"I know that there is no class distinction in the USA"

Are you dreaming?

Chuckle! It's called irony ;-)

This thread is a hoot.

I'm sorry, but I cannot bite my tongue.
This thread has so many parochial, ill informed and US centric comments.

Why do some people bother travelling, if these are the views they return home with?

There are entire counties in the US where you cannot buy alcholic beverages let alone drink them with your meal. Yet we have comments like: "Sorry, but that's what I like about America. With a few exceptions, you can ask for ketchup, mayo, hot sauce, steak sauce, what ever, and they bring it to you without giving you "the look"."

Then this comment:

"As for drinking hot with a meal... I think US is the only country to serve ice drinks with hot food." Try Australia, South Africa, New Zealand, Asia, Canada ........


"The coffee is far better in cafes or at Starbucks, if that's what you're used to." You prefer Starbucks or American coffee to French or Italian? - give me a break.


I have listed a few other pearlers which just speak for themselves:

Many tourists want to get a bottle of white wine with the fondue but the Swiss will order the hot tea. The reason is that the cold wine will coagulate the hot cheese balls and they won't soften down for two days.


It would be a bit like asking for vegetables to be plonked on the plate with your meat.

know that there is no class distinction in the USA, but I am ancient enough to have read Vance Packard's book, "The status seekers"

Sorry, but that's what I like about America. With a few exceptions, you can ask for ketchup, mayo, hot sauce, steak sauce, what ever, and they bring it to you without giving you "the look". Now having said THAT..I would not be going to Tallivant and asking for ketchup..but I wouldn't be going to Tallivant anyway, so not an issue.

Oddly, this "do as the locals do" rule seems to work only one way. If a French person in the USA wants to have salad after the main course, it's because that's civilized. If an American in France wants it the other way round, that's being an oik. How odd.

"A GOOD chef will adapt to the desires of a customer." You mistake a chef with Burger King.

What struck me more was Americans trying to tip the waiter. Obviously, they didn't read up on the VAT.

Les goûts et les couleurs ne se discutent pas.

>>This thread is a hoot.<<

Particularly the cut & paster (against Fodor's rules btw) reference to the tattered and discredited Vance Packard.

Of course, what really concerns me, is the beard worn over or under the napkin?

This thread reminds me a funny story my parents tell about travelling in France. They had rented a car to explore the country outside of Paris. They went to a little restaurant for dinner near the B&B they were staying.

Looking at the menu - it was all in french - they were confused. Fortunately a nice Canadian couple helped them translate the items. When the waitress came over - my parents ordered a roast chicken dinner and wanted a cheese plate for an appetizer. The waitress looked down at them with contempt and said (read this will snooty french accent) NO! Cheese cannot come before ze meal! It closes ze throat!

She actually Would Not serve it to them.

Of course, coffee with breakfast is ok. But I have never EVER gotten coffee before or during any other meal. No matter what I said or did. They will eventually say ok, but won't bring it! I generally sleep late, skip breakfast and want my coffee while I'm waiting for my lunch to be served. (I don't LIKE coffee after a meal!) Won't happen in France!! It just isn't DONE! You can try but they do not have the same attitude about the customer being right -- THEY believe they are right and will behave accordingly! To solve the problem I stop off at a bar and have a coffee before going to a restaurant for lunch! And before I get blasted, I LOVE France. It is my favorite place in the world and if I could figure out a way to make a living I would live there! I spend a couple of months a year there! (I once got a waiter at a very expensive hotel in Sweden to bring me coffee before lunch, but only after a very long discussion about how that "is not done" and how "American" I was.)

I love France too which is why I'm going back in November. I don't get "the look" very much anymore and can usually change "the attitude" if I work on it. They just kind of tickle me with all the "don'ts" and "musts". I can't help thinking to myself sometimes, "just get over it all ready. Life is too darn short!!!" LOL

"Won't happen in France!! It just isn't DONE! You can try but they do not have the same attitude about the customer being right -- THEY believe they are right and will behave accordingly!"

sorry to burst that bubble, but when I was in Paris I got coffee before and during my meals all the time. They were really nice to me about it and didn't give me any problems.

First of all, thanks for the funny thread.

