Cheated While Dining in Venice?
 

Had dinner with my wife at a pizzeria/restaurant in Venice a few days ago. We had an expensive lunch and wanted a cheaper dinner. The place seemed moderately priced - primi at 7-10 euro, secondi at 12-18 euro.

We each ordered a pasta and branzino and shared a bottle of wine. The fish was listed on the menu at $5/100g, which seemed reasonable, thinking a portion size would average 350g (we thought it tacky to ask the size, but knew from reading various guides). Well the fish dishes came out and looked huge. Again, I was unsure what to do, not wanting to appear tacky by questioning. I assumed it was more than 350g (I had no idea what 350g was and had never ordered by the gram). Nevertheless, I assumed it would be 400, 450g maybe. We ate maybe half of our dish as it was way too big.

Well the check came, and apparently we were each given a 700g portion of branzino. What was to be a moderately priced meal at an unimpressive pizzeria, turned into a $165 meal after mandatory service was added. I feel cheated. I could have gone to quite a fancy place and gotten entrees for cheaper than $100 for two. I would like to dispute the extra $50 + service with my credit card. What do you think?

By $5, I meant 5 euro.

Forget it and move on.

I would guess that you were being charged for a whole fish. You would normally be shown the whole raw fish and if you approve it would be cooked for you. If you ask for it fileted, much of what you are paying for is being tossed out or saved for stock..the same as is you would buy a whole fish at a fish market in the US. So you were paying for 1400 grams, which is about one and a half kilos or very loosely a 3 pound-plus branzino, which I guess would be a normal size for two considering the waste generated by the fileting procedure. Learn from the experience and next time ask them to show you the fish and do not be afraid of being tacky.

I agree..just move on. Something similar probably would have happened to me beacause I probably wouldn't have said anything either, but it would have been my fault for not speaking up about the portion size etc. So, just figure live and learn.

if it were whole fish, that is not an excessive size at all. if it was in filet, it was on the larger side for two people.

one should always specify the size of the portion you want when it is charged by the gram (i'm sure this is obvious to you now). it is not tacky to ask the default size (but this is meaningless - you are the customer and normally the restaurant will just tell you the minimum order size and you specify what you want...they should not tell you what you want). if you can't visualise by weight then you can ask the 'recommended' size and decide from there.

no big deal...as cato says, just forget it. every traveler is taken advantage of (not sure you were but anyway) at some point or another.

I don't think you will get anywhere if you dispute the charge.. as you say, you were ordering based on "assuming" certain things which turned out not to be true. I also doubt if you could have gone to a "fancy" place in Venice and had a full meal for much less than $100 USD, which is about 75 Euro. The upscale places in Venice cost a lot more than 37 Euro per person. Venice is expensive and with two pastas, two orders of branzino and a bottle of wine, you may have been charged more than you wanted to pay for a meal you did not feel was worth the money but I do not think you were cheated.

The waiter asked if I would like a filet at ordering. I said yes.

EKS, for $100, certainly not. But, this meal was $165 at an unassuming pizzeria. The fish alone was $110 with service charge. The following night I had a great meal for $140 at a nice osteria.

We had the same experience at a restaurant near the port in Marseille...a very large whole fish cooked over a wood fire came to around $200--and a great shock that was.

sorry, i misread your post. 700g EACH and 1400 total i now understand. but my answer does not change. move on and learn for next time. if you are asked if you want it fileted, this means that the price is for whole fish (you pay for it all). if it is priced as a filet, you would not be asked this. best to clarify if there is any doubt as to the pricing.

nothing to be ashamed of though. i think pricing this way is common and necessary for a place selling good fish...it can, however, be confusing to the customer (e.g. is it for a whole fish,etc). if a restaurant makes you feel bad for clarifying what you are getting for your money, choose another restaurant. i don't think many restaurants would treat you badly for asking, however. if they do, it's not a good sign.

&quot;<i>I would like to dispute the extra $50 + service with my credit card. What do you think?</i>&quot;

I think 100% <b>not</b>. You ate the meal and now want the CC company to give you credit because the serving was too large?? Much the same as going to a restaurant and ordering something new, not liking it much and disputing the cc charge cuz it wasn't to your liking . . .

Yup JamesBBB, you were skee-rooed. Learn by it.

A waiter in Madrid tried to con me but I refused to pay the exhorbitant bill he presented after dinner. Several of the staff came over to my table. I stood my ground and we finally settled at the price on the menu. A similar thing happened at a restaurant in the Plaka of Athens. Ask for the price of everything they bring to the table.

Just a quick question. I understand, if I was not cheated, then fine. I learn from it and ask next time. But, if I was cheated, in the age of credit cards, with companies offering such protection, why not take advantage of it. If many similar travelers like me report such experiences, it might cause the credit card to think twice about doing business with the establishment.

