Car or Train: A Survey
 

Folks:<BR><BR>These thoughts arose from a friendly Fodors debate over using a private car or public transportation in Switzerland. One poster suggested that a traveler’s preference may be based on lifestyle rather than real need. While I do not agree with that poster’s lack of tact, I do agree that this choice is one of philosophy. I suspect that many Americans’ perceived need for a car is culturally-induced.<BR><BR>Although I was born an American, I was not born in the USA; my family didn’t move to the US until I was 14 years old. I have been (cursed with/blessed with) experiencing American life as an outsider ever since. One of the things that continues to bug me about my compatriots is their addiction to private vehicles. I consider these beasts to be necessary evils, but most Americans I know cannot consider a life without them. At several points in my life, I used buses or a bicycle as my primary means of transportation to work, to school, and doing errands. I would happily chuck the ugly, angry things forever, along with the insurance, the gas costs & fumes, the flat tires, etc. In fact, the quality of public transportation is one of the major considerations for my second retirement planning. The management of my city is now planning a series of linked bike paths so citizens can ride from one end to the other -- a plan I enthusiastically approve and hope to use until I am too old to pedal.<BR><BR>So how about a poll, co-Fodorites? Americans: Would you ever abandon your private vehicles here in the US? Do you think that convenience and excpectation influences your decision to drive in Europe? Non-Americans: Are you growing dependant on your private cars? Is that a curse or a blessing? Does that influence your vacation planning?<BR><BR>Hope to hear some interesting thoughts.<BR><BR>s

I rent a car when I think it is to my advantage to do so. In Switzerland, I do not need one for the days I am planning to visit the Faulhorn or the Jungfraujoch, for obvious reasons.<BR><BR>I do not need a car in major cities either. I am yet to rent one in London, Paris, Vienna, or in Munich other than to visit someplace outside of Munich. We had one last year in Salzburg, but the previous year we did not. No real need for it, except it made getting to Schloss Heilbrunn much easier.<BR>On the other hand, I think it was a great mobilizer for seeing the Grossglockner.<BR><BR><BR>

Wow, s, I think you are so right! and thank you for saying all that in such an articulate and well thought out fashion. Americans are obsessed with cars. Look at how fat we are because we hate to walk and how we are willing to sacrifice our independence (middle east)for the sake of cheap gas.

Interesting thought. When I lived and worked in San Francisco I nearly never drove my car. It was more of an inconvenience (parking) than anything and I only used it when I left the City. For the past couple of dozen years I could not have managed without a car. Silicon Valley, for all of its advanced technology, is not public transit friendly. When I made my poor daughters take public transit to high school (about a 17 mile trip) it took them over an hour and a half and 3 different bus connections.<BR><BR>On all my trips to Europe I have only rented a car on one trip, exploring the Loire Valley. I can imagine renting a car again, but so far, I’ve loved train travel in Europe.<BR>

A car a necessary evil? More like the ultimate luxury, the freedom to choose to go wherever, whenever. And the ability to move goods from any part of our continent to any other.<BR><BR>What almost all the rest of the world envies.<BR>

No Kelsey, I don´t think the rest of the world envies US Americans´cars. Why would we? And it would be great if also there public transportation would function outside NYC.<BR><BR>But back to the original post. I am non-American, and I am not growing too attached to my car. Neither am I dependent on it, because public transportation works fine enough. But it is nice to have it if I know I will have to carry something heavy, or if I want to travel small, idyllic roads that efficient long distance public transportation does not use. By the way, I still remember when I got my first car: I gained 10 kilos during just one year. Then I abandoned it´s daily use and switched back to public. And walked the stretches under 5 kilometres. The result: I lost all the extra in less than six months without doing anything else.<BR><BR>For holidays I sometimes hire a car for some days to do some scenic route and visit tiny villages. Never in big cities, and never if I have to cover a long distance swiftly. Much nicer to relax in a train and not worry about traffic.

