Common errors in Europe?
 

I know that almost all of us have difficulties in pronouncing words in other languages, but some gross errors have become so in-grained that folk are stunned to hear that they are screwing with someone's name or language. Yes, I know that Anglos are unlikely to say Pareee when they mean Paris. But there is one that never fails to amaze me by its tenacity to remain unnoticed, namely - Van Gogh. Yes, the sunflower and wheat-field painter.

He was Dutch (duh!) and that is a language full of European throat-clearing sounds, apparently totally foreign to Anglo mouth equipment. So here goes - his name is NOT pronounced Van Go. Say that in Holland and you will get polite but blank stares. Van Go is said by a toddler, announcing the departure of a special class of commercial vehicle - not an impressionist artist, allegedly with only one ear.

My best attempt at the real pronounciation is Fun Choch. The "Fun" is simple - enough said. The ChoCh is more difficult. The "o" is as in "lock" - no problem. Each "ch" is pronounced as in Loch (Scots for lake - e.g. Loch Ness monster). Don't get that? OK, lets try - from your throat expell a light short burst of air while raising the back of your tongue to near to your uvula (no porn - its your "little tongue"). The sound should be a short rattle like a miniclearing of the upper throat. Softly - you're not trying to clear a big phlegm ball. Now try to string together Fun Throatclear-o-Throatclear.

Agghhh - forget it, just say Fun Goff (as in Golf).

Don't say I didn't try.

Peter

:D =D>

It was Dave Barry who described the Dutch 'g', 'gh' and 'ch' sounds as "coughing up a looger the size of a cocker spaniel"!
However, if you say Van Go in Holland they will most probably know who you mean, at least from the context, as they are used to quite a variety of pronounciations!

Hi,

I thought it was Fon Hoch (ch as in loch G as in Gouda).

Hi Ira,
I'm soooo glad that the Loch story makes sense to someone.

Regarding the first G, indeed, it is a in Gouda. The problem is that in Dutch, Gouda is pronounced "Ch"owdah - that sneaky little Ch has popped up again. More throat clearing I'm afraid.

Thanks for your interest.
Peter

Hi Peter,

You are correct.

The reason I wrote it as H instead of ch was that I have heard both Van Gogh and Gouda pronounce as a guttural H rather than as the somewhat harder cccccchhhhhhhh of loch.

Ira, just to complicate matters further, people from the south of The Netherlands will pronounce Van Goch with a soft ch like loch, whereas people from the west of the country will pronounce this with a more guttural G (what we would call a hard G).

While on the subject, may I also address another urban legend, namely that the national dish of Belgium is mussels with french fries/chips.

Firstly, make no mistake - you eat WELL in Belgium. Also, Imho their chocolate is the best in the world and their beers amongst the most intriguing. They have more rated restaurants per capita than any other country, France included.

But - Mussels and Chips!!!!

Indeed they make the best patat frites on the planet, but flagging chips (UK) is like saying that the national dish of the USA is the hamburger - widely consumed, yes, but the flagship dish?

So back to Moules et frites (which only recognizes one of the 2 national languages) - it is there to be eaten, but where? Answer - look for the densest concentration of tourists and the eet-cafes will be bringing out the crustaceans by the bucketfull. May I suggest that this implies that the tourists are the ones seeking M&F but not real beret-wearing Belgians. To check this I visited a web site discussing the top 50 restaurants in Antwerp. A quick scan revealed only 1 mention of M&F. I got the impression that rack of lamb and cheese ommelettes occurred many more times.

So what is the national dish of Belgium? I'm damned if I know, but its not mussels, except around the railway station.

Peter

Mybe it's 'Waterzooi', a word I've always loved: it means 'water mess'.

Hi

I lived in Belgium for many years.

Another favourite is eels, endives, etc.

But when the mussels arrive at the end of each summer it is headline TV news !

I lived away from the tourist areas and even my local Thai, Cambodian, Chinese restaurants started offering mosselen (!) dishes in season.

So, natives are pretty keen too.

I once had a menu described as mussel surprise :

Raw mussels on a bed of ice
Mussel soup
2kg mussel with sauce to choice (and frites of course)
Choice of desserts (that must be the surprise ?)