I think you are going to have a hard time proving you were cheated:

Your words include &quot;...thinking a portion size would average 350g&quot;

&quot;...I had no idea waht 350g was and never ordered by the gram.&quot;

&quot;...not wanting to appear tacky by questioning....&quot;

They gave you a huge portion; you didn't ever say &quot;this is too big&quot; or anything else in protest.

Would you have felt better if you had ordered this in some sort of NON &quot;unassuming&quot; restaurant?

IMO you need to chalk it up to experience and I still don't think you were cheated.

Sometimes such things leave a bitter taste in your mouth ;-)

However I think you should do one of 2 things.
1. Move on. Put it down to experience
or
2. Set fire to the restaurant, steal the wheels off the owners car leaving it on bricks and kidnap his dog.

Now; you will have thought that item 2 would make you feel better, and it probably has, so with that in mind just do item 1.

Good luck and a happy new year

Muck

They also serve fish this way in Marseille as another poster mentioned. It is a luxury dish despite its simple preparation. You are paying for the quality and freshness of the fish. I always ask the general weight. After eating a specific fish a couple of times you have a general idea of how much it will cost.

I dont think you were deceived. You pay for the fish by weight including bones etc. As ekscrunchy mentions, it seems like a reasonable weight for 2 people.

Perhaps it could be categorized as mislead. I do not know where you ate but i have noticed in Marseille, the tourist restaurants on the Vieux Port are only a hair cheaper for whole fish than the finer restaurants in the city. You certainly get a better dining experience at a finer restaurant for only a small amount more on the bill.

I think the route mucky proposes is too good for such felons, I think that instead of taking the wheels off the owners car and setting it on bricks you should have tied the bricks around their feet and tossed them into the Grand Canal (or employ my pal 'Mugsy' to do the job, he'd come cheaper than the fish...)

Seriously, I agree with others - I think the place exploited you but when you ate the meal, or even only part of it, you were in essence accepting the deal and it is now too late to complain to the CC (but see below).

For the record: our local fisheries department (province of Nova Scotia) gives the following info: whole fish just as it comes from the water yields 2 to 4 servings per kilogram, which of course is 1000 gm (just over 2 pounds.)

Reading your post, I recalled an organization I heard of called &quot;Venice No Problem&quot; or something like, which deals with tourists who feel they've been exploited by local merchants. You can read about it here:
http://tinyurl.com/ycaog5

Note the author does mention the ordering of fish by weight &quot;which isn't necessarily dishonest.&quot;

I think the mistake was in ordering 2 Branzino .. a branzino weighs about 2 pounds and will adequately feed 2 people. When the waiter asked if you wanted it fileted, he was asking if you wanted him to take it off the bone for you after it was cooked.

this is a good lesson for everyone to understand how some thngs are done differently, AND to not be embarrassed to say something on the order...&quot;Do you have a small one?&quot; and let the waiter know you are preferring he look for one of the smaller fish.

in fact, you can even tell them not to go over a certain weight and they wll converse with you on what is back in the kitchen as far as size goes.

i do not understand where you think you can get a CC refund for a fish you ordered and partially ate.

perhaps you should have contested it at the restaurant, but.. i agree with the others to move on.. learn a lesson and stay away from &quot;weighted&quot; foods unless you are willing to pay for it.

it is a very common practice for fresh fish ,seafood, even specialty steaks..

Hi J,

You weren't cheated. You just assumed too much.

Branzino (a sea bass native to the Venetian Lagoon) runs about 500 - 1200 g.

Thanks for the heads up.

We all now know to specify how much fish we want.

The same is true of Florentine steak. It is charged by weight, and you will usually be given about 1 kg if you don't ask for less.

((I))

I would guess that the branzino the OP ate was not from the Venetian lagoon but was farmed. There has been lots of success recently with farmed branzino. When you walk through the Rialto fish market, take a look at the fish...the origins are always indicted and much of it comes from a long way away from Venice and much of this fish is farmed, not wild. Same thing with turbot and many other fishes. A sad commentary, in my opinion.

Here is another tip when ordering fish in italy. If it has an asterisk net to the name on the menu, it is frozen.

I'm curious. If they brought a bottle of wine not on the list and showed you the label, would you have accepted it because you didn't want to appear tacky by questioning them, and then screamed when it ended up costing $500?

Your guessing at what something would cost -- even AFTER you admit you knew it was a lot bigger than expected and even more than you wanted, was your ONLY mistake. Chalk it up to experience and the next time ask them how much &quot;that fish&quot; will cost.

you were sold something you didn't want. you can't get a CC refund because you willingly went along with it. no fraud involved. they could have been more helpful to make you understand what you were getting and what it would cost but as the customer it is your role to ensure you get what you want. it's his role to sell you the most/best he can.

if you owned a restaurant that catered to mostly tourists and someone ordered a fish without indicating what size fish they wanted, would you reach for the largest fish in the chest or the smallest. me too.

