a deal on a downtown apartment if all goes as planned! ;)

1000GBP is 250GBP per week, for that amount you would be lucky to get a well located studio flat, or perhaps a two bed in a very poor location and state of repair.

Cost of living will be much much higher than Toronto. Council taxes are high, and on the up. Water rates, electricity and phone bills I'm sure are more expensive than in Toronto.

As for the job situation, unless you are currently with an international firm who will offer you employment in their London offices. If you have good university education, or are in the medical profession it may be hard to find well paid employment.

Perhaps, if possible you could organise employment before the transition then maybe a mortgage, although I think you will be best suited to stay in Toronto, realistically speaking. If you had some capital behind you, say in excess of a quarter of a million GBP you would be able to make a large deposit on an apartment, rather than have to pay an huge mortgage.

Good luck, and I hope some other people can offer you more advice.

Ben Haines apart, most of us Brits don't do charm. Understanding that is the real key to living here.

If you can get citizenship of an EU country, the next bit doesn't apply
Otherwise. you need to start at the UK highly skilled migrant programme (http://www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk/def...sp?PageId=2757).

With a degree and a few years' professional experience, you can get a visa that allows to to work here (though the system is struggling to process applications right now).

Otherwise, you need to find an employer who'll swear you have skills that can't be found among the 400 and odd million people of the 30 or so countries in the EEA (25-member EU plus a few).Few will. Illegal employment is just not an option.

Unemployment in the UK is just about the lowest in the rich world, and declining. Depending on your skills, getting a job shouldn't be your problem.

Realistic cost-of-living expectations will be. For £1000 a month you can get a 1 or 2 bedroom flat. Safety is rarely a meaningful issue in London. You're highly unlikely to find a flat anywhere with a high risk of mugging or physical attack, but burglary is a near-certainty wherever you live (burglars generally hate robbing a house with people in at the time. We've only once been burgled while we were in the house. London burglars are almost always reluctant to engage in physical assault of any sort). There is absolutely nowhere in London that is not prone to burglary.

The problem at £1000 a month is that the (at that price dismal, though these days generally clean-ish) flat is likely to be a 10-15 minute from the tube in a part of London that would depress most of us, and a further 30 mins from central London.

You really have, IMHO, to expect to pay a considerable amount more, or look to living somewhere else

Perhaps I can provide a little perspective. An acquaintance of mine married her British boyfriend and moved to London about a year ago. She came back recenlty for a visit and I got the lowdown from her (I always thought it would be fun to live in London.) She did not have a problem getting a job once she got there (she has very specific sklls) but she said salaries/finances are a real issue. Compared to New York (which I know is much more expensive than Toronto - but at least some persepective) salaries are quite low (at leasat 1/3 less for the same job - although she said a lot less work is required) but the cost of almost everything is very high. She said any appliance/ household goods (linens etc) are almost double what they are in the US. Also, food (from the supermarket) is VERY expensive - in the absolute - not just comparatively. As for the real estate market she said the prices are comparable to New York - which means a 1-bedroom apartment is a middle class area not TOO far from the center would start at about US$2500 per month (unfurnished). (Oh, and she said kitchens are tiny and usually don't have full-size appliances - but tiny versions of everything - like boat refrigerators.) If you want more info perhaps you can search for London rental properties on-line - I'm sure someone here on the board can suggest some likely neighborhoods.

Hope this helps provide some perspective.

There's a new UK work visa program for well-educated Americans making more than $50k a year--not sure if it applies to Canadians as well.

I don't have details, but you'll be able to get some info on it at www.americanexpats.co.uk.

Ann41:

There's no programme for well-educated Americans. To have one, absent a reciprocal programme by the US, is clearly impossible.

There is, however, a programme for any Highly Skilled Migrants, of any nationality. Canadians, just like Americans, Indians or Chinese, may apply.

See my reference above.