I think most Americans a car dependent because they are not public transportation options. If I wanted to take the bus to work, I would have to walk around one mile to the nearest stop (yes, I live in a city) then take the bus to the transfer station, then take another bus to work. It's just easier to take my car. If car taxes or fuel prices were at European levels, I might move to an area closer to work (not that easy) or have found a place to live on the bus route that goes by the office.<BR><BR>Maybe it's because of the suburb design of the USA. Single family homes on a bit of land. Office Parks 10+ miles away. Wal-Mart, Home Depot, Grocery store in a strip mall somewhere in-between home and work. While in Europe, cities are cities and the country is county. People live in highrise (I consider anything over 3-stories a highrise) buildings near a green grocer, drug store, bakery, and transit stop.<BR><BR>In the U.S., unless you are vacationing in Manhattan, a car allows you to visit more areas. Combine Las Vegas with the Grand Canyon for example. In Europe, THERE ARE TRAINS. Unless you live in the Boston to D.C. zone of Amtrack, train service is spotty.

Some of the American car-craving can be attributed to time - most Americans get two weeks vacation, so a trip to Europe means cramming as much into that time as possible. Yes, a train from London to York is efficient BUT you can't stop and see stuff along the way - cramming as much sight seeing into a day as possible. I get a lot of vacation time, so a trip from Paris to Lyon on the train is a no-brainer - all the places inbetween I'll catch on another trip. If I were never coming back to France, or had only two weeks to see it, I'd probably want a car.<BR><BR>Secondly, deciphering public transportation in a language one doesn't speak can be daunting; and if it is a MAN organizing the transportation...well, we know how they are about asking for help. Better to drive around and around in a circle, hoping a street sign will suddenly appear, than ask a conductor if one's station is coming up.<BR><BR>Thirdly, habit. Okay, every American reading this, raise your hand if you ever spent childhood time in the wayback of the station wagon on the way to the annual two-week vacation at the a)beach b)lake c)Gram's farm. Dad loaded up the car the night before so "we can get an early start" (I HATE THAT PHRASE). Mom packed sandwiches; cookies; crackers; and thermoses with coffee, juice, milk. No vacation was complete without that road trip, so how can we as adults conceive of a trip that doesn't include looking for GAS-FOOD-LODGING signs and playing the license plate game?<BR><BR>

Kelsey, the rest of the world chokes on the emissions and fries under the depleted ozone layer.<BR><BR>Trains are nice because you can walk around, check out the scenery, and don't have to get worried about getting lost when you get there. Downside: if a place looks interesting from the train, you can't change your itinerary and go there as easily.<BR><BR>Cars are nice when a train does not go there. Lots of good places in Europe are like this. They are not on rick Steve's list.

Hi<BR>Why do you have the supposition about Americans and our cars? Not everyone lives in cities or in very urban areas. Having grown up in NYC and lived in Boston for many years I would not be without a car. I live in a newly suburbanized area and because of my job and lifestyle cannot fathom not having a need for a car. As for Europe, we always rent a car, but when we get to a city we park and use public transportation. The freedom of the car provides a mobility to very small towns and out of the way places that are difficult to reach on public transportation. So before we get on our damning those who drive, lok at all the variables instead of the stock answers that are expected.<BR>alan

I was born and raised in the Los Angeles area and consider all the cars I have had in my life a complete necessity. I love freedom of movement and convenience and my cars allow that. I love to jump in my car and hit the road at my own speed and leisure with my own destination. <BR>I don't want to be tied down to public transportation and go where everyone else does in a big group and on a time schedule. It may be fun in Europe to go on trains, but on a regular basis, give me my car!

Me, too!! Give me a car or a truck and my dogs and my sons and I go where and when we want! To the beach, to the mountains or wherever the mood strikes us! I could NEVER want be tied down to public transportation, give me the free wheeling life style. <BR>And I walk when I get TO my destination not GETTING to my destination so I am not fat.

Going wherever and whenever? Sounds good as long as you can continue to drive and the gas from the Middle East continues to be available by endless involvement in Middle East affairs.<BR><BR>Why is publich transportation not an option? Perhaps because of predominant anti public transportation sentiments in many communities continue to vote down public transit projects. The same people curse at older drivers and hope they would get off the street. They never ask why they have to drive in their old age in the first place. Will it take until they themselves get to old age when they can walk but no longer able to drive and wonder why the public transportation they voted down are not available for them to use when they need to go wherever they want and not having to rely on someone else to give them a ride?<BR><BR>I see as people in our neighborhood getting older and no longer able to drive themselves. Perhaps they too had the same idealistic view when they moved in -- I would live no other way, I like to be able to drive wherever and whenever I want. Now they are prisoners of their ideals, no public transportion anywhere to get them to places they want to go on their own...