A server friend of mine is always getting into trouble with management because when they offer a &quot;special&quot; not on the menu and it is a lot more than the average entree, he casually mentions the price when he desribes it. Management insists he is only to mention price IF the customer asks. Yet, Doug feels better saying that this special dessert is $11 when all the other desserts are $7. Or mentioning that the filet stuffed with lobster tail is $48, nearly double the price of most of the other items on the menu. The only reason they don't fire him is that he has more requests as a waiter than anyone else.

Some of my wealthier friends are embarrassed when we eat out together and after hearing every single special, I'm asking, &quot;And how much is that one?&quot; But hey, if they're not paying for the meal, I want to know.

JamesBBB - I feel your pain. I hold on to such things and have a hard time letting go because I do not want to feel screwed.

I think restaurants absolutley take advantage of vulnerable tourists. There are a million examples on this board through the years.

Try and let it go. happy New Year!!!!

For anyone who is interested, here is a follow-up to my post above which mentions that the fish you ate was likely to be farmed, not from the Venetian lagoon. I realize, James, that this will make little difference to you now but perhaps it is instructive as it talks about the high price of fish in Venice. There is also some great information on eating in that city and the article was written by one of the great journalists and gourmands of our time, R.W. Apple, who passed away recently:


http://www.istrianet.org/istria/news...0303venice.htm

Look at it a a blessing in in disguise, if only to others reading this thread!

Right. One thing it proves is that you have to be caref ul in Venice when choosing a restaurant and when ordering. Same holds true anywhere, but even more so in that city. I thought the article I linked above was fascinating and informative.

You assumed the restaurant would be reasonable. The restaurant assumed you were a gullible tourist and would not ask or complain.

How many times have I told my kids, &quot;never assume&quot;! That's why we ask the price of 'specials' when it is not mentioned.

Be 'tacky' (politely) when you are not sure. It is your <i>right to know</i>. Better 'tacky' than sorry.

Chalk up your experience to the learning process. ((*))

&quot;The restaurant assumed you were a gullible tourist&quot;

Sorry but I disagree with Jed: the restaurant assumed you KNEW what you were doing when you ordered.

But perhaps Jed has eaten in this restaurant and knows it first-hand

I don't see this as any different than a restaurant in Maine listing lobster as &quot;market price&quot; on the menu.

You may consider it safe to assume you'll be getting a 1 pound lobster at the same price you saw in the local fish market, or $5.99/lb. But that's not a safe bet.

I agree with the others - chalk it up to experience, and we thank you for the reminder to the rest of us.

No, Dukey, I don't think I ate there.

Who assumed and who KNEW will forever be one of those mysteries of life.

Have a nice day. ((*))

&gt;...lobster at the same price you saw in the local fish market, or $5.99/lb.&lt;

Go ahead, make me feel bad.

$12.99/lb is considered a sale price down here in GA.

((I))

I don't see this as any different than a restaurant in Atlanta listing seasonal fruit platter as &quot;market price&quot; on the menu.

You may consider it safe to assume you'll be getting 1 pound of fresh Georgia peaches for the $3.00/lb you saw at the local supermarket. But that's not a safe bet.

I agree with the others - chalk it up to experience, and we thank you for the reminder to the rest of us.

Restaurants are not in business to fleece or cheat customers. Restaurants assume that the customer knows what he is ordering. The menu and its prices and details provide a kind of contract. European restaurants offer customers opportunities to minimize their bill. You pay for what you eat/have served. Devour all the bread sticks on the table and later you will note a charge for each one! A second cup of coffee, another charge. USA restaurants include all these costs in the base price of the meal. Don't hesitate to ask questions!

I agree and would further suggest that everyone learn the &quot;metric system&quot;.
M

&gt;&gt;Restaurants are not in business to fleece or cheat customers&lt;&lt;

I'll agree if you add &quot;most&quot; to the beginning of that sentence. It's nonsense to say that all restaurants -- especially in touristy spots like Venice -- are upstanding establishments.

James, perhaps you care to share the name of the restaurant with us. I am truly sorry for your bad experience. I don't believe that they were necessarily trying to cheat you; as I said above, for two pastas, two branzino and a bottle of wine, the price you paid (125 Euro) would not be considered high for Venice. Any time you order a dish based on market price, you leave yourself open to ambiguity, as in the examples above of lobster and fruits.

I also do not think that a &quot;fancy&quot; place would necessarily be better..some of the best (and most expensive) places to eat in Venice are rather unassuming. (Alle Testiere, etc). And fresh fish is very costly in Venice, and in many other Italian cities (and in most other places as well); check out the prices given in the article I posted and read there the Rialto market prices for fish a few years ago. The supply of wild fish is dwindling and the prices we are seeing, and the preponderance of farmed fish, is just the beginning!

Again, I am sorry that the meal left a bad taste in your mouth (not trying to be funny here...); at least you learned something, right?