Peter
http://tlp.netfirms.com

I spent about a half hour in a hostel breakfast room in Scotland with an English teacher who is a native of Holland. I finally mastered the pronounciation and there is no way I can discribe in engligh letters how to do it. But now I know that some of the more howty towty of us Americans who think they pronounce it right don't have a clue.

Jor, I believe the term is hoity-toity, but perhaps it is pronounced howty towty in Scotland.

This thread reminds me of some tram drivers in Amsterdam that will announce the trams stops the way tourists from English/French/German/Spanish speaking countries would normally pronounce them. Spui and Leidseplein are some of my favourites! If you see all of the Dutch people smile when these stops are announced, you now know why!

Rockknocker,
I'm afraid it IS "mosselen met friet" (moules & frites) in the mussel season that, by the way, started two weeks ago already (almost one month earlier than usual)!
A good runner-up would be steak & frites.

Note that the young folks eat quite different from the older ones. Probably the top 50 restaurants in Antwerp was chosen mainly by younger people. By the way, where did you find that top 50. I'm very interested to know if my favorites are listed.

mpprh,
Endives rolled in ham and prepared "au gratin". Mmmm, one of my favourite winter dishes but hard to find in restaurants nowadays. Just like the "waterzooi" jenviolin refers to.

Good and interesting points raised all around. Nice.

One last Belgian/pronounciation gripe. Brugge is in Flanders where they mainly speak Flemish/Vlaams (duh!). So why does the Anglo world seem to insist on using the French/Walloon pronounciation, which closely rhymes with "huge". We dont go to a Brit to enquire about Londres do we? The real inhabitants would pronounce Brugge with the "u" as the "oo" in "hook", the "gg" as the softer gutteral of the Scots Loch, and the "e' would definitely be sounded. How come we screw it up so often? Is it that all we have to fall back on other than English, is dimly remembered Grade 8 French?

Peter - from the puzzled corner.

Peter

To MiriamC

Sorry, Your request for the reference to Antwerp restaurants slipped me by.
Here it is:

http://www.expatica.com/belgium.asp

All the best,
Peter

Regarding the pronounciation of Bruges: in every travel brochure or guide I've ever seen in the UK, the place is referred to as Bruges, so it's only natural that people follow the example that's set them.
By the same token, you could complain that no-one uses the names Firenze, or Praha (we use the 'French' names Florence and Prague instead) ;-)

Rockknocker remarks

>...but flagging chips (UK) is like saying that the national dish of the USA is the hamburger - widely consumed, yes, but the flagship dish?<

Of course not. The national dish of the USA is pizza.

> I once had a menu described as mussel surprise :

Raw mussels on a bed of ice
Mussel soup
2kg mussel with sauce to choice (and frites of course)
Choice of desserts (that must be the surprise ?)

Peter<

2 kilos of mussels!? This is a menu for four isn't it?

Where's Fred Astaire when we need him? (Thanks for the smiles with my first cup of morning coffee.)

Ira,
Normal quantity of mussels for one person is between 1.1 and 1.5 kilos! Of course this includes the weight of the shells.

Peter,
Thanks for the link to the website. My fave is indeed listed!

Hi

................ 2 kilos of mussels!? This is a menu for four isn't it? ...............

A little larger pan than usual, but not abnormal in Belgium. Certainly not part of the surprise !

Peter
http://tlp.netfirms.com

I always smile when Americans say Van Gow. Also when you say Moscow (as in Moscaaw). Nobody else does that.
What do we Brits say that irritate or tickle everyone else? Fortnight? Pavement? Cashpoint (as in ATM)? Chomondley when we pronounce it Chumley or Magdelen when we pronounce it Maudelin..... I could go on!!

Hi

AR ............ Blair as in Socialist ?

Peter

I don't think that Tony has ever used the "S" word! He's the demonic love child of Margaret Thatcher and Cecil Parkinson.

AR; how about the english pronounciation of Beauchamp Place. When I lived there I first pronounced this as French, and the taxi driver didn't have a clue.

Hi,

On the east coast of the US we have Beaufort, NC (bow fort) and Beaufort, SC (Biew firt).