It is fine to have an option for those who don't or can't drive, but why blame those of us who enjoy driving? As you probably know, Los Angeles doesn't have good public transportation and that is a shame. I said I would never not want to drive, but if there comes a time when I can't drive, I would have to rely on public transportation or relatives, and that would be a shame of course. I would probably have to move into a place more accessible to my needs. But that is not a good argument in my opinion.

Just rent a bike in Europe and peddle your butt up hills and down hills. Gotta be a great way to lose weight and see at least 20 miles of Switzerland.<BR><BR>We always rent a car. This avoids sitting next to some stupid kid with a radio to his ear sneezing on you and fighting the crowds at the train stations. Plus, you can see more of Europe and go where you want to go and stop when you want to stop. Really pretty simple.<BR><BR>If you are against cars, great. Be against cars and call the US Congress. Most of the idiots in Congress drive the cars they say they are against. Just check it out sometime.<BR><BR>Meanwhile: What does all this have to do about getting a good hotel in Paris or finding a neat place to stay in Venice? <BR><BR>We need a separate site for TREE HUGGERS IN EUROPE. That would be a neat place to go. None of then have good jobs and they all wear jeans and plaid shirts. <BR><BR>Gotta go....get my rental and head to the hills....may even run down a biker.

Many of you pro-car folks are incredibly selfish and irresponsible. How many US soldiers are going to have to die in the middle east to support your addiction?

It would be great to not have to depend on a car for transportation in the U.S.,but most of us absolutely do have to depend on one! Most cities are spread out and have terrible public transportation systems. I can't imagine life without a car. However, when I go to Europe, I panic at the thought of driving - and haven't found it necessary to do so. Granted, I usually stay in large cities, and am absolutely in awe of the public transportation in Paris and London (altho I know that the Londoners complain!) I have great experiences (tho few) on French trains, and one of the things I enjoy about vacationing in Europe is getting away from my "beloved" car.

We in America long ago sold out to the interests of big business (oil, cars) over the needs of the environment and the convenience of good public transportation. As you can see from reading this thread, Americans are still cowboys who value their ersatz "Freedom" more than anything, including the future of their children. It is too late to change that for cultural and political reason, America will remain the land of the huge auto driven mostly with one person until we have destroyed our environment or until the price of gas hits about $10 per gallon. Idiots!

Hello Again Folks,<BR><BR>I want to thank you all for responding to educate and enlighten me (and in some cases to confirm my fears).<BR><BR>Elvira, you reminded me of something I had apparently forgotten -- that adults tend to do what they got used to doing as children. Sometimes our decisions are not grand philosophical statements but rather comfortable habits. I grew up without individual private cars, so I am very comfortable living that way! No big deal, really! <BR><BR>I also agree with soldout and others who suggest that the freedom some folks associate with private cars is a false freedom. I particularly feel "tied down" when I have a car on vacation and have to worry about routes and parking and no wine at lunch and where is the next gas station and did I get enough collision insurance, et al. I really like the freedom of jumping on trains and experiencing the countryside fully.<BR><BR>I've never felt that I've missed a hidden village by using public transportation, but I have seen interesting villages from train windows and gone back to explore them. But then, I usually spend at least four nights in one place, so I have the time and leisure to explore pretty well within a 30-mile radius. And that's the best part -- that's why I go.<BR><BR>And Duke, yes, I am actually going to do just that in Sep when I return to Switzerland. Me, a bike, and the Swiss countryside. Must be heaven.<BR><BR>s

Ted's got it right, we don't have decent public transportation because we don't want decent public transportation. I live in Atlanta, a city that's rapidly becoming unbearable as a result of years and years of stupid growth, driven by developers and narrow-minded individuals who would rather own their own private 1 acre park than invest in shared public space. <BR><BR>I would give up my car in a heartbeat if I could figure out a means to shuttle kids to soccer practice and get groceries by using public transport and/or my bike, but so far I've not been able to. On the other hand, I do use public transport when feasible, and walk to work most days. I've gone for months without a car (borrowing my husband's for grocery shopping) and drive so little that I have to change the oil in my car based on months, not mileage. <BR><BR>Public transportation does work, but communities have to plan for it and pay for it. Everybody benefits from public transportation, not just the individuals using it, and everybody has to pay for it (just like I have to pay for freeways that I use as little as possible, and would not use were there an alternative).

