Child Safety Warning Beware Alitalia
 

We booked flights to Venice on Delta, turns out to be an Alitalia code share. We were shocked to discover that the airline absolutely forbids the use of our FAA Aviation approved child safety seat. We were forced to have the seat taken from us and the baby held in our arms. (There were pleny of available seats, three within 10 feet of us)
When I complained, the third time we were permitted to use the seat for cruise as a safety precaution against turbulence on the transalantic leg but were told the seat would be taken from us before landing. Sure enough, two stewards showed up to forcibly remove my 11 month old son from his safety seat and confiscate the seat before landing. Just to make matters better, our seat was positioned so that the overhead bins were positioned with the lip overhead instead of over the aisle as usual. We discovered this when a heavy object (15 or 20 lbs) fell from the overhead bin on takeoff, striking my wife in the leg as she held our infant son.
When I requested the name of the captain, a few minutes later I was asked to come to the flight deck.
There, I met the captain, who told me abruptly that I should be glad the infant was allowed at all (we paid for a reduced ticket), thought he was very generous to break the rules to allow us to have the seat during cruise and he claimed that Italian aviation regulations do not permit the use of infant safety seats. He also somewhat belligerently informed me that FAA certification did not matter and the FAA did not rule the world, quite an obvious chip on his shoulder. I asked him why he permitted it in cruise and not on takeoff, telling him I was concerned about my childs safety. He stated that if I was concerned about the safety of my son I should keep him on the ground. Very confidence inspiring! We met other tourists who purchased the infant seat especially for their trip, also not permitted to use the safet seat on Alitalia. We return to the US tomorrow, please wish us safety. Venice was great, a longer report later but Alitalia obviously cares little about their passengers safety, refusing basic simple safety precautions such as a child safety seat and checking the overhead bins latches.
My family will certainly never fly Alitalia again, I do not appercaiate Delta taking our money and puting us on this substandard airline with no notion of safety.
I have flown many, many airlines, from third world on up, but this is the most blatant refusal to allow simple basic safety standards I have aver seen, even on Royal Jordanian, way near the bottom of the barrel.
There were very few children on our flight and no other infants. If you care about the safety of your children (and yourself), I would urge you to consider a different carrier.

Oh, how I can sympathize with you!!!
Alitalia is barbaric!!
I just returned from Venice on Alitalia...it was the wildest !!! The staff had no control over the passengers.....landing at Newark...as the wheels barely touched the ground....dozens of passengers scambled from his/her seats....and opened the bins....everything flying around.
BUT...that was the least of the many 'insults' endured. I am an idiot, I had flown with Alitalia before...thought I'd give 'em another round.
NOT AGAIN!!!

Wow! Was considering Alitalia flight to Venice early next year. This sounds horrible! Although I don't have any children, the apparent lack of safety or service is truly appalling.

I do want to be accurate, the seats were so so, the cabin staff was pleasant and tried to be nice, food was not bad. It was the safety attention and bizarre rules that were so appalling. I can only imagine what their other safety rules could be if they believe with takeoff, landing, turbulence a baby is safer held in the mothers arms than secured in their approved safety seat. I know that takeoff and landing is the most dangerous part of the flight and the captain could not deny it. His assertion that we could use the seat for cruise (grudgingly, after several complaints) but must have it forcibly removed (while my sone was sleeping) and confiscated for landing was not rational and flies in the face of all safety studies in any civilized country.

I am certainly planning a formal complaint with the FAA that they allow this for a flight originating in the US and perhaps other legal options. My Son is precious to me, Alitalia could care less about the safety of my family.

wbowles:

I'm not sure I understand what you were expecting. Did you pay for a seat? If not, I don't think any airline is obligated to put your infant in one, whether you've brought a safety seat with you or not. Perhaps I'm not getting what the issue is here...........

The issue is not paying for a seat. The issue is that they do not permit the use of child safety seats, period. They claim it is an Italian aviation safety regulation, a highly doubtful claim.
In the US you would be fined and possibly arrested for child endangerment for not using a safety seat. The Alitalia Captain on both of our flights did not permit the use of the child safety seat under any circumstances.
This is a shameful stance for an airline and indicates both great ignorance of safety and a total lack of caring for their customer's welfare.