Regarding the white bread/crusty bread controversy:

When I grew up, everyone who liked Wonder Bread was a Christian. The people who liked crusty bread (usually rye or pumpernickel) were Jewish. The Christians also had Hellman's mayo on their sandwiches and the Jews had mustard.

Since I was raised Jewish, I'll take my pastrami on rye with mustard. If someone asks for mayo with his, he is definitely not a Member of the Tribe.

Vance Packard's books were written about the 1950's and 1960's and were talking about what America was like when I grew up. They would have minimal relevance today.

And, I do agree, that any chef worth his salt (pun intended) will be gracious enough to adjust to the needs of his customers. If he did not, well, he would not be a chef for long.

While I don't drink coffee with my meal, if you want it, go ahead and ask for it. It won't be the first time someone has done so and, if the restaurant is concerned about its customers, you should be able to get your coffee when you want it--even if you are dressed like Rumpole.

Rather than drinking Chateau Thames Embankment, I think Rumpole favored "plonk". Maybe its the same thing--LOL.

I don't drink coffee with a meal, but I have occasionally ordered a coffee BEFORE lunch, if I haven't had much that morning and kind of want my caffeine jolt, and want to just sit and relax a bit before having lunch. I've done that several times in Paris and never once has anyone refused to serve me coffee before lunch or even cared. I just order what I want, and don't expect people to give me a hard time or care what I am ordering. I really don't think most waiters really care that much about what customers in a cafe order and when.

The cheese thing was that personal waitress' thing, also, as some French restaurants have items with cheese in the list of appetizers.

Maybe I have been in a parallel universe in France, but I don't recall once any waiter ever refusing to give me what I wanted, as long as it was on the menu somewhere and available in the place.

There's little doubt that the Chateau Thames Embankment at Pomeroy's was definitely in the "plonk" category. You could probably call it "vin tres ordinaire".

"Won't happen in France!! It just isn't DONE! You can try but they do not have the same attitude about the customer being right -- THEY believe they are right and will behave accordingly!"

What a funny and revealing post. Obviously from someone who "believes he is right and behaves accordingly". Talk about "attitude" and being wrong.

With the VERY rare exception, Parisian waiters are happy to give you exactly what you want, even if it is abominable. Don't be surprised if you hear people laughing in the kitchen, though.

>>>>
Don't be surprised if you hear people laughing in the kitchen, though.
>>>>>

parisians have been entertaining visitors from around the world for centuries...including russians, chinese, arabs, japanese, etc, etc. i think it would take an extremely strange request to make a busy parisian waiter go into the kitchen and laugh.

"Parisian waiters are happy to give you exactly what you want, even if it is abominable. Don't be surprised if you hear people laughing in the kitchen, though."

That's pretty much true of restaurant kitchens everywhere. If it weren't for the opportunities to mock the customers once you're out of their hearing, nobody would last more than two weeks in the restaurant biz.

My partner and I were in London on buisness about 20 years ago. Our host picked us up at the airport around lunchtime and took us to a pretty fancy hotel dining room, can't remember which one.

We were so tired after the overnight flight and both wanted coffee with our meal. The waitress very sweetly said, "Oh madame, I am ever so sorry but we serve coffee AFTER the meal, in the lounge".

We explained that we had just arrived on an overnight flight and really needed the caffeine. She replied, "Oh madame how very dreadful for you but we only serve coffee AFTER the meal, in the lounge."

So we had our coffee after the meal, in the lounge.

Aside: Americans use or are habituised to three drugs: Alcohol, Nicotine and Caffeine. Caffeine is used to wake up in the morning. Nicotine is used all day to allay the pains of existence. Alcohol is used to depress an unhappy existence. Go ahead, ypu are the PAYING customer! Order what ever you desire.

GSteed, I'm going to take your post as "dry humor".

Good grief! I wouldn't let a waiter, message board know-it-all, or anyone else dictate what I should or shouldn't drink with, before, or after my meals! Personally, I don't care for coffee with my lunch or dinner, but that's just me. I don't find it odd if someone else enjoys it though.

Belinda

Linda--you are much too sweet of a person!! :) I would hate to see someone deny me something I needed when I was jet-lagged!!

The waitress was just so sweet and apologetic that you couldn't get mad at her. I was too tired to be mad anyway, but thankfully the food came quickly and we didn't have too much time to try to stay awake.