I live in Amsterdam and in terms of transportation, I think this is heaven. When the weather is OK, I bike to work (20 minutes one way). I can walk to the nearest shopping center for groceries, and most other daily items. There is good public transport when it is raining. Parking is a problem downtown, so we either bike or tram to the city center. For long trips, we take the train when our destination is conveniently close to the train station; I have read hundreds of novels on the train. For destinations which are not so easy to reach by public transport, we have our car. Sometimes, we don't use the car for more than a week. <BR>I hate cities where you are basically a handicapped person if you don't have a car. I tried being a tourist without a car in Los Angeles and Atlanta, and didn't enjoy the experience.

I have owned a car in Europe on three different occasions. I have always rented a car when on holiday in Europe. I have always enjoyed the experience of driving in Europe. Now I am sick of it: too much stress for one thing: one too many cases of getting caught in a snarl on an autobahn; one too many 'diversions' when you have entered a strange town with the route to your hotel all worked out and bingo, the signs send you in another direction; one too many near misses. And, as the sole driver, I'm the one who gets to see very little but the white line down the centre of the road as we drive through the French Alps or along the scenic ocean road.<BR><BR>So from now on it's trains, bikes, buses, taxis, camels, whatever, but NO car.<BR><BR>Harzer

I've done most of my European travel by train, but I've also rented cars several times in Europe, and I've found that...<BR><BR>-you can usually get where you're going faster, more comfortably, and often more economically by train. <BR><BR>-trains relieve you of the "work" involved with driving - navigating an unfamiliar car through unfamiliar territory, reading unfamiliar maps with unfamiliar symbols in an unfamiliar language, learning another country's driving rules and habits, getting through traffic jams, and, of course, finding your way again once you've become hopelessly lost somewhere. On the train, I'm really on vacation. I just gaze out the window, sip some coffee, and chat with my companions, without a thought as to how I'll get where I'm going or what time I'll actually get there. <BR><BR>-Cars are great if...<BR>1. you have some physical disability that prevents you from using the stairs usually found in train stations.<BR>2. you like to carry too much luggage or buy lots of stuff while underway.<BR>3. you are an automotive enthusiast who wants to test his/her skills on the Autobahn or who feels separation anxiety if you're not behind the steering wheel at least once every 24 hours.<BR>4. you have a kid in diapers.<BR>5. you don't want to plan your trip at all and wish to flit around with total spontaneity (for me, this sounds more like anarchy than a vacation.)<BR>6. your destination doesn't have a train station (however, most towns without stations are linked to nearby stations with timely bus transport.)<BR><BR>I'll not drive again myself in Europe unless #6 appliesin a serious way.<BR><BR>That said, I can't imagine life in the US without a car. The whole country is built around cars, and public transportation in most places absolutely stinks. At home, I'd rather lose an arm than my wheels. It's no surprise that many Americans' dependency on cars follows them to Europe - good public transport is inunimaginable for most of us.<BR><BR>

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Cars...I've got three of them including a gasp...SUV!!!!<BR><BR>And you can have my cars just about the same time you can have my guns...when you can pry them out of my cold clammy hands.<BR><BR>Until then, I'll drive where I want and when I want. And if gasoline goes up, I'll just pay more. <BR><BR>And BTW, the US woudln't be needing so much imported oil (and BTW most of it does not come from the ME) if all the environmental wackos would utilize a bit of reasoning and stop complaining about 1/10th of 1% of Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico.<BR><BR>Heck they're not going to be happy until your animals have more rights than you do and you're forced to walk everywhere!<BR><BR>Enough already!<BR><BR>US

Sold out, you are longing for a US that will never return, so get over it.<BR><BR>This is not a subject to argue about, some people like to drive for the fun and freedom and some people dont see the fun and freedom of driving. My family and I take long drives on the weekend and stop when and where we want to explore or have a meal.<BR>I can see why it would be nice to have public transportation to and from your place of business, but for pleasure give me a car.<BR>

Uncle Sam, it is people like you that make others hate the US. You are a stupid, selfish, egocentric asshole. Hopefully one day, you will shoot yourself through your stupid brains. (or what is in that spot where other people have brains)

