Sorry.
If you don't like a dish cooked the way the local cuisine prepares it, then don't order it.
If you want to shovel salt over a meal that a top chef has seasoned perfectly, then again don't go to a restaurant with a top chef.
Fast food is now international.
If you don't want to eat like the locals, then go where you will feel comfortable.

I know that there is no class distinction in the USA, but I am ancient enough to have read Vance Packard's book, "The status seekers"
There are a few chapters at http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/50s/packard.html
I'm pretty sure that he says that drinking coffee in large cups with a meal is lower class.
Chapter 10 is very interesting about the acceptance of unusual foods.
It even extends to bread:

"An executive of a leading bread company told me that only the upper classes like hard, firm bread, and that people in the lower classes prefer the loaves that are so soft that they seem to be made of sponge rubber. When you go into a restaurant, you can typically tell what kind of people patronize it just by glancing at the bread basket. Only restaurants catering to sophisticates will place hard-crust rolls in the basket. Restaurants striving for a mass appeal will emphasize soft buns and soft breads"

><I must say that I get impatient with the idea that if you are paying for something that you are entitled to behave like an oik.<<

Yes, I agree with you...having coffee with your meal (which by the way, I prefer not to do) is being such an oik...whatever that is!

Give me a break!!! It's coffee with a meal, not wearing a bikini inside a Cathedral! Get a grip!

>>It would be a bit like asking for vegetables to be plonked on the plate with your meat.<<

???? that's a no no too?!?! Interesting, you better have a talk with many high end restaurants, 'cause I've seen that a lot!

So you're saying that the woman who has lived all her life and eats Florentine steak shouldn't ever eat it again, because she prefers it cooked her way? And who said anything about "shovel salt all over it"? A GOOD chef has the sense to know that some people have a greater sensativity to some herbs or seasonings than others. A GOOD chef will adapt to the desires of a customer. And basically you're saying that a person who even for health or medical reasons had certain problems with some foods, he or she should stay home because no good chef will want to help them out? Hogwash! You're trying to set up hard and fast rules without any room for bending -- which is a dangerous and foolish position to put yourself in.

While we're at it, you seem to suggest that if a person can't tolerate peanuts, they should never fly, because if they do and peanuts are served they should be obligated to eat them along with everyone else-- just as absurdly steadfast as your other rules.

Regardless of how &quot;ancient&quot; you are, Josser, there is one attribute that <i>always</i> separates Us from Them:

manners.

I guess another thing that separates some of us is an interest in looking around a restaurant to see what others are doing to establish if they are &quot;high class&quot; or &quot;low class&quot;. What a waste of time. Why would anyone care what OTHER people are eating or what their personal tastes are? And some people say I have too much time on MY hands?

People who prefer soft bread are low class, and people who like firm bread are high class? Someone should tell a few of the great chefs of the world who are now serving soft breads that they are attracting low classes. I guess they didn't get the memo.

Makes me think of Meg Ryan in When Harry Met Sally. I think one can sometimes perhaps go too far in telling the kitchen or the chef what to do. At that point it's like &quot;so why do you even go out to eat?&quot; Having said that, I have no idea why a chef or anyone else would get offended if a person is allergic to something.. if someone has a peanut allergy they can actually die!!..so will ask how something is prepared. Also, I love rare beef, but I'm not a big fan of really rare lamb and why a waiter or a chef anywhere would get their nose out of joint because I would request it cooked medium is beyond me. Sorry, but that's what I like about America. With a few exceptions, you can ask for ketchup, mayo, hot sauce, steak sauce, what ever, and they bring it to you without giving you &quot;the look&quot;. Now having said THAT..I would not be going to Tallivant and asking for ketchup..but I wouldn't be going to Tallivant anyway, so not an issue.

Oddly, this &quot;do as the locals do&quot; rule seems to work only one way. If a French person in the USA wants to have salad after the main course, it's because that's civilized. If an American in France wants it the other way round, that's being an oik. How odd.

Query: If a restaurant offers both ciabatta (soft) and gran duro (hard) in its breadbasket, what exactly is it trying to say?

That all the waiters are gathered at the kitchen door, waiting to see which one you choose so they'll know how to treat you for the remainder of the meal?

kswl,

ROFLMAO

LOL, LOL

If I may politely point out that eccentricity has long be a mark of an upperclass man, particularly in England. If Lord Northhamptonshire (totally made up name) decides to have coffee with his meal at a 3 Michelin star restaurant, I doubt the waitor would suggest anything to the contrary.

