Chip and Pin Card from Capital One
 

Just to let you all know that Capital One wrote a letter introducing their chip and pin card and I have just received it. I didn't see anything about arranging for a new/different pin number though. Haven't had the opportunity to use it.

Anyone used his/hers yet?

Check it - does the chip become active automatically? We just rec'd barclays cards and the chip and pin usage becomes active only upon first foreign transaction with a swipe. (Yeah, I don't get it either, but there it is).

Assuming it does work you will find it very useful should you visit the Netherlands, as per your other thread, since very few places here still have the ability to swipe a card. Nearly all card readers here are chip only.

Which exact card is that? I just checked the Capital One website, and this is from their FAQ:

Is there any difference between a “Chip and PIN” card and a “Chip and Signature” card?

Both Chip and PIN and Chip and Signature cards offer better fraud protection than traditional magnetic stripe cards. The only difference is that the Chip and PIN card requires you to enter a PIN at checkout while the Chip and Signature card only requires your signature. Good news! <b>Capital One chip cards will be Chip and Signature cards, so there’s no additional PIN to remember.</b>

Actually <b>bad</b> news, if true.

<i>since very few places here still have the ability to swipe a card.</i>

Not my experience except in the train station where the ability existed but the order from above was not to allow it. All the coffee shops accepted our credit card, which was a good thing because many no longer accepted cash.

There is no such thing as a Capitol One Chip-and-PIN card. And it's kind of embarrassing to be looking for a PIN when the card does not offer that feature. The Capital One chip cards are Chip-and-Signature cards (with chip technology) but they require a signature to complete a transaction.

No matter how many times this gets explained, no matter how many websites there are that explain the differences, some people still don't quite understand what they have and what they don't have.

bookmarking

And some banks don't understand! I spent several hours conversing with several people at my bank before I convinced them to ask someone in their credit card division. They all just continued to assure me that I would, of course, get a PIN to go along with the card. I eventually got the answer I needed, but am not sure anyone with whom I spoke until that final person actually understood the difference.

It's not quite as simple as pin or no pin. Pins come in different varieties; not as many as Heinz 57 but enough to make the situation complicated, even for consumer service reps at various banks who may not live in the same country as you do and just read from a script. Having said that, the situation over the past little while has really stabilized in many respects even though we still sometimes have whining about lack of pins on American credit cards.

As of this writing, there is only 1 what one would call a "true" chip and pin card available to USA representatives from a financial institution. This is the UNFCU. Period no matter what else people may tell you. There are several banks that issue what for lack of a better term are called hybrid cards. They are primarily chip and signature but have the capabilities, in certain circumstances, of falling back and using a pin for purchases. I won't get into the difference between an online pin and an offline pin which is the source of some confusion. Every card with the emv chip has an order of preferences on the chip that specifies an order of preferences established by the bank to establish a verification method (called a cvm, card verification method) down through no cvm whatsoever. The terminal of the merchant also has its order of preference set by the merchant's bank and when they match, the transaction goes through.

Now almost every card does have a pin available for use in ATM's to make cash withdrawals where the first preference is almost always a pin. In general, it is recommended that one not use an ATM withdrawal of cash but there are some exceptions of enlightened banks whose credit cards do not charge fees for cash advances but we'll leave that aside. In some cases, that cash advance pin will work in a merchant's terminal which accepts online pins. For example, the Bank of America travel rewards card, a nice card to have as it has the proper annual fee (zero) and the proper foreign transaction fee (zero) does work with the cash advance pin in certain situations unbeknownst to the csr's at Bank of America.

However, like it or not, the die has been cast in the USA and despite what you may read or hear, the USA is not going chip and pin in the near future. It is going chip and signature. Visa, mostly took the lead on this, and insists most Americans prefer signature to pin (since many Americans carry multiple cards and might have difficulty matching up the right pin with the right card among other reasons. (No I'm sure it has nothing to do with the greater cost of implementing a chip and pin systems, now does it?) That is not going to change no matter how much whining some people do. Chip and signature is slightly less secure than chip and pin only in the case where the physical card is lost. But why worry? In the United States (as in other countries) you have no liability for fraudulent use of your card. If it happens, it happens and a few phone calls will resolve the issue. You'll get a card with a new number and life will go on. What is happening, though, is fewer and fewer kiosks are downright refusing to process USA chip and signature cards. Visa (and MC and Amex) have instituted regulations prohibiting rejecting cards solely fr lack of an offline and many places that once automatically rejected cards lacking pins now are required and indeed do take them such as the SNCF machines at CDG airport. I am sure there are still a few places where a chip and signature card will not work but a chip and pin card will but they are becoming rarer and rarer. So the whole argument has become pretty much moot.