I have the same question as StCirq. Did you purchase a seat for your son? They may have been reacting to your expecting a seat for the reduced price of a lap held infant.

Cheers,
Jan

Put me in the confused group. If you paid for you son's seat, why did they make you hold the baby in your arms? A paying customer is a paying customer.

I can understand (somewhat) that the Italians don't have to follow the U.S. FAA regulations. Maybe there should be an international infant seat standard? Something for the U.N. or WHO to think about.

Maybe the pilot should watch that Jeff Bridges movie (Fearless, I think) about the plane wreck.

I believe that all of our kids and their safety are precious to us. So, for the sake of avoiding problems like this in the future, I strongly advise you, and other travelers who have infants to ask the rules beforehand, meaning before buying the air tickets.

Safety seats, when allowed, shall be placed on an assigned seat. Otherwise, the infant shall travel on his/her parent lap, with a proper safety belt attached to the parent's, and/or on a bassinet when cruising, provided that you booked a center seat on the first row..

If they do not allow safety seats under ANY circumstances (including when someone pays for a seat), well, that's certainly rather bizarre. But would you still be this outraged, wbowles, if the flight had been full, with no empty seats? Wasn't that a possibility from the time you bought your tickets? Seems to me there was never any guarantee that your child was going to be able to do anything other than sit on your lap.

Now, if you'd purchased a seat and then were told you couldn't use the safety seat in it, there would be undenial justification for outrage.

I have three children, live in Europe and have traveled with them regularly. I never see children in special seats on airlines in Europe, and I have never used them. We sometimes took a small travel seat, but did not use it on the flight, as it was not allowed. I know there has been a discussion about this before, and someone said that the general opinion in Europe is that it is not safe to use childseats on a plane.
And if you do not buy a seat for the child, you certainly have no absolute right to use one.

wbowles says that they paid for a reduced ticket, which is standard for that age unless you plan on holding him/her in your lap. If you pay for a seat, you should be able to supply the necessary accomodations for that person. A baby can't sit in an airplane seat, so what does Alitalia expect? Why should you have to pay the fare if you're required to hold him? As a mom of two toddlers I will NEVER fly Alitalia, even when traveling without the kids. Thanks for the warning, wbowles. I hope you were able to enjoy your trip. I look forward to your report!

An infant airfare ( for children below 2 yaers old), costs 10% of the adulf fare, and doesn't allow a seat. The infalt is supposed to travel on the parent's lap. or on a bassinet, provided that the parents booked a forst row, center seat.

A child fare ( for children between 2 and 12 y.o.) costs from 50 to 75% of the adult fare, and a seat is provided, as well as a seat belt.

For different airlines and countries, different rules apply, so, it's wise to ask before buying your ticket.

Just a few things-the FAA does not rule the world. It is an American agency and it oversees all airlines that fly in and out of the USA on basic safety issues,english language spoken on transponders,etc.. There seems to be more to this story as I am very confused.Have you called Alitalia and spoken to a supervisor? I would get a complete clarification from them directly and then get back to us. European Airlines are all different.As to the carryon bins-ever been on an Italian train or bus when it stops?

I also live in Europe and fly regularly to the US with two toddlers. We have always used our carseats in PURCHASED seats. There has never been a problem. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a translation issue exacerbated by an irate passenger. An infant fare in lap is about 10% of full fare. A child's fare is about 50% generally. The child gets a seat, the infant doesn't unless the infant pays the child's fare. It makes sense to me.

I think the pilot was being a harda$$ b/c you didn't pay the appropriate fare and just perhaps, you were being belligerant?

Cheers,
Jan

Those interested in this subject should consult alitalia's website

http://www.alitalia.it/en/fly/travel...ts/infants.htm

and it's Seats for Infants section. The rules for Alitalia are clearly different from many US-based airlines, which do allow and even encourage approved infant seats.

The Alitalia site does indeed claim that on Alitalia flights, it is not possible to book individual seats for infants, and that during take-off and landing they require small children to sit on the lap of the person accompanying them. So the captain, for better or worse, was indeed following his airline's regulations. The site goes on to mention something about a child seat belt to be used during takeoff and landing, but I'm not clear from the site how this works; wbowles, were you issued such a belt?

Moral of story: be sure to establish beforehand if your airline of choice permits specialized infant aviation seats.