Another possibility is the UK Right of Abode, for which Canadians may be eligible. Canadians can get this if one or both parents are British (being born in Canada to a British parent does NOT necessarily give you the right to a British passport). With the UK Right of Abode stamp in your Canadian passport you have the same rights as a UK citizen to apply for any job in the UK. (My husband has this, which is why we are moving to the UK; even though his mother is British, he would NOT have been eligible for the Right of Abode if he'd been born in the US; the country of birth has to be Commonwealth). A Canadian with the Right of Abode who resides in the UK for a certain amount of time can then apply for a British passport, which opens up all of the EU. If only one of you has the Right of Abode the other can get permanent residence through other methods (spousal visa), but the right to work bit then is trickier.
All that said, London has a lot of drawbacks--salaries are surprisingly low, housing costs high and often of somewhat questionable quality...have you considered starting your UK life in another city? Newcastle? Birmingham? York? None of those offer all that London does, of course, but you may find other aspects of them appealing.
We STRONGLY suggest you contact a legal professional who specializes in immigration because it's very easy to make a mistake that could thwart your plans. While getting his Right of Abode stamp, my husband saw how some other applicants (in different circumstances) were asked seemingly innocent questions that ended up with being denied the right to long term residency in the UK. Once you've been rejected, it's much harder to get the decision changed. Better to have a professional help you get things right the first time around.
Keep your fingers crossed. Despite all the dire predictions about getting a work permit, in the last three years, companies in Belgium and Switzerland were able to get me work permits, even though I'm American.
Anyway, here is one possible source of help:
http://www.webbimmigration.com/uk_re...p_overview.htm

Hi there - congrats on your recent marriage for a start! (I'm due to be wed in July this year, following my future husbands mumbled proposal in Milan this year!)

This may seem a bit obvious, but have you considered a holiday to London and the rest of England just to get a feel of the place? You may not like the reality once you have been there, or you may feel the opposite! Good luck whatever you choose.

All this "romance", and sweet sentiment, how nauseating. Please pass me a bucket, much obliged.

I think m_kingdom didn't read the title of the post. It said "would LOVE input from charming Brits". I'm not sure why he bothered to post, since he certainly doesn't fit into the "charming" category.

Patrick, I was thinking the same thing myself, however, I am charming when asked sensible questions, such as this one which is so utterly relevant to this forum. I dislike ones asking "what should I wear?". People with such insecurites as clothing should never be allowed to travel. These people wishing to relocate to another place are willing to toss their whole security and way of life aside, slightly more important and far more interesting than "should i pack a wool or down coat?" Let's prioritise here, perhaps Fodors would like to start a separate fashion forum to be inhabited by always out of vogue wannabe fashionistas?

To be honest, m_kingdom I read your first reply to this question and found it amazingly civil, (how unlike you) but wondered why you had to return to your "nasty" old self for your second post. I didn't find anything that called for the "bucket" as you put it. I missed the part where it turned into a debate on what to wear, I guess, so I didn't get your "nauseating" comments.

m_kingdom, you can always opt NOT to answer.

Brim -- that was some of the best advice given to anyone lately. LOL

;)

I apologise on behalf of all otherwise charming Brits :D

I assume the 'pass the bucket' comment was directed at me for giving my congrats to a newly wed couple. What a sad and lonely person, one who cannot be happy for someone else.

I think he doesnt like me (ahhh, how awful) because I picked up on his spelling when he posted an obnoxious reply a few days ago. (By the way, Kingdom, what exactly is 'insecurites'? go back to school or grow up

EnglishOne, don't take it personally. From m_kingdom's posts on this board, I don't think he likes anyone.

And we've diverted the message from the original topic so let's get back to it. clarbas, I wish you well and hope you can figure out how to accomplish it. Sounds like a dream come true to me and something I'd like to try someday if I could take care of family responsibilities.

Carol, he's a sad case isn't he? He (or is it she?) is what we would call over here, a w*nker!!
;)

You do realize that m_kingdom gets a kick out of causing the rest of us to react to his demeaning barbs. The best we could do is not to rise to his bait. He would soon get fed up with being ignored.

clgarbas:

To return to your subject, which might interest you more than who's morally superior to mkingdom:

- we've established getting a job in Britain isn't really the problem: living on the salary might be. Property prices, and their relation to average earnings, are a serious problem in London (where in most other respects the cost of living isn't seriously different from the rest of the UK, though there are localised pockets of exceptionally expensive local taxes, or exceptionally cheap petrol). It's a problem that seems to hit people in your position most - youngish people moving in from areas where property's cheaper.
- for identical jobs, London salaries aren't proportionately higher (though there are more high-salary jobs in London, which is one of the reasons property's so costly). So living elsewhere makes a lot of sense. Ny note above might sound as if I meant "like Toronto". I didn't. Apart from the bigger towns some distance away, ROSEland (=Rest Of the South East) may work for you.
I live in a 4-bedroom house in a tiny town 80 mins by reliable, hourly train from London. The house is 10 mins' walk through a medieval churchyard from the station. We rent it, while superintending the nearby reconstruction of our own house, for about £1000 a month - the going rate round here. This small town is 15 mins by train or car from a city that (reasonably, though smugly) regards itself as one of the world's intellectual capitals, with a cultural life that, while not matching the city's judgement of itself (nothing could) is about as good as you'd expect. Unemployment within a 25 radius is effectively zero.
Take a map of Britain's rail network from www.nationalrail.co.uk and look for the many similarly idyllic out-of-London locations. For local property prices, www.primrelocation.com is useful.