The most important question has not been asked:

when drinking coffee with lunch or dinner should one stick out the pinkey finger or not?

Curt
<i>The most important question has not been asked:

when drinking coffee with lunch or dinner should one stick out the pinkey finger or not? </i>

<b>YES</b>

Blackduff

Recently in Puglia, Italy, I couldn't even get a coffee (expresso) AFTER my meal - smart restaurant too. I was told, in no uncertain terms, that it was grappa, limoncello or nothing. The fact that I was driving home cut no ice with the waiter.

Kate, is it possible that the restaurant did not *make* coffee? I mean, not even have the facilities or ingredients, ie coffee?? I know that in Italy, cafes are popular. I am thinking of some of the Italian restaurants in the North End of Boston that do not serve dessert and expect that if you want it, you will retire to the nearby cafes...

Wine is cheaper than coffee in Europe. But not in the U.S. or when flying with the U.S. airlines.

Sodas are sweet and will probably make the meal taste bitter.

I don't usually drink coffee past mid-morning (or sometimes with a chocolate dessert), but I stopped at a nice cafe on Isle of St. Louis and, because they didn't serve until 7, ordered a cafe creme and read a book. When the server came to ask me if I would like to order, I did, and I also ordered another cafe creme and some water. I have to admit that there was a slight cocking of her head when I did, but she graciously went and got it. I think I would have received the same look in the US if I had ordered a hot fudge sundae in between the salad and the steak, but I still would have been served. The servers in all the cafes and restaurants I went into treated me with respect, and that's what matters. If it makes them happy to dis a tourist behind doors, they can be my guests.

Actually, that's a fair point.

If a restaurant is not in the habit of serving coffee, they may not even have a machine.

Sometimes, near closing time, it can become impossible to get coffee due to the fact that espresso machines have to be fully cleaned and purged every day. Since it is a tedious task, the barman sometimes jumps the gun if it looks like nobody is going to order coffee anymore.

Presumably if the restaurant sells Coke, they aren't likely going to make an issue of when it is consumed, provided it isn't the only thing the diner orders, of course. Ditto coffee (except, as the previous poster points out, in the instance where the machine has been put away for the day.)

Meanwhile....

&quot;....the cold wine will coagulate the hot cheese balls and they won't soften down for two days.....&quot;

&quot;[an Italian friend] believed that acidic tomato sauce would cause any milk drunk to curdle.....&quot;

This is quite interesting, how people come to equate cooking with digestion. It's as if people equate the processing of food pre-ingestion with the processing of food by our bodies post-ingestion.

Cold substances added to a cheese sauce during cooking might cause it to coagulate, but wine or tomato sauce per se can't be bad for the digestion of anything, even dairy products such as milk or cheese. The pH of wine and tomatoes, pH range around 3.5 to 4.5, pales in comparison to the acidity of the stomach, pH of around 2.0. The stomach acid is there to aid digestion, not make it worse! (And no, the temperature of ingested foodstuffs doesn't alter the stomach pH. )

Our digestive systems evolved long before we learned how to brew tea or coffee.

Sue
Since you have all of the information about the stomach, etc. can you explain people get constipated.

Blackduff

Here's a small recipe using fondue and drinks.

http://www.recipesource.com/special-...e-fondue1.html

<i>She adds that one should not drink cold beverages with cheese fondue, or
your stomach will be sorry. She says white wine or tea is best, and
warm-ish Coke or mineral water is OK. She said NEVER drink beer with Swiss
fondue. (She was quite firm on this last point.)
</i>

So, I guess there are different viewpoints. I've had fondue with both wine and tea. I feel a lot better after the meal with tea.

Blackduff

Sorry, lost this thread until recently.

Blackduff, there's too many reasons to go into here, especially since constipation can mean either infrequency of bowel movement, changed (e.g. hardened) nature of the stools, or both.

Partial list:

Behavioural (stress, often about being constipated!); sedentary lifestyle;

When the reason is dietary, it generally involves insufficient fibre or bulk matter; and/or not enough liquids;

calcium and iron supplements;

Medications (lots, including ordinary antacids that upset optimum pH environment of beneficial bacteria)

Anatomical (e.g. growth in colon);

Illnesses, including serious ones like Parkinson's, endocrine disorders, etc;

Spinal cord injuries;

Pregnancy;

etc etc etc.