Safe travels back! I would let Delta know your concerns also. Good luck!

Sue, thanks for the clarification. It is surprising to me that Alitalia doesn't allow infant safety seats, because when I was pregnant and researching car seats, European countries seemed to be ahead of the US in terms of car seat design and safety regulations. Why do they throw all of that out the window when you get on an airplane? Doesn't make sense to me.

And no, the airline should not be obligated to supply you with a seat if you haven't paid for one, but if there's an empty seat right beside you, might you not put your purse there? Or stretch out across both seats? Why is it different if you let your baby sleep there?

To my knowledge, there is no EU gov't regulation on the use of carseats on aircraft. The UK govt. leaves the rules on carseats up to the airline; it is probable that other European govt's do the same. I've had several UK-based airlines refuse to allow my private carseat on board; my solution was not to fly UK carriers over the water.

Quoting the FAA to a representative of a foreign flag carrier is NOT a good idea; it is pretty much guaranteed to make them defensive. However, if you purchased a seat for the child, you do have a case for complaining to Delta, at least if you advised them that you would be using a carseat and made sure that the seat you were assigned was in a legal position to allow for its use.
If that was the case you should have been advised to Alitalia's policy and offered a different flight.

Bottom line is that if you didn't actually purchase an aircraft seat for the child's use, they were under no obligation to allow you to place him in one, carseat or not.

I feel like it was maybe their attitude and actions that made it worse than their policies. And the overhead bin added insult to injury. I remember as a kid that we stood on seats in the car and now they have requirements, etc. Also other countries do not have requirements for handicap people, etc. like we do. Some countries have different ideas and rules about safety. Granted, you mentioned I thik it was a code share which may have taken you by surprise and you would not have been familiar with their rules and therefore not prepared. And there are also people who would rather hold their child than pay for a seat, not caring about safety, but they flat out don't want to spend the extra money. I agree that it should be required for reasons of safety and comfort for all passengers.

I always bought tickets for my small children when I was going back home to visit my family.Although that was quite expensive for my limited budget,I did not mind, I cared about their safety and comfort more .

I'm still confused. Did you or did you not purchase a seat for your infant? If you did not, then you are not entitled to a seat for that infant. Purchasing an infant fare does not entitle you to another seat.
If you did pay a child's fare, you are entitled to a seat for that child, and I would be plenty upset if they didn't let me use it--obviously an 11 month old can't sit in a regular seat so the car seat is the only solution. If you did indeed purchase a child's fare (seat), then I would take it up with Delta.

I've never seen car seats for children being used on flights within Europe - I'd be very surprised if any airline will allow them. However, my understanding is that this is because European car seats are designed differently in that they have to use (in a car) both the lap and chest strap, and as a result if it's used in a lap-belt only seat it isn't stable enough to be safe.

I'd complain to Delta - especially if it wasn't clear this was a code share.

A slight twist on this regarding something I saw on an Alitalia flight last month. My friend and I had side by side aisle seats. There were two women behind her with a small child - perhaps 3-4. They did not have a seat for the child, he sat on one or the other's lap. If this had been an infant, no problem - but there really was not room for the three of them in the two seats they had. This meant the child was constantly kicking and pushing against my friend's seat. (In addition to leaning forward and pulling her hair - which is a parenting issue, not an airline one) I remarked to her that an American airline would have insisted that this child have his own seat. (I think) It was a very uncomfortable flight for my friend, luckily it was less than two hours.

celticdreams; a child over 2 must have a seat; if this child did not have a seat, the airline must have broken it's own rules. It is certainly not allowed.

To clarify several questions raised:

1. Yes, we purchased a reduced fare infant ticket.

2. No, this is not a fare or seat purchase issue. They do not allow the safety seats, period, seat or no seat purchased.

3. Yes, this is their actual policy, not an isolated incident. Same thing for our two return legs, we met several others in the same situation. From their official website at http://www.alitalia.it/en/fly/travel...ts/infants.htm
"Seats for infants
It is not possible to book individual seats for infants. During take-off and landing we require small children to sit on the lap of the person accompanying them. You will be provided with a child seat belt to ensure their safety at these points during the flight."