- cost of living. There's a very odd paradox here. Americans frequently complain about UK prices: Brits rarely get excited about how cheap it is to live in apartments in New York or LA. I've long suspected this is partly because Americans are bizarrely tolerant of US retailers' deceitful habit of hiding sales tax, but also because living abroad can always be pricey, if you're comparing what you normally do with the cost of doing that in a country where they do different things. As a Torontonian, for example, you probably share the UK habit of regarding manufacturers' grocery brands as things bought only by the most feckless, when supermarkets' own brands are generally better. So relative prices of, say, Crisco are irrelevant when what you want to compare is President's Choice at Loblaws with Tesco Finest.
The most accurate source of real, as opposed to anecdotal, cost of living data is the EIU Index. It costs serious money to access it on the Web, but if the Canadian or Ontarian Government has an Exporters' Information Centre in Toronto, they will probably have a copy or free web access. Its London equivalent does (see www.tradepartners.gov.uk) and it's worth using it on your reconnaissance trips here.
Incidentally, the web sites of the major UK supermarkets, especially Tesco and Sainsbury, give line-by-line prices for the whole of their range, so you can construct a real analysis of your weekly shopping bill.

- about mkingdom. Living for any period of time in a new country can be stressful. Look carefully at mkindom, because this thread is a valuable lesson. He (I assume) first gave a characteristic British reply: civil, erring on the side of negativity, but not excessively so.
Then Englishone interjects good wishes. That part of the message was quite irrelevant to your question. In an ordinary conversation in Britain, many would see that as gratuitous niceness. Glances would be exchanged, eyebrows raised, side grins could be visible. And mkingdom performed the cyber equivalent of those gestures. Often in Britain, unnecessary niceness can be almost as great a social gaffe as unnecessary unpleasantness.
Doubtless life should be different - and may well be different in better-ordered societies. And even in our yobbish society, mkingdom overstepped the bounds of etiquette. But in Britain, many of us have a very low toleration threshold indeed for saccharin: mkingdom was expressing what many would think (and gossip, privately, over later). In a straight conversation Britishone could well have the piss taken out of her in public.
It may not be nice, but such behaviour isn't personal. Brits have a way of perpetual deflation and mutual ribbing. Browsing through the UK and Australia sections of the Lonely Planet/Thorn Tree site provides a very good introduction to what can dismay many North Americans (British and Australian cultures are very close in this area, though not in many others).
- do browse heavily through the American Expatriates site, to see more about the culture shock stuff - aiming off for the fact that a large proportion of contributors are trailing spouses, rather than working migrants.

Good luck. 60 million of us manage to live perfectly happily here, and more people move here every year. Jobs are generally easy to find, and the property price problem causes relatively few of us to live in tents. You might just have to workl at it a bit

60 million Brits live perfectly happily/60 million Brits make the best of their lot.

There are race wars, there are high taxes, there is widespread poverty and as a consequence poor standards of living. About 600 000 (0.1%) live at a relatively high standard. As I always say, one can live in a warm country, say southern Italy or Spain, have nothing, yet have the sun. However naff that may sound, I feel it is very true. If you don't have money, London life simply isn't fun, and even if you do it's much more pleasureable to be able to wake up to sun, sea, blue skys and any other clichés.

I admire you for taking such an huge leap of faith into the relative unknown, once again I offer you my best wishes.

Add to that the department of trade and industry recognises our workforce as low-paid, easy to hire and fire and you see why us insecure Brits work the longest hours in Europe, have dysfunctional families with both parents *having* to work 60 hrs a week (unless your a fat cat or politician who can grease the wheels enough to get child help). Normally then the children are left to scavenge for high fat food and turn feral. In fact three young boys were discovered walking on all fours with fish-heads in their mouths only last week in central London.

After reading this post, I have started to have second thoughts about doing a 3 month stay in London(my dream). The financial aspect does not concern us as much as the culture shock. We are retired and income is not a problem. Flanneruk talked about "gratuitous niceness" (a very big aspect of the American character IMO) considered to be not the thing over there! We probably make up our mind after our 2 trips to UK this year. Of course, it may just be "the grass is always greener" effect! I think it is amazing that I could consider living in London, but never NYC....very curious! Judy ;-)

I think FlannerUK has overstated the 'gratuitous' niceness. He talks of me 'getting the piss taken' over offering congratulations to a newly wed couple. Flanner, my perception of this greeting was different from yours, evidently. I myself, see this as a normal social habit, but what I think you are missing here is that I am talking from a woman's viewpoint. Hard as it may seem to a man (and that may sound Un-PC (which, in my point of view, has become ridiculous and the social scurge of this society) women enjoy congratulating each other on occasions such as birthdays, engagements etc. etc. which men would probably see as being 'cissy'. Do you understand now??
Please don't be put off by FlannerUK's appraisal of this conversation. Many of us Brits have been raised correctly and have the necessary social skills to interact with others. As demonstrated here, some do not.