Well darn it. I'll call and see what they say.

I had the same experience with Amex---two chip and signature cards but still no Chip & PIN. Frustrating.

Just out of curiosity, denisea, why do you think it's frustrating? Trust me from experience, the chip and signature cards which may have had problems in the past will work 99.9% of the time today when travelling in Europe.

I just went through this issue with Citibank. We have a USAA Mastercard that is chip and pin and when I received the Citi card with a chip on it, I assume it was also C and P. I went online to set up my PIN and then got a letter telling me the PIN was good for withdrawing cash from an ATM (I would NEVER use a cc for cash). When I called, the rep told me that their cards were only chip and signature and that she "had never heard of anyone having trouble in Europe with it."

Just to be safe, I'll stick with my USAA card as my major card. On a recent trip to Victoria, I used it three times with no problems. Just remember to set up a PIN number before you go--it can't be the same as your debit card if from the same bank.

It is frustrating because there is NO good reason to have a different system in the US. Plus I have my doubts about your 99.9% figure - I'd like to see some proof. Meanwhile, I will travel with my Pen Fed card which is chip and sig primary but chip and pin secondary and worked fine on my last trip to Europe, but I will miss the 1% rebate I got with my Cap One cards.

thursdaysd - why can't you carry both the Capital One card and the card with the chip? I have an Andrews Fed CC card with chip and pin/signature (asks for sig when there is a person, works fine with the pin in train station kiosks, gas stations, etc.). I also have a Capital One rewards card. That's the one I use to pay for hotels, purchases, etc. - the expensive stuff that I want the rewards for. I can live with out the rebate for a 14€ train ticket.

isabel - I do. I use the Cap One for hotels. But I don't want to carry more than one around in an easily accessible place. It is just ridiculous that I have to go through hoops to get even a chip plus sig/PIN card, and that I can't get my Cap One cards - which otherwise are designed for travelers - with chip and PIN.

xyz wrote, "why do you think it's frustrating? Trust me from experience, the chip and signature cards which may have had problems in the past will work 99.9% of the time today when travelling in Europe."

I could be wrong, but I've been assured that I <b>will</b> need a chip & PIN for toll booths in Spain, and since I'm about to take a road trip through Spain, I have found it VERY frustrating to try to ensure that I do, in fact, have true chip & PIN cards. I'm glad to say that I now have both UNFCU and AFCU cards that I have been assured really are chip & PINs -- I hope at least one is!

kja and others...Trust me the UNFCU card is indeed, as of now at least, a "true" chip and pin card. It is very easy to check it out. The only US retailer that has turned on emv acceptance at almost all its locations is Walmart. Go into any Walmart store and if you have an aversion to shopping at Walmart (many people do for some reason), buy a chocolate bar. Use your UNFCU card, insert it at the bottom of the terminal and you will see it asks for a pin as soon as it reads the chip. As of today, with the exception of some grandfathered mastercards issued by USAA, no other USA issued credit card will ask for a pin; rather it will complete the transaction without any further verification if the amount is small or ask for a signature. I call that the Walmart test. Of course, because of what USAA pulled about a year and a half ago when, probably bowing to the pressure from the card issuers or realizing that America was not going chip and pin, they withdrew the "true" chip and pin card and substituted the hybrid card similar to Andrews and the others i.e. a signature preferred card with pin fall back.

Let me make it clear, I was an original whiner about this as reports mounted of difficulties Americans were having in Europe, especially at self service kiosks with their magnetic strip chipless cards. There is a thread on Flyer Talk well over 700 pages long devoted to this which is two and a half years old. There were many complaints of people trying to use American cards and finding merchants refusing to complete transactions when a signature was requested under the mistaken impression their liability increased on a pinless transaction. Visa especially remained very adamant that the chip was the most important part of this and pins were not all that necessary as the chip in and of itself provides the security; the exception being if the actual card is lost and their statistics showed this is not a major problem. Since then the card issuers have issued new regulations prohibiting kiosks from not allowing chip and signature transactions and the number of such complaints has dropped substantially. If there is anybody out there who has recently, I stress recently, had any difficulties using a chip and signature card in Europe or elsewhere, please let us know. More and more I am reading on blogs of people returning from Europe who tell us they were shocked to find their chip and signature cards, despite the dire warnings from some, almost always worked everywhere they tried them. My complaint always had been the ticketing machines for the RER at CDG airport run by SNCF (the official name of the French National Railroad System( would not work without a pin making me have to get on a long queue to see a human. That has been rectified. Others have reported success even in Amsterdam with some of the ticketing machines. The new visa regulations seem to be having the desired effect.