Often threads like this are sooo funny! Good comment kswl =D&gt;

Quotes
&quot;It even extends to bread&quot;
&quot;People who prefer soft bread are low class, and people who like firm bread are high class?&quot;

This is something I noticed while I was a waitress (for 14 years). I never worked anywhere fancy, though, so it mainly applied to sandwich bread rather than bread-basket bread. People who one might identify as &quot;high class&quot; (who looked like they had money) would usually want to know if we had multi-grain or some kind of wheat bread. People who looked like didn't have much money would ask for white bread and expressed dislike for the other breads (on the rare occasion we were out of white bread).

I also watched a documentary once about classes in USA and during one segment the poorer people of the town were complaining about the lack of real grocery stores because of all the &quot;yuppies&quot; and &quot;granola-eaters&quot; having their co-ops (or whatever those little grocery stores are called). I thought to myself &quot;I wonder if they are going to say anything about bread?&quot; Sure enough, the lady complained about the &quot;weird bread.&quot;

Also, I always thought it a bit strange when someone would order coffee with dinner. I think of this as something an old man would do.

There's a nice Rumpole story where Rumpole goes to a top London restaurant and orders steak and kidney pud with mash.
The chef just about murders him.
Of course, after Rumpole has successfully defended him in court, he gets his steak and kidney.
The first time I went to France, I was quite young and stayed with a family.
I was fascinated by things like having the vegetables served separately from the meat course and keeping the same knife and fork throughout.
I can't imagine having coffee with any meal apart from breakfast.
In hotels, I like to relax with my coffee in the lounge.
I had lunch once with an American couple in a nice restaurant and the husband asked for coffee.
He was brought a caffetiere of coffee and the waitress didn't turn a hair, perhaps she had served Americans before.
However, he was the only person in the restaurant who was drinking coffee.

Probably was wearing white trainers too. A pox on him!!!!

&quot;A GOOD chef will adapt to the desires of a customer.&quot; You mistake a chef with Burger King.

I think it is all what you are used to. I love coffee with my meal, and the waiters were very nice about not looking at me funny for ordering it that way.

Parisian coffee is heavenly, and Italian espresso is like manna.

White trainers, Rumpole?
I always see him in battered old brogues or possibly Hush Puppies. I expect that Hilda would smarten him up a bit for a posh restaurant. He wouldn't drink coffee with his meal, he'd prefer Chateau Thames Embankment.

Out of interest, I just looked up Vance Packard. He died in 1996.
I can certainly remember &quot;The hidden persuaders&quot; and &quot;The status seekers&quot;. He stirred up a lot of controversy at the time.
It's fun that he can still rouse passions.

What BS....you are the one paying you order what you want when you want it and if the palce can not or will not oblige take your business elsewhere. Look, no matter how hard all of you wannabes try to fit in you will always forever and ever be instantly identified as an American, Canadian, English, whatever tourist, so just get over it.

&quot;I know that there is no class distinction in the USA&quot;

Are you dreaming?

Crefloors, you made me laugh out loud!
Only a True Fodorite would say such a thing! I love it.

I didn't relize that top chefs were very ignorant people who don't realize that individual's taste buds differ.

Folks have varying numbers of taste receptors for different flavors: sweet, sour, hot, salty. That's why some people can gulp down very hot peppers that make most people choke and gasp--they have fewer &quot;hot&quot; receptors than average. And to one person the onion soup might taste just right, while another can't stand it because it's too salty--that can also be due to the number of salt receptors.

People do vary physically beyond just height, weight, and skin color--I really would hope that a truly good chef would recognize this and not think that what's 'perfectly seasoned' for his taste is 'perfect' for every human on the planet.

Hello blackduff - not only do some Swiss drink tea with fondue, we also dip our bread in Kirsch before dipping it in the cheese. Not every bite, of course, but try it sometimes. It's delicious ;-)

Waggis
I've heard about dipping the bread into the kirsch but I've never tasted this yet. But, I'm not so old that I won't get a chance.

Yummmm!