4. Yes, this is ridiculously unsafe. We experienced significant turbulence and my wife was struck by a heavy bag falling from the overhead bin on takeoff while holding our son. The stewardesses apologized for it being unsafe but said they had no choice as this is their policy. The Captain advised me to keep my son on the ground if I was concerened about his safety. This warning, issued on the flight deck at 35,000 feet was not especially encouraging.

5. Yes, an 8.5 hour transatlantic flight with an infant on your lap is both unsafe and as miserable as you would expect. Not too fun for those around, either. Other airlines have no problem making the flight both safe and much more pleasant for all involved.

6. No, we did not book Alitalia, we booked Delta. I am not too pleased with Delta for this and would encourage all parents of small children to take great care to ensure that they are not booked on an Alitalia flight.

Regards,

Wally

If you booked Delta, I would definitely take it up with them as it is their code-share. Perhaps they are not aware of this unsafe practice--they just need someone to complain and bring it to their attention.

Message: Wally, what you went through is appalling. I do hope that you follow up with the FAA and Delta, as well as Alitalia.
For the record, if there is an empty seat on an American carrier, it is always encouraged to use it for a childseat. It would be one thing if a person assumed that despite not buying a ticket for a carseat that there would be a seat for them, but yours was clearly not this case. Alitalia has an unsafe and unacceptable policy period. Foreign carrier or not. It is a service to anyone with a baby to know about it. By the way, getting hit with a bag/object out of the overhead is a HUGE deal and I would definitely stress it in your communications.

I have two small children and have flown several times, always purchasing a seat for my child. I'm a little surprised by this, but then again - different countries, different rules.

For future travel I am glad to know this because I probably would have just made the assumption as you did. Especially having booked with an American airline would have thought the same rules would have applied throughout the travel. I'm sorry that you had to learn this lesson in such a manner, but am glad that you posted about it so that we (other parents on this board) may learn from your experience and be more dilligent about regulations with foreign companies.

What amazes me is that I am not allowed to hold my purse during take off and landing, but I am allowed to hold a infant?! Just doesn't make sense to me.

If you are going to crash, baby seat or no seat, you are not going to survive. If there is a lot of turbulence, I think I would rather hold my infant in my arms to console her/him rather having the infant in the seat crying by her/himself.

Some crashes are survivable. People do survive certain kinds of planes crashes. But not if they are flying all over the cabin instead of buckled in their seats.

If the turbulence or whatever is bad enough you won't be able to hold on. The baby is better off locked down in a seat. That is why they don't let babies ride in their mother's arms in cars anymore.

Quote: "For the record, if there is an empty seat on an American carrier, it is always encouraged to use it for a childseat."

Just FYI, this is not precisely true. It depends on where the empty seat is. Carseats must be used in a position where they will not impede egress from the aircraft in the event of an emergency. This means that that they can only be placed in the window position or in the center seat of a center row on a widebody. They also cannot be placed in a rear-facing seat, or in the row before or behind an exit row.

wbowles, it still is not clear what type of ticket you bought from Delta for your infant. Did you buy a seat or not? Because if you didn't, then why did you even take the car seat? Even Delta won't give necessarily give you a seat you haven't paid for. Their policy is pretty clear and if you weren't sure, you should have called.

http://www.delta.com/travel/trav_ser...ares/index.jsp

Alitalia's policy seems very wrong, but your specific problem begins and ends with yourself. You made a lot of assumptions without making sure of what you would be able to do.

Barbara,

In repsonse to your question on what type of ticket I bought for the infant, two things. First, that is not the issue, they do not allow the infant seats, period.
Second, from the Alitalia website reference above:
"It is not possible to book individual seats for infants. "

Nough said. The issue is not whether the passenger spends more or less, the issue is that they _do not permit_ infant safety seats, period, under any circumstances.

Wally

One last question, Wally: having NOT paid for a seat for your infant, assuming you were flying Delta, as was your intent, and assuming the Delta flight being full, where would this safety seat would be placed?

Wally, I think the reason some want to know if you purchased a seat for the baby is because:

If Delta, who DOES allow one to purchase a seat for infants and then use a child safety seat ON that purchased seat, SOLD you a seat ticket for the child, then Delta owes you a refund on the child's seat ticket purchased. Also, Delta should have advised you that if you flew their codeshare the rules were different and no seat would be provided, so there was no reason to purchase a ticket for the baby.