Are there very isolated places where a chip and pin card is necessary? Well that's what we're going to find out by 01 July when the new regulations go into effect mandating all kiosks to have provisions to accept transaction without offline pins.

Until then, if one is very much paranoid about whether theist chip and signature cards will always been accepted, go out and get the card from UNFCU. It is not my favorite card as it imposes a 1% foreign transaction fee, 1% higher than it should be but then again I guess one can't have everything. Also, I can't guarantee they won't pull a USAA and change the cvm's to signature priority. Just recently, Navy FCU had announced they would be issuing a "true" chip and pin card and then suddenly without warning decided to go with chip and signature with pin back up. But do remember, if indeed the problem with non acceptance of signature priority cards has been more or less resolved, the security is a non issue as in the United States, and most other countries too, we have zero liability for fraud whereas there have been several instances, like in Great Britain a few years ago, where banks have tried to claim that some fraudulent activity with chip and pin cards was the fault of the cardholder until they discovered indeed some of these hacker groups had compromised the system. That is as sure to happen as the fact the sun will rise in the east tomorrow and set in the west. Just a matter of time, What's next? Retina scans?

What's next? Retina scans?<<<<<<< Perhaps so, xyz123-I just heard something on the radio about it and fingerprints (now available and hacked already). Thanks for your good info.

<i><font color=#555555>"As of today, with the exception of some grandfathered mastercards issued by USAA, no other USA issued credit card will ask for a pin"</font></i>

Sorry, but that's false info. Government employees have had access to chip/pin technology for some time. Pentagon employees need to travel with credit cards and their cards need to work all around the world while they conduct business.

If you can become a member of PenFed.org, you can have access to several chip-and-PIN Visa cards. They send you the PIN a day or two after you receive the chip card. If you qualify, some of their cards offer the best benefits in the industry, such as no Foreign Transaction Fee and the lowest APRs I've ever seen.

I have a PenFed card, which I got last year. I have a PIN for it. I used in Europe last fall. IT DEFAULTED TO CHIP AND SIGNATURE FIRST.

I have one from Chase (visa) and here in the states it is slid through magnetic strip exactly as normally done. When I travel to Europe they use the chip. I don't have a password so i just sign for it. It really doesn't change anything. Except it is probaby a little safer from theft if you use chip and password rather than signature.

<i><font color=#555555>"I have a PenFed card, which I got last year. I have a PIN for it. I used in Europe last fall. IT DEFAULTED TO CHIP AND SIGNATURE FIRST."</font></i>

Ok. I see some words, a few in caps, so I suppose you are angry about something, but I haven't a clue what the problem was.

1. Where did you use the card when it failed to accept a PIN? Or did it fail to accept a PIN? With all the yelling, it's difficult to discern whether the card did what it was supposed to do in the end.
2. Did you contact PenFed customer service?

THERE IS NO GUARANTEE that any credit card will work in every unmanned machine in Europe. If you get stuck in a credit-card-only toll lane on the highway, and your credit card decides to have a bad day, you have no choice but to endure the humiliation of either trying to back up your car against raving mad drivers behind you or move over to the side and find some attendant who can help you. Yes, if this happened to me, I'd be furious, and never approach a toll booth without cash again.

Plastic and chip technology are only great when they work. When they don't work, life can be rush to hell quite quickly.

Sorry NYC Food Snob...The new cards (issued since April 2014) of USAA have been read through card readers. Signature verification is a higher preference on all these newly issued cards than offline pin, which is what was being used in kiosks for the most part. Somebody claimed they had spoken to a csr at USAA who told him that members could request pin preferenced cards but nobody seems to have one. I will stand by my statement. The only card available to Americans today that one would consider a "true" chip and pin card that defaults first to pin verifications is being issued by UNFCU.

