but the Charles story is still the best known anecdote in our (and, really, your) history.>>>

Not surfeit of lampreys?

Edward II's sticky end?

"My lord I had quite forgot the fart?"

"Tomorrow I shall be sober but you, madam, will still be ugly"?

Yes Wales is not part of England. It's occupied territory.

They burn down our holiday cottages, the buggers.

Yes--very aware of the difference between Wales and England--shortcut for my topic title not correct--sorry!

CW---Jaggers from Great Expectations (do I recall you're not a Dickens fan?) (and I vote for Churchill quip, if we're voting!)

Flanner--thanks for routing ideas

Iowa--that was sorta my thinking about the Dover day, but I'm not sure how to actually "do" the Canterbury part--would we have to park and catch a bus to the Cathedral? If we can't drive pretty close to it but have to depend on park and ride or bus or something, it makes the timing so much longer and iffier.

I’m not sure what you’re expecting to see in Dover. The white cliffs are only really seeable from the sea and in any case aren’t that impressive – they’re just cliffs. It’s just that they had iconic significance for our troops as they were the first sight of home (Albion means white, remember). There’s lots of good stuff if you are keen on military history but otherwise it’s a dowdy seaport with little to recommend it.

Canterbury on the other hand is magnificent. The cathedral is one of the best in the world (on the inside at least) and the town will blow your little cotton pickin’ socks off.

I’d bin Dover and concentrate on Canterbury (if you want a visit to the Kent coast I’d recommend Deal or Whitstable)

http://www.canterbury-cathedral.org/visit/maps.aspx

Here's a link to the Canterbury parking guide and map: http://www.canterbury.gov.uk/gis/wmn.php?catid=1 It looks like there's a parkng lot very close to the Cathedral. The close lot is Queningate and is 90p per hour, up to 5 hours and opens at 7am.


If nothing else, could you park at the train station and walk from there? I don't remember seeing their parking situation so that may not work. I think that was a 10 minute walk at the most. It's much shorter if you pay attention to the signs and turn when you should! :) It's really well signed, you just have to actually pay attention to the signs and not just head for the old stone bits up the street like I did at first.

DH and I loved Dover Castle in 2008 but didn't have time to do the Tunnels tour, so we want to take DD back and spend a bit more time in the Castle. And we walked for several hours along the National Trust trail to the South Foreland Lighthouse, and as it was a lovely day, we had great views of the Channel and France. So our pictures made DD want to see it for herself. If the weather's not conducive to Cliff-seeing on the day we'll be there, maybe we'll substitute a long/er visit to Canterbury (and then could spend time in Dover the next morning if the weather was better and then drive straight to LHR--that's been a Plan B--and one reason for staying in the Dartford area so we'd have some options for that day, based on how we feel and the weather.)

CW, I have to disagree with you about ditching Dover. I thought the castle and complex was really cool. If the OP was only interested in going to see the cliffs then I'd likely agree, but if they want to see the castle that's a different story.

(and CW--on a complete rabbit trail--how did you know I've actually picked cotton!? and love socks? Ha. A childhood memory from my north-Alabama-grandparents' small plot. Made me appreciate a bit what the cotton-and-slave economy and life was about. Yea for mechanical cotton pickers)

CW, I have to disagree with you about ditching Dover.>>>

Disagree away. It's all a matter of opinion and no ones is better than anyone elses. In fact yours is probably better as a foreign you don't have the baggage that places like Dover have for us and as such can say if they are good for other foreigns.

how did you know I've actually picked cotton!? >>>>

In the same way that I assumed you've eaten grits and watched men fall off cattle as a sport.

Don't see that it has been mentioned -- but you don't need a car in Dover. There is no reason at all to slog up the hill from the station to Dover Castle. I sure know I wouldn't.

take a cab - it is a short ride but would save you a lot of time and a <B>LOT</B> of sweat!

I'd never suggest someone walk up to the castle unless they were in training for a marathon or something . . . . .

FWIIW - Dover is a total dump. Dover Castle is fabulous. Take the train :)

Flanner--trying to look at your suggestions for travel--but we're going from Oxford to Black Bourton first and then on to Shrewsbury, so it doesn't seem logical to go back to M40. Your suggestion for Black Bourton to Shrewsbury?

But flanner's >>> slower, but prettier, alternative is the A44 to Leominster, then the A49 north <<< suggestion works

Just jog up from Black Bourton on the A424 through Stow-on-the-Wold and catch the A44 before Broadway.

We had dinner at the George Inn with C_W a couple of years ago, if you're hungry when you go there. It was quite good.

Lee Ann

<<Disagree away. It's all a matter of opinion and no ones is better than anyone elses.>>

I love it when people remember that and don't get pissy when someone offers a differing opinion. :)

CW, you mentioned baggage associate with Dover. Why would Brits have any baggage associate with Dover? I thought it was a really neat complex with a lot of history behind it. I'm honestly curious and I doubt that would be something I could find using google.


Sorry for the bit of a side track from the real topic. :)

Iowa--No prob--I LOVE sidetracks and rabbit trails--ask my students! ('Course, I like to get the main questions answered, too--ask my students)

So maybe CW will respond tomorrow--I'd like to know what he meant by Dover baggage.

Just so you don't have to wait until cw gets up tomorrow I'll have a stab at the baggage associated with Dover..

I think it's probably a WWII reference. The troops left from Dover. There's that Vera Lynn song 'there'll be bluebirds over the White Cliffs of Dover'. If you don't know the words try googling.
So, yeah it does have 'a lot of history behind it' as you say but that's really the baggage that I think cw was referring to.

sassy--thanks--I know the associations (even saw the old movie and teach the Arnold poem) but why "baggage"--unless in Brit speak that simply means "association" or reference? Nuances, connotations, dialects--all lend meaning. Baggage to me has a negative connotation. Does it have the same connotation in British English? (I hope it's okay to discuss language on our travel thread!?)

If it were my trip, I would skip Carlisle and stay at least a day in the Lake District, taking in the beauty as well as all the literary associations. From there it's an easy drive to Hadrian's Wall. Just one more opinion. Enjoy your trip!

"Yes--very aware of the difference between Wales and England--shortcut for my topic title not correct--sorry!"


:-)


Muck