Blackduff

&quot;I didn't relize that top chefs were very ignorant people who don't realize that individual's taste buds differ.&quot;

You are right, Rufus. Top chefs do know that and are generally happy to try to make their customers happy -- with some limitations of course. But there are a few wannabe chefs who are so ignorant that they think everything they do is perfect and everyone should have the same taste. If they own and run a restaurant, they won't be around very long. Even places like French Laundry, Spago, Per Se, Taillivent, etc. will gladly adapt dishes according to their customer's wishes. Don't get me wrong, they won't substitute peanut butter for hollandaise, for example, but they work to make their customers happy.

Anyone who says that &quot;top chefs&quot; won't adapt simply doesn't know anything about top chefs or fine dining.

&quot;People who prefer soft bread are low class, and people who like firm bread are high class?&quot;

This is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever read on Fodor's, which is rather shocking since this forum is a usually a French farce.

I feel like ringing up Princess Michael of Kent on her mobile and saying, &quot;No more soft bread for you, Sharon!&quot;

I didn't read the comments regarding hard and soft bread and the
&quot;lack of class distinction&quot; in the states.

1. There is total class distinction in the US. There has been numerous documented studies about the lack of adequate veggies and fruits and general good quality meats in various poorer neighborhoods

2. While a chef should not completely redo his recipe to suit one diner, he should tailor it when possible.

3. Coffee is coffee. How I like to have it with my meal does not make me a stereotype of an American...whatever that statement means. It simply makes me a HUMAN BEING who likes her coffee with her meal.

Come on, it 2006, not 1946!

ImitationofChrist, I'm not sure how you managed to focus on that one silly idea. There are a number of the most outrageously wrong statements in this thread that I have ever seen assembled in one place.

Well then, go for it, blackduff. BTW, it also works as a digestive, and the ambiance at the table will most likely shift into high gear....so what's there not to love? :-)

How did we get from coffee to rolls and vegetables?

I'm still wondering about the class implications of pappadums versus chapati. Or about whether vegetarian pad thai is high-class by virtue of not mixing meat and veggies on one plate. Or about when it's acceptable to drink fermented mare's milk or horchata instead of coffee. Maybe some of those who have infallible knowledge of the absolute universal rules can clarify.

Having just returned from a four day weekend in Paris, I saw both coffee with dessert and after. I have relatives who drink coffee with the meal, but it was just too hot for that. I prefer coffee during breakfast and with dessert for other meals. What struck me more was Americans trying to tip the waiter. Obviously, they didn't read up on the VAT.

Huh? What in the world does VAT have to do with tipping? Did you drink too much wine, tgditmer?

VAT is tax. It has nothing in the world to do with service. For that matter tipping a waiter for service above and beyond is a separate issue from included service that a restaurant charges and adds to the bill or includes in the prices. No it is not &quot;necessary&quot; to tip a waiter when service is included, but it is not at all unusual either.

It really does not matter what others drink....If someone *wants* coffee during dinner, he can master the French phrase, &quot;Coffee now, please&quot;, say it when ordering and then again when the food is brought and repeat it, if necessary to the waiter as often as necessary until the wish is accomodated.

My dear, departed father never would have imagined drinking any other beverage w/his dinner, or any other meal for that matter.

What struck me more was Americans trying to tip the waiter.

You don't have to TRY to tip the waiter. He will gladly take your money.

Good night, Quentin :)

Yea, I kind of ignored that &quot;trying to tip the waiter&quot;. What did that mean? The waiter kept refusing it? Not likely!

&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
What struck me more was Americans trying to tip the waiter. Obviously, they didn't read up on the VAT.
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

Neo and imitation...did you see PALQ's thread on the VAT? perhaps this is a humourous reference to that thread in that a tourist paying the VAT would be giving a &quot;tip&quot;....the thread discussed if and how VAT is used for things that mainly benefit locals (eg the waiter).

My parents, and everyone they knew, washed down their meals with tea, and very occasionally coffee. (They also had breakfast, dinner and tea rather than breakfast, lunch and dinner.) I took this to be a working-class habit. Wine with meals, like the dinner party, was a minority taste in those days, and in any event booze of any kind was usually reserved for special occasions (or the pub).

I never see people drinking either tea or coffee with their meals these days, breakfast excepted, and Coke and other soft drinks are usually only provided for the kids. Iced tea, never. It won't come as any surprise that Australia has very few teetotallers, of course.

When we eat out a carafe of water (usually iceless, thank God) always turns up on the table, and while I tend to ignore it I've got used to the idea.