I used my USAA mc in Europe two years ago, before it was replaced, and it did default to pin verification. When I used it last summer, the replacement card that is, it defaulted to signature verification. The people at Flyer Talk are on top of this. Many are whining that their cards default to signature verification (although many do have pin backups) so if you follow that thread and if there is a US issued card that defaults to pin verification, it probably would have been posted there.

But I'm not saying this to be argumentive. Give the card the Walmart test and I'll bet a nickel, my usual bet, that it will not ask for a pin unless it is a foreign issued card or a card from UNFCU. When Bank of Montreal resurrected Diners Club in the USA, it was a "true" chip and pin card but they have stopped taking applications for the card in November.

I stand by what I have written.

@NYCSnob - I am shouting because you are not listening. The issue is not whether the card has a chip. The issue is not whether the card has a PIN. The issue is whether the card defaults to signature or to PIN as first choice.

I had no issues with the PenFed card, which did ask for my PIN a few times when I was buying transport passes, I just held up the line in stores while I had to sign instead of simply typing my PIN like everyone else.

NY Food Snob...maybe the problem is our definitions. Pen Fed issues cards which they claim to be chip and pin. I like one in particular which gives me a 5% rebate on all petrol purchases so I have the card and yes it is advertised as chip and pin. I used it at Walmart and it did not ask for a pin; it fell under the Walmart policy of not even requesting a signature for purchases under $50 but it did use the chip. I used the card in Europe and was asked for a signature.

Now again to repeat. From the beginning that in and of itself is not a problem. However in the past there have been some problems with merchants running the card through their pos terminal, seeing the message flash signature required and then voiding the transaction under the mistaken impression their liability increased because of lack of a pin. I was among those upset by the USA's banks decision to prioritize signature verification as I am sure we will agree for the most part signature verification is worthless (for our American members here, when is the last time a clerk even looked at the signature panel and in many cases merchants do not bother with signatures for small purchases which is allowed by the card networks while in Europe they always go through the pretense, at least, of looking at the signature. Whether a 16 year old clerk will do something about it is another question). In any event, the whole point here is that there were many kiosks that would not process a card without a pin and in that case the backup pin at Pen FCU and others would work. But many US issued chip cards do not have provision for offline pins. That is where the problem might have existed in the past. The card networks are claiming, again you can take this or leave this, that under new regs to take effect in July, such actions will not be allowed. It seems to be working based on the dramatic decrease in the number of complaints here and on other blogs.

So if you can show me a USAA issued mastercard which requests a pin at Walmart, then I lose my bet. But I don't think you can as I still think they don't exist.

Sweeties, I'm listening. But some of your frustration is over the top. Thirty years ago, almost no merchant in Europe accepted credit cards and very few hotel rooms had a private bathroom. Relax.

Some people will never be satisfied until they receive perfect, easy, and universal, as if that's ever going to happen. I mean really, these are competing financial institutions of the world we're talking about here. Photographers can never get Adobe and Apple to play like friends and talk sense to one another, and they're American companies, often with the same customers, who don't really compete (at least not much anymore). How can anyone expect more from worldwide banks?

If the PenFed card eventually worked, why scream about it defaulting to signature first? So you held up the line, big deal. The last time I shopped at Walmart, the woman in front of me pulled out a checkbook to pay for $62 of items. Who pays by check anymore? By the time she wrote out the check, showed her I.D., and helped the cashier find her Driver's License number so the cashier could write it on the check, I could have eaten two pints of Häagen-Dazs. Now that's a terror risk I can't afford.

These threads keep xyc123 busy. So I guess that's a good thing?

The whole of Europe has managed to move to chip and PIN. There is no good reason the US can't do so as well.

"Somebody claimed they had spoken to a csr at USAA who told him that members could request pin preferenced cards but nobody seems to have one."

I have one, but our Walmart are still the old style so it is a regular signature card there. However, as I stated above, I used USAA several times in Victoria last year and it asked for a PIN first. I remember it clearly because I didn't know that you had to put the card in at the bottom of the machine, so they instructed me on how to use it.

I consider it my patriotic duty to help people understand what's going on <g>. Actually, I've been saying the same thing in answer to those who whine about the USA not going chip and pin (I was one of them) and have been trying to show it probably doesn't matter any more although it did at one time if the US banks don't issue pins which is where this particular thread started. No intention on my part to be argumentive (although once I was). But as far as this thread is concerned, I have said my piece and tried to condense the 735 pages of the flyer talk thread into a couple of posts to help people understand. However, I do think there is something to be said for globalization and like so many things, I find the US for better or for worse to be most contrary minded on so many thing that seems to be no brainers.