To quote AR- "What do we Brits say that irritate or tickle everyone else?"

I was a server in a hotel resturant years ago that would get filled with British tourists. I worked the day shift and it would just annoy the hell out of me when the Brits asked for a "fresh orange; never orange JUICE, or a GLASS of fresh orange juice...just a "fresh orange". I don't know why but it would just grate on my nerves so much that I took to bringing them a single orange on a plate.

Also, "brown bread" to indicate wheat toast. On one occasion I told a lovely British couple that "once it's toasted, it's all brown so now do you want white, wheat or rye????"

"wheat toast" sounds just as daft to British ears, since white bread is also made of wheat... :-p

Have you had any Yorkshire Pudding lately? Why do they call it pudding? ((b))

When my wife and I first went to the US we ended up in Washington DC. For sundowners she ordered a dry sherry - well, for starters, that had the place in a buzz.

And then we were introduced to the great language divide - "Yer wanya sherry straight up?". Startled glances were exchanged between us, while we telepathically concurred that the cherubic young man serving us meant her no physical harm.

Then the metaphorial light bulb appeared in the balloon attached to his left ear - "With or without ice?"

Smart kid. Diplomat material. Whew!!!

Peter

For MyriamC

Myriam, Sorry that I'm cluttering this thread, but since I go there fairly often I just have to know - what is the name of your fav restaurant in Antwerp?

Peter

Sorry, I find this patronizing to Americans. Sorry that you think the average American isn't your language purity standards, Peter, but don't think for one MINUTE that Europeans don't also change how words are pronounced to suit themselves. Why are you acting as this is only an anglophone characteristic?
Thousands (more like millions) of non-anglophone Europeans say Vienne/Vienna instead of Wien, Danube instead of Donau--just two examples.
I know lots of Europeans who can't say Oregon correctly. Should Oregonians post diatribes about how that constitutes "screwing with someone's language"??
European superciliousness raises its head again.

Of course Europeans change how words are pronounced. English is largely based on French - words ending in ...ion, ...ent, ...ant etc. Ask an Englishman and a Frenchman to pronounce the tyre (should that be tire?) company Michelin and listen to the results. Also Norwich is pronounced Norritch and not Norwitch. That's the fun of languages.

Peter has changed his target. Earlier, he posted that Van Gogh should not be pronounced with the "silly hoity-toity 'French' pronounciation". Maybe the French are less receptive to being sniped at for language errors. Or maybe they came back with a few instances of how the DUTCH have mangled the FRENCH language (which they can do, I've heard it often enough). Whatever, there are far more polite ways of suggesting the correct way to pronounce Van Gogh than resorting to a self-indulgent snide little lecture about "Anglo mouth equipment" and "screwing with one's language."

Peter,
At this moment Chez Fl'eau is one of my favourites. Give it a try.

Hi BTilke,

I am sincerely sorry that I upset you and for that I do apologise. The post was meant to be humorous - at least the second reponse suggested that it was received in that vein - but it appears to have gone awry.

Having said all that, I must respectfully point out that I did not mentioned Americans anywhere in this thread. Not once. May I point out further that the Anglo language is also spoken in Ireland, Canada, Australia, Zimbabwe, Kenya, India, New Zealand; South Africa; Pakistan; .....

Also, it was AR who mentioned the funny "howty-towty" pronounciation and the word "American" - not me.

And lastly, there appear to be at least 2 Peters posting to this thread.

Peter - hopefully from the respectful corner.

Peter,
well, ok, I found the original post patronizing to all anglophones, not just Americans. After four years in Europe, I've heard too many unfounded, undeserved, and ill informed condescending remarks about Americans.
Regarding the hoity toity comment, you posted "You cannot believe how many Van Gogh's (not with the silly hoity-toity French pronounciation) there are"...in the Best of Holland thread. (Unless there is another Peter with the a Rocknocker Fodors handle.). But as long as you meant it humorously...

Hi

I said a few words about mussels in Belgium.

Now I'm everones favourite target ?

Peter Languedoc

BTW : my French wife pronounces it Vin Gogg !

Yikes - I'm being stalked <g>

BTilke: You really should see Ireland. Its not patronising to say so. Lovely friendly green country. Great golf.