Hi

If I was wanting to live in the UK, well I wouldn't choose London.... how about somewhere like Southampton ... 1 hour south of London ... good rail links to central London, but also near the international airports of Heathrow/Gatwick, so friends/family from Canada don't have too far to travel.

Good nightlife, excellent resturants, good shops, near the countryside & the sea ... good beaches half-hour drive away.

Also if you wanting to travel Southampton now has FlyBe a low cost airline ... fly to many destinations in Europe.

I live in Eastleigh (about 6 miles north of there) ... you can buy a 3-bed semi house for under 200000 pounds or rent 750-800 monthly.
http://property.msn.co.uk/msn/lettings/index.jsp

The above website has a number of properties to rent for 750-800 in area SO50 (postcode of where I live). You could check that for London as well.

Hope that helps.

Mark

Englishone, I still want to come! I won't be put off by this thread either. I read enough Brit chic lit and other female UK writers, to know we women have more in common than not ;-)! I think, clgarbas you will have some serious issues to ponder ;-). Judy

Hi clgarbas,
I agree with isplumm.
The UK does consist of places other than London.
Firstly nothing is ever going to be more expensive than London and many many places will be equally as interesting and a darne sight safer, less stressful and subsequently healthier places to live.

Salaries are higher for many people in London, but Teachers, nurses and many similar people have no possibility of buying a house as they are far too expensive. This is a major problem.
Therefore most places within your price range to buy or rent in London won't be very nice in comparrison to Toronto IMO.

But you can rent or buy reasonably comfortably with that amount in Cities like Southampton or Cardiff in Wales. There is a good chance you can find work there too.

There really is more to UK than London.

Check it out

Muck

Anyone who is considering this sort of move and relies mainly on information from a bunch ofv anyonymous posters, including myself, "charming" or not, is a fool!

Good on you, Judy :)

Thank you all for the lively conversation while I was logged off. (My apologies if that's gratuitous.)

I appreciate all the information. To clarify, 1000GBP isn't my budget for letting--just what I had seen some online apartments going for. I suspected it was a little low (although, of course, the pictures on the Web sites all look great) so I wanted my suspicions confirmed. Which I've certainly had.

Relocating to London (or elsewhere in the UK) is about experiencing another culture--it's not about making the most profitable financial decision. Toronto is one of the most affordable world-class cities in which to live. We know we won't find better, in that regard. And that isn't the point.

I'm definitely interested in cities other than London. Southampton and Cardiff are now on the list. Any other recommendations?

BTilke--thank you for your advice. My husband does qualify for UK Rite of Abode. We hadn't considered a lawyer until reading your post--great idea.

JonJon, fear not. My fate is not in your hands.

And, EnglishOne, I do appreciate the congratulations. My husband proposed in Paris. m_kingom, I hope that's okay with you.

Again, great thanks to all.

Congratulations and good luck (frivolous and off-topic maybe, but I would say just good manners).

I would add Bristol to the list of possible extra-London options.
Interesting city with good restaurants and transport links.

Britain isn't as bad as some of my compatriates make out.

"There are race wars, there are high taxes, there is widespread poverty and as a consequence poor standards of living."

Britain's approach to a multi-racial society may not be perfect but it is being used by other countries as a model for how to develop their own approach.

Britain's taxes expressed as a proportion of GDP are below those of Sweden, France, Germany, and Italy + many others. Yes taxes are higher than in the US, but more public services are provided. Personally I would rather pay lower taxes and make my own choices regarding healthcare and education - but I am happy to abide by the will of the majority as is traditional in a democracy.

Poverty is not as widespread as even the official statistics would imply. The governments stated aim of eliminating child poverty applies to "relative poverty". This strange statistic includes all those living in households where the income is less than 60% of the national average. This makes no allowance for whether this results in absolute poverty. For instance, it may be possible to feed, house, and clothe yourselves and your family perfectly well, and take a foreign vacation each year - is this poverty ? It seems very difficult to reach a moving target for poverty - to me it would make more sense to set a level which allows living with dignity, and the purchase of all necessities and aim for that.

