CW, you mentioned baggage associate with Dover. Why would Brits have any baggage associate with Dover? I thought it was a really neat complex with a lot of history behind it. I'm honestly curious and I doubt that would be something I could find using google. >>>

Baggage just means historical weight. In other words Dover to us is a bit iconic.

As I said the old word for England was Albion which means white. And the first, and last, sight most people had (pre flying) of us was the White cliffs.

Plus all our troops left from there and wanted to see "bluebirds over the white cliffs of Dover" when they (hopefully) returmed. Of course many of them never saw the white cliffs again.


But its this war time hit that stuck it in our heads:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdGX_FcvVoE

And this one has Spitfires in it. I can't begin to tell you you how British this is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUx3MU9iM6c

Has anyone come close to making the same noise as the Merlin engine?

We gave it to the yanks for their best fighter.

CW--Thanks for links; the last time I heard anyone sing part of that song was my mom, who died last April at almost 80, when she looked at pictures of our 2008 trip there. And DH enjoyed the Spitfires. On behalf of the yanks, thanks again; may we always be on the same side.

Mucky--glad all is forgiven!

I think CW's using 'baggage' slightly unusually: the word generally does have a bit of a pejorative tone in British, but not one that screams out. I certainly didn't think "oh, what's he got against the place?", but most of us would say 'associations' or something.

The Dover thing goes way back before WW1 (when troops DID use Dover: in WW2 it was more a command & control centre, a massive symbol, and an aerial battlefield or whatever the noun is): Dover's been THE key Channel port for centuries. Famously, the castle complex includes a Roman lighthouse, and one of the crucial points about the White Cliffs is you can see them from Calais. If they interest your daughter, I'd seriously consider getting the train from Kent to Calais, and getting the ferry back, then seeing the castle.

CW's also, I think, unnecessarily dismissive of the Cliffs from the English side. The Channel view's not that exciting, since Calais viewed from Dover's not at all as impressive as Dover from Calais (or even as a wet day in Scunthorpe), though it is one of the world's busiest shipping lanes and I find all those containerships quite striking. But the walk, as opposed to the view, for a few miles east is bracing - and there's a striking lack of proper country walks in your itinerary. Your Tolkien/CS Lewis etc heroes would be horrified at so much time unnecessarily cooped up inside, and the Cliffs offer you an opportunity to do something about that.

<<there's a striking lack of proper country walks in your itinerary>>
Agreed. Next trip I hope is one that incorporates that aspect. This trip I hope our time around the Wall will have a bit of walking in the country involved (and maybe in the Lakes, but I'm not PLANNING much of anything that long day) (plus Addison's Walk again in tribute to CSL and JRRT!). Our walks this time seemed to be confined to old city areas and old city walls.

When DH and I were in Dover before, we walked from the train station, to the ferry area, up the steep walk, to the National Trust entrance, along the cliff tops, to the South Foreland Lighthouse, back to town, up the hill to the Castle, around the castle some, and back to town for dinner and then to the train station. Whew. It was marathon training! We're figuring having a car this time will cut down on some of that, but we're definitely looking forward to the cliffside walks.

Thanks for explaining CW. :)

CW, thank you for the links. I was nine when WWII was over and remember my aunts singing White Cliffs of Dover. My dad and five of my uncles were in different branches of the Service, and White Cliffs is nostalgic even for me.

Been readin and loving this thread - so much info!

As you'll be in Carlisle can I suggest you check out the train station? It's still in the gothic building, but they've just had a re-vamp and will look awesome for some pics...a sofa/kitchen etc in the departures lounge for people to relax!!!

http://www.travelmole.com/stories/11...id=_r~A~Ads~~A

who wrote that song? We don't have bluebirds in the UK! so I never understood why it became such a hit, it just sounds silly to me.

Unless it's meant to be 'when pigs fly' type meaning...

It rhymes.

ps the Beatles didn't really want to just hold that girl's hand you know...

Poetic licence innit.

I am impressed that you are related to Maria Edgeworth (and know it!)

I haven't read every post , but at the risk of repetition, you can park in central Cambridge in the Grand Arcade carpark. The charge for 3 hours is £5.40, and you could see quite alot in that time. The price rises steeply after 3 hours. But, there is no way you could drive from York to Lincoln, see the cathedral, castle and Bailgate area, divert to Cambridge, and finish in Dover in one day. So I would say, Lincoln OR Cambridge.

Thanks tarquin--I'm impressed you know who she is! I have a first cousin once removed who stumbled upon this family tree link when researching our Granny Edgweworth's line--we seem to be descended from Maria's black-sheep, ne'er-do-well, Rousseau-mode-educated brother who came to the states. I'm trying to read her works now; I admit she's a bit of a slow go compared to say Austen, but it's way cool for me the literature teacher (as Maria and dad were also involved in education reform) to have that distant relative! (Did you know she's alluded to in The Great Gatsby--I've taught that thing about 5 times and only noticed it last year!)

And thanks for the confirmation about the timing for that long day; it will probably come down to what DH and DD want to do and whether we'd rather see another old town/cathedral/Magna Carta OR another university town (or neither!). I PROMISED both of them to be willing to deviate from "The Plan"!

Likw everybody else, I think you're doing too much in too short a time.

Driving through the Lake District in high season is likely to be very slow. Since you can't do them justice, I'd bypass the lakes and make sure you have time to visit the cathedral in Durham. It's one of my favorites and worth a journey according to the Michelin Green Guide. In fact, I like the town of Durham a lot. And there's easy parking under the pedestrian High Street area.

Cambridge is another place that makes a good daytrip from London. And you could get from London to Oxford by train or the Oxford Tube (bus) and pick up the car either at the end of your Oxford day or as you leave the next morning.

Again, thanks for input. Since the only things "set" after we leave London are our nightly destinations, we can flex our daily itineraries some as we see the weather and the traffic, etc. The cathedral in Durham is open late, like 8, so I'm really hoping to get to it that day even if briefly. Bypassing the Lakes was Plan A but it is now Plan B; I am listening to the warnings of summer traffic, but I'm still hoping we can at least drive through.

This trip, as I said, is to give DD a taste of as much as we could. That's not everyone's way to travel, and I hope to go back with DH in a more leisurely way some day, but this time it's the sampler tour!

We looked into picking up the car in Oxford but DH explored all that and it was cheaper to get the car type/company he wanted if we picked up and delivered at LHR. And we don't want to take one of our London days to go out of town. So we'll have to see if either Lincoln OR Cambridge gets the nod on that day.