European,<BR><BR>I do not give a d---- if you like me or not. I'm entitled to my opinions and I'll stand behind them. You don't like them, tough!<BR><BR>However, nimrod, care to show me where I am wrong. You may not like my psotions, but you do not disprove them only fail to approve of them. <BR><BR>And I do not need your approval for anything, thank you!<BR><BR>US

Actually, I saw an interesting program on PBS where they talked about the development of the American highway system and how it was influenced by big business, I think the automobile industry. (Or was it the oil industry?) And this in turn influenced the development of the suburbs. The U.S. simply isn't laid out like Europe, except in very dense cities like NYC. <BR><BR>I'd love to go carless but my hometown has horrible public transportation so it's just not a feasible option.<BR><BR>I prefer to travel without a car in England, although I'm finding that many out-of-the-way spots I'd like to visit are impractical by public transportation - once you take the train that may or may not link the two places you are thinking of, then switch to a bus, etc. It's absolutely great if you're traveling between big cities or common destinations!<BR><BR>

Why does anyone bother responding to the angry person who uses "Uncle Sam"? If you all would just ignore him, maybe he would leave.<BR><BR>I have not seen any original travel advice from him, and his political comments to not enhance this forum either.

This is a stupid argument. I can see why some people would want to drive cars with high gas mileage to help the environment. But most of us need and want our "beloved" cars, so what?

Correction on that last sentence in earlier post, meant "do" not enhance...<BR><BR>All he contributes to is the ruining of a good thread.

Why?<BR><BR>1. Suggest you do a search for some of my travel comments.<BR><BR>2. I find it interesting that you and those like you are allowed to have opinions on everything from why America is responsible for all the world's ills to why if you don't ride a bike you are a selfish idiot.<BR><BR>3. Suggest you scold European, he is the one that called me an a$$hole.<BR><BR>4. Is your concern that I do not believe or feel the same way you do...then get over it.<BR><BR>US<BR><BR>PS I'm not angry, you've not seen me angry!

I agree with Uncle Sam!! Lets kill all the animals, destroy the wilderness and pave over everything so we can run around shooting each other from our forstinking giant SUVs. (Except for Nan, of course, you will be out cruisin' in her SUV looking for a Burger King!

To S:<BR>Yes it is culturally-induced. To many it is an entitlement as an American and it is not a negotiable point.<BR><BR>To those who say they wish they could go carless, but can't because of poor public transport and city layout, how have you been voting on land use and public transportation issues? Who are you voting at elections? Those who promise better road now or public transportation to benefit years from now?<BR><BR>I have lived in one place long enough to go thru several city planning cycles. The sequence goes this way:<BR><BR>1. I have to drive because the public transportation is bad and places I need to go are so far apart (because so and so in the past decided to layout the city this way, it is not my fault..)<BR><BR>2. Therefore I vote for more road and not more public transport. Public transports are waste of money and it would not benefit me now. Put the big malls and businesses in open space out of congested suburb and we will be fine.<BR><BR>3. 10 years passes. The roads funded previously are even more congested, road widened but the pace of development has overwhelmed the road system.<BR><BR>4. Go back to 1, continue to complain about lack of good public transport system. So and so (who?) in the past decided to put places I need to go so far apart. Vote for more road. <BR><BR>Meanwhile, light rail system passed despite major oppositions from car centric folks as waste of money has been operating over ten years now, it ran on time then, it still runs on time now.

As far as air pollution goes, I've always wondered which one is actually worst. A large SUV with a computer and all those anti-pollution gizmos or those small 2-stroke European motorcycles/scooters that run on a gas/oil mixture and spew that blue cloud behind them? If they both covered the same commuting distance in a year, who is the worst air polluter?

I will be cruising but not for Burger King, I am a vegetarian!<BR>We have one small car, one mid sized and one truck. We are a mobile family and we would have it no other way. Public transportation is not for us.

The reason for urban sprawl in the US is cheap land and cheap fuel. The reason this post is ugly is because people are pig-headed and do not listen to others' points of view. How many of you car people have tried a high-speed train?

A high speed train, where? In the US? In Europe?<BR>I, for one, have taken a train across the country (USA) and I have taken trains across Italy and France.

s, I'd love to post on this thread, but the censor at Fodor's has been running amok today, and your thread will probably be shot by firing squad by dawn.