I understand your point that holding the infant is unsafe, but in your first post you say "we were forced to have the seat taken from us and the baby held in our arms. There were plenty of seats, three within 10 feet of us), which implies that you wished to place the carrier in an empty seat, so the question of whether you paid Delta for a seat for the child IS relevant.

To try to clarify a little, when you booked did you expect to be flying on Delta planes, or did you know at that time that you would be flying Alitalia? Did you just arrive at the gate and, lo and behold, it was an Alitalia plane?

To answer your questions:

Surlok: Since I did not have a guaranteed seat, my presumption would be to 1) use an available seat if available, which it was indeed on each of our four flight legs. This was not guaranteed but highly probable 2) Use the infant seat bulkhead bracket provided for this purpose by many airlines. Presumably this is why Alitalia seated us at the bulkhead 3 out of 4 times. These brackets, however, had been removed, leaving only the three mounting holes in the bulkhead or 3) Use the carseat on the floor without a seat area. This would be the least preferable but still safer than loose. I do have a photo of the Alitalia approved bassinet they did let us use briefly on one leg in this position, sort of a tray, no restraint. A buckled safety seat in this location, while the least desirable solution, would have provided some more safety with the hard plastic enclosure. The seat we brought was a prone infant style, as my son is 11 months.
You raise a valid point that my son was not entitled to a guaranteed seat. However, a seat is still usually available, as it was on all four denied legs. A seat was available and was used on the two Delta legs, as is the norm for travelling with an infant. Do also note, that Alitalia will not permit a seat to be booked for an infant, period. Again, it's not a money issue, it's a bizarre regulation issue. If you bought a non first class ticket and were then barred from using empty seats in a lifeboat on the Titanic, I believe you would also have some grounds for offense.

Melj: Your point is similar, but again, all other airlines I have ever flown (and they are many) do offer the resources they have available to maximize their passengers comfort and safety, Alitalia does not. If they have an empty seat and my son can use it, they are wrong to deny me the use. I am not a freeloader, I bought 4 full price tickets, plus paid a partial fare and fees on the baby amounting to about 30% of the cost of the full adult fare with the taxes and fees included and note again that the purchase of the seat was not an option "It is not possible to book individual seats for infants." Alitalia's general attitude towards their customers may also be illustrated by the fact that they made the crossing with two thirds of their first class seats empty. While I am not an Alitalia frequent flyer (and never will be) it's hard to see how they are operating in the best interests of either their company or their passengers by wasting this valuable resource rather than awarding these wasted upgrades to some of their loyal flyers.

Barbara: You have a valid point, I knew after purchase that these would be Alitalia codeshares. I admit my ignorance in never considering the possibility that the most basic, simple safety precautions that all airlines normally engage in would be banned. For example, I also failed to check whether they provided seatbelts for their adult passengers, I assumed that they were a first world, safety concious and responsible carrier. I will not make that mistake again. My goal in this post was to alert others who might also make the same assumptions, as I think most parents would.
Thanks,
Wally

Wally

If you are interested, check out a site called airlinesafety.com, you will find this issue of infant seating is quite a passionate one there. The editor outlines quite a long rationale for why he believes harnesses that secure the infant to the parent during landing and takeoff (I think one quoted example was something called 'Baby B'air') ought to be permitted.

I note that as of today's date at least, Delta's web site does seem to indicate which flights are code shares. However, the onus is left to the consumer to research whether rules for the code-sharing airline differ in any significant way. (Seems to be mainly a problem with international as opposed to domestic code shares.) Code shares can be problematic for other reasons - rules about baggage allowances, etc. can differ too. 'Buyer beware' never applies so much as in the travel industry, alas.

I've been following this thread with interest. I've been watching fares to Italy on Travlelocity etc. I wondered how the Delta flights "operated by Alitalia" would differ from a regular Delta carrier. I am a very cautious flyer and after reading all of this I would NEVER put my family on an Alitalia flight. I make my kids wear their seat belts at all times because I have seen people fly out of their seats when encountering unexpected turbulance.

Wally, I never did see your answer regarding whether or not you knew in advance that you would be on an Alitalia flight or if you thought it would be a Delta flight. We fly Delta alot and that's something I want to find out.

A friend of mine who is a flight attendant sums it up precisely. She refers to babies not strapped in a child seat as "bullets".