Anyway, enough of the politics/economics - off-topic again.

Good luck with the move, and may you meet many charming Brits on your travels.

What I do not think people realise is that you can get a Brisith Passport if you are Canadian...Is this correct clgarbas? My work colleague here in Dublin is Canadian with a UK Passport. So everyone try not to gang up too much before you know the story.

Have you considered sharing a flat initially with others. My friend in her late 30's did initially when moving to London and there it was in a huge older apt and 1-2 rooms had ensuite so its a priate room for you. This would be good for a few months to get your feet wet and possibly socialise a bit with the others. You will get a tiny place for 1,000 but remember Flats are much smaller in europe than U.S. Standards. As for jobs forget trying to have one before you go...I tried as well and it is really better to be there and look as people do not feel confident about a candidate that is still 3,000 miles away. What if you accept the job and dont show up. Go through employment agencies and try Monster.co.uk and similar sites.

As for easy or not easy to get a job...I ALWAYS get a job, but you have to realise that you will not necessairly get the one you want.. I did admin work, secretarial, Bar work, restaurant/catering work everything to make ends meet. I never had trouble finding jobs just one that I liked and wanted. (and paid well!)

I moved to Ireland with no job no flat etc. I was on a stopover to London awaiting the result of an Interview which never happened. I stayed and built a life. Its fun and better when you have someone with you to share and support eachother.

Take the plunge you have little to lose. You can always go home if you don't like it


Let me know what you do, I would like to see what you are planning! :-)

Hey there -

Have you considered upping sticks to Paris? The greater Paris metro area has hundreds of thousands of anglophones (& anglophone jobs), I know several Yanks who have survived years without properly learning French (but I suspect that as good Canadians you can already get by) . . .

The Canadian govn. is actively targeting young French to emigrate to Quebec - I bet it'd be doable to get residency in la belle France, if you're professional people.

Me? After 14 years in Blighty, it's soon to be bye bye West London. I've made my professional mark here, but cost of living is simply astronomical (no, really - you simply cannot imagine) . . . we're probably back Stateside soon.

Property is driving this upward spiral. I bought a 1-bed flat near Ealing for £64k a few years ago, and it's now on the market for £212.5k. No joke. This same apartment I've been renting out for pushing £1000/mo. You'll get more bang for your Canadian buck in France; transport links are excellent to the rest of Europe and the World; you'll master an important world language; and, you'll pick up some killer culinary skills
; )
HTH and let us know about your decision-making process. This might also be useful:
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_...bchannel_id=25
Bye for now!

Relatively few Canadians are eligible for British citizenship and hence British passports. Only those with some connection to Britain through birth or parentage can obtain one. This has been true since 1947 when Canadians ceased to be "British subjects" and became Canadian citizens. Of course, Canada ceased to be a British colony long before that vestige was removed.

I should have added, of course, that any Canadian, like anyone else, can apply for residence, and eventually British citizenship, through the normal channels. The illustrious Lord Black of Crossharbour is one example, although I doubt that Conrad would ever have gone through "normal" channels.

laverendrye,

I did not realise you needed UK parentage/ralations for a passport. My colleague does have a British mother.

Something that people also need to be aware of coming over is that the E.U is enlarged from the beginning of May and many eastern European countries will be able to come to western Europe and work (with some constraints in different countries) so realise there may initially be some competition.

I would move to France in a heart beat. My French is not too shabby, but my husband doesn't speak a word. I'm fairly certain I couldn't talk him into that move (in either language). Although, for fun, I will look into the anglophone job market. Thanks for that tip.

Right now, we're in the "pie in the sky" phase of our research. Any ideas and suggestions are welcome.

Getting a job as a Canadian maybe hard and it maybe easy. You need to say more about your experience, age, qualifacations, aspirations etc.

For instance, if you have four years experience in corporate finance with RBC it should not be too difficult to get a job in the City of London. But if you work in McDonalds in Toronto employment prospects will be less rosy.

£1,000 a month will get you a one bedroomed flat quite easily in an OKish part of town. In some parts you will get a three or four bedroomed house at that price. But you won't get much in a trendy part like M_K says. But he is talking about Chelsea and Mayfair where few British people live (it is mainly wealthy foreigners and celebrities round these parts). These places are like the upper east side. If you come from Canada you aren't going to be able to afford a place on the upper east side, unless youi are that guy, Ross? the CEO, from RJR Nabisco.

You should budget £100 a month council tax, £50 a month phone, £25 a month broad band internet access, £25 a week cleaner, £30 a month gas, £30 a momth elctricity, £30 a month water.