But for now, over and out.

happytourist...I will respond even though I didn't intend to. It depends on when the card was issued and also whether or not you were at a pos terminal or an unattended type kiosk. USAA changed its cvm preferences in April 2014 to what other cards in the US are i.e. signature preference with a pin backup. Nothing wrong with that is the point I was trying to make but in a sense, it is not a "true" chip and pin card. Is it important? Probably not but many people as did the OP here were and remain upset their emv compliant cards either do not have pins or default as signature cards. All I've been trying to do is explain why; not to make a judgment on what is right and what is wrong.

<i><font color=#555555>"The whole of Europe has managed to move to chip and PIN. There is no good reason the US can't do so as well."</font></i>

When has the U.S. ever looked to Europe for guidance on anything? Have you driven Amtrak lately?

Talk about scratching your head and wondering what the cruck were they thinking…

Capital One, the American bank which prides itself on SERVING American TRAVELERS, launched an expensive ad campaign to promote its new Venture One VISA with CHIP-and-Signature technology, except someone neglected to tell the powers that be that a Chip-and-Signature feature is completely useless to travelers who travel outside the U.S.

When a Capital One "supervisor" insisted their Venture Card comes with a PIN, I told her to prove it. After leaving me on hold for several minutes, you had to hear the sigh of resignation when she got back on to say, "I can't believe it's only a chip-and-signature card."

I wrote a letter to the CEO, with her encouragement. We'll see what comes of it.

In the meantime, I always carry cash, which I know is not xyz's travel style.

My USAA card was issued last August, after I called and specifically requested chip and pin.

Not quite sure of the logic that because Europe does it, it is only "logical" for the US to do it. One could make the reverse argument just as easily, not to mention Europe isn't the only place in the world. Different countries do different things, that's all.

I have a Cap One MC, wonder if they are just reissuing them all or what, I haven't heard anything. I'm annoyed with them right now anyway, as they have changed their system that if you want to make a foreign purchase online, for example, you have to tell them the exact merchant's name and the exact amount. THis is ridiculous, you'd have to call them for every purchase and also know the exact amount (I wonder if the person who told me that even comprehended the price would be in euro). I insisted on speaking to a supervisor who verified that and then said they cold put a blanket permission on my card for a country, but only for two days, that was it. They still allow you to put in travel notes, thank goodness, but if you aren't traveling yet they are becoming very difficult to use.

I asked when this started and the guy (as usual) claimed he'd been there for years, blah blah and it had always been this way. Which wasn't true, just last summer I called up as I was going to be making online purchases for my trip and had no problem with just saying up to x amt, these countries over the next month or so. That's what I did with my Chase SWA Visa which also has no foreign transaction fee, and they had no problem with it, so I'm only using them for my advance online purchases.

There are a few good threads on this topic already but I'll chime in with one other option: I have a Commerce Bank issued chip and pin card that I got after exploring a variety of options.

Pros:
1. No account required with them
2. Don't need to be in their service area
3. No annual fee
4. Has a real pin that definitely works at kiosks, etc. in Europe-- you get to set your own PIN

Cons:
1. Defaults to chip and signature at manned spots (ie restaurants). This REALLY bugs me even though the card works fine.
2. Has ForEx fees (not huge but a negative compared to many other cards)
3. Had to call to set up PIN and the interface was confusing (as I recall it had a default PIN that wasn't clearly shared and you needed it to then set a new PIN)

Just spoke with Ryan at Cap One. The card I received is a chip and sig. Not a true chip--unlikely that it will work at unmanned places in Europe.

So, NYCFoodSnob, I had the same conversation! I dare say the percentage of Americans who travel overseas and DIY with unmanned things are too much in the minority to justify this technology at this point. I'll write also.

Christina, my Cap One card is a Visa-do you suppose that is why you didn't get the letter and new card?

<i>unlikely that it will work at unmanned places in Europe.</i>

It probably will, although I would not try it first in an unmanned highway booth. The card should default to a PIN number where there is no attendant.

Michael - it doesn't sound like TDudette's card has a PIN at all.

The PIN probably has to be set.

"The PIN probably has to be set." -- After several EXTENDED discussions with various banks and credit card companies over the past few months, I am convinced that many (most? all?) Chip and Signature cards have PINs that can NEVER be used to authorize a payment. I'm no expert.