clairobscur <BR><BR>The pH of tomatoes varies with ripeness and area grown but is roughly 3.5 - 4.9. The pH of vinegar, which as you know is acetic acid, is 2.4 - 3.5. Definitely more acidic.

Amazing that Carol can find people smoking in American restaurants but not in French restaurants, even though almost every American restaurant has a non-smoking section. I think you see what you want to see.

&lt;&lt;Message: Amazing that Carol can find people smoking in American restaurants but not in French restaurants&gt;&gt; Where did you ever get the notion that I said that? You're misreading. I'm a confirmed smoke-hater anywhere and everywhere, just don't think French smokers are necessarily rude.

So, Carol, you're saying that the ignorance of the French makes their cigarette smoking less bothersome to you. Right?

Smoke always bothers me, regardless whether it's the smoke of a friend or an axe murderer. The thread, however, is on the topic of "etiquette," not the state of my sinuses or the robustness of my histamines. And yes, an ignorant smoker who'd oblivious to the suffering he's causing is not as "rude" as the smoker who knows how much it bothers anebveryone and does it in public in congested quarters anyway. Their smoke, however, is equally offensive.<BR>I'm tired of this topic, but go on if you enjoy it. :)

Mavis, there is nothing escpecially French in that table etiquette. That is the same every place in Europe. I just disagree about "ceaning your plate", there is nothing wrong in leaving food if you are no longer hungry. It used to be like that for decades after the war when people still knew what it is like to be hungry, but not any more. Actually now it is said that "better to leave food than gain weight". And sopping up sauce with a piece of bread is OK unless you are in a formal dinner. Everything else you mentioned is just normal manners.

So Carol thinks French smokers aren't as rude because they don't understand that their smoke bothers people. Wow, the lengths these Fodors Euro-wannabes will go to defend the French.

Thanks everyone for comments. Interesting to see how opinions vary on some issues/but generally accepted that many of these points are good manners anywhere. As a side point on Harriet Welty Rochefort's page she lists these as the top things 'Americans hate about France':<BR>- constant strikes<BR>- ppl smoking<BR>- ppl incapable of queueing<BR>- dog poop on sidewalks (she says - who would measure this? - that there is 16 tons per day of the stuff and every yr. 650 ppl are injured because of it - I sure she's quite serious but I don't know why but it makes me want to laugh)<BR>- graffiti on walls<BR>- body odours??????<BR>- Turkish toilets<BR>She didn't mention how her research was conducted.

non-smoker<BR><BR>I don't know about you but I haven't seen this many wannabes since high school. What you want to bet their favorite television channel is "E". <BR><BR>It's funny. The desperation to fit in with what they see as superior people is palpable on these boards. It's funny and pathetic.

I think some of the people reading this thread need to take a reading comprehesion course...nowhere did Carol say that she approved or enjoyed smokers around her, nor did she say anything about admiring the French excessively.. All she said was that it was less rude in France where they do

I think non-smoker and Patty and all the ones who scream WANNABE need to take a laxative - they'll feel better.<BR><BR>and Lillie obviously already sees herself as superior so she can sit back smugly and judge...<BR><BR>sigh. children children.

my post was cut off in mid-thread!<BR><BR>All she said was that it was considerably less rude in France where they do not have the awareness of the distress that smoking causes some people than in US where , if they don't know, they should!

Ah, yes, yes, the Euro defenders come out in force at even the slightest criticism. You people may want to start some sort of support group. You can find plenty of members right here at Fodors. Strange how the wordly, sophisticated French need not be aware of the dangers of second-hand smoke, but the ignorant Americans should know better.

Why would the French worry about the American sensitivity to smoke in their own country?<BR>Maybe here in NY people are aware,you cannot smoke in our restaurants.But in Paris you can.So the Parisians see nothing wrong in smoking,just like they always have.<BR> While I do not consider myself a "Euro defender"-I can understand how the French and other Europeans are not as aware of the American sensitivity to smoke.<BR> I really do not think that they understand, something that is a normal way to life to them, is bothering the Americans so much! <BR> The English don't drink beer cold. Should Americans demand that they start refrigerating their beer to meet our standards? <BR> And I would love for someone to tell me two things:<BR>1-What exactly is a Euro wannabee?<BR>2-Has anyone on this thread ever been to Morrocco? or to Wyoming?<BR>Both places, people(men especially) smoke day and night, everywhere,all the time,in cars,stores,restaurants,you name it..<BR>

ETIQUETTE-<BR>Conduct required by good breeding<BR>RUDENESS-<BR>ignorant,uncouth,coarse behavior<BR><BR>Thus,when you want to behave well, learn your etiquette.<BR>If you are unaware of etiquette and how to behave in public-you are rude.<BR>Table manners are under the heading of etiquette.<BR>Smoking would be under the heading of rude.<BR>

Re: "The English don't drink beer cold. Should Americans demand that they start refrigerating their beer to meet our standards?"<BR><BR>Sorry, Kate, but that's a ludicrous analogy to the smoking issue. When people drink alcohol (or coffee, etc.) or eat foods, it doesn't affect other people (unless, of course, the people drinking alcohol get drunk and obnoxious.) If smokers could contain all their smoke within them, why would any non-smokers have a problem with people smoking? They wouldn't. <BR><BR>I couldn't care less about the amount of smoke that goes INTO a smoker's lungs. That's their problem. What I, and others, care about is the amount of smoke that goes into MY lungs, and onto MY clothes, "courtesy" of people who see no problem with expelling smoke into the air.

sorry,Capo-I was just trying to make a point.<BR>That point being that as long as we travel to different countries, we really cannot expect them to change their ways of life to suit us.<BR><BR>I hate smoke also,but if I want to travel and see things, I will have to deal with the smoke until those countries wise up too.<BR>Or stay home.<BR>And drink cold beer:)

One comment in the original post that has had no response yet is the one about not talking loudly.<BR>One of the things that distinguishes a group of Americans is their loud talk in places where others are quiet. French children are taught, according to Polly Platt's excellent book "French or Foe?" that it is rude to let others hear your conversation.<BR>Numerous times I have been in restaurants in France where the next table was only inches from mine, yet I could not hear the conversations of the other diners, unless I deliberately listened in. On the other hand, I have been in places where a group of Americans was so loud that it made it unpleasant for other diners. In fact, I saw one gentleman pay his bill and leave without finishing because the Americans at the adjacent table were so loud.<BR>I always tell students who are in my group to keep their voices down when they are in a group in public. Not easy for most Americans to do!

I love the one about not laughly to loudly. HA! So it's a sin to laugh loudly at a table in France? Tough.<BR><BR>And by the way, I was on a tour in London with a guide from France ( he was an absolute riot ) and the one group we had trouble with were a LOUD group of French school children also on tour. He didn't have nice things to say about them or French school children in general. We were amazed.

Mavis: Thanks for your list. While Polly Platt's books (French or Foe? Savoir Flair) would be in agreement with this article, perhaps we should mention that there's a natural difference between eating at someone's house and eating in a restaurant. As a guest in a French home, I must clean my plate and I must sit at the table without using the bathroom, even if it's a couple hours (Polly and many other ex-pats have long discourses over the expectations of the French bladder). However, I'm not going to worry about using the restroom if I've been touring all day and I'm paying $200 for my meal. And if I don't like what the chef has made, I'm not going to see him again for quite some time--I feel very comfortable leaving it on the plate. Neither of those decisions hurts the diners around me.<BR><BR>What does hurt the diners around me--ruins their experience--is loud conversation. I've been places where Americans shout to another table across the room.