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can't find brugges
I have checked two travel books, an atlas and via michelin, can't find this town. does it have another name, what part of France is it in?A
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It's in Belgium and in French, one of Belgium's two languages, is called Bruges.
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Rick Steve features Brugge. I constantly spell it wrong (but am a horrible speller).
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B-R-U-G-G-E
It is in Belgium. Time for more research |
"<i>I have checked two travel books, an atlas and via michelin, can't find this town. . . . what part of France is it in?</i>"
Phew - I'm relieved to hear you aren't finding Brugge in your books about France. Back to the drawing board. |
<"or brussels">
Brugge and Brussels are two different cities. Brugge and Bruges are the same place since as mentioned, both Flemish and French are the languages of Belgium. Since Brugge is in the Flemish part of Belgium and Brugge is how the locals spell it, I would say that is the preferable spelling although both are correct. |
Have you ever started typing and didn't stop to think? Thanks basingstoke. I meant to type brugges.
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In English, the French spelling of Bruges is generally used.
Do not start trying to refer to all of the cities in Europe by the names used in the native language, or you are going to already find yourself in difficulty when you start going to Wien, Kobenhavn, or Firenze, to name just some of the easy ones. |
but no matter what spelling one uses -- it ain't in France . . . .
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I understand that Kerouac. In most cases the English version of city names differs from that of the locals. As you know, the case of Brugge is different in that 2 different names are used by the people of the country. In the US both are used. Although Bruges may be more common among English speakers, it is not necessarily preferred. Differences in the name Brugge/Bruges are not only cultural but political and thus I choose to respect the city's location in Flanders and respect the version of city's region.
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Hi A,
It is either Brugge or Bruges, but it ain't Brugges. It is in Belgium. It is worth a visit. ((I)) |
In UK English the town's name is Bruges (and that's the name that British guidebooks use). I'd never heard an English speaker refer to it as Brugge until I visited this forum. I assume, therefore, that Brugge is an accepted name for the city in the US but not in the UK.
Incidentally, I don't say Ostende (or Oostende), Antwerpen (or Anvers) or Bruxelles (or Brussel) either when I'm speaking English! |
ira wrote: "It is either Brugge or Bruges, but it ain't Brugges."
Ant it ain't Brugge when you are writing in English. I wondered why so many posters here called it Brugge. MomDDTravel has indicated why: Rick Steves calls it Brugge. |
Kerouac
I completely disagree with your comment about not trying to pronounce the name of places ( or anything else for that matter) in the local language. It is a simple display of courtesy and respect to pronounce place names properly. The fact that is easier to do otherwise should not be the deciding factor. A good portion of the arrogance that is ascribed to tourists (and some tourist groups more than others) comes from the failure to do even this basic amount of research and learning. |
Kerouac didn't say not to PRONOUNCE the name. He was talking about referring to it on a map, if the map is in English. There is no arrogance in that--just good advice.
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If you speak the local language, please pronounce the place names in the local language. Is that clear?
If you try to mix languages, you age going to confuse everybody. When a Belgian speaks English to you, he or she will most certainly not pronouce the city names as the locals do, but as the English do. Similarly, if an English person is speaking French to a French person, he or she will refer to <i>Londres</i> and <i>la Tamise</i> and not to <i>London</i> or <i>the Thames</i>. |
Interesting semantic discussion. I wonder how many people know how to pronouce 'gouda' as the Dutch do. But the Dutch don't consider it an insult to hear it pronounced as per English phonetic rules.
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kerouac wrote: "if an English person is speaking French to a French person, he or she will refer to Londres and la Tamise and not to London or the Thames."
I'm glad that I'm not an English person, or I would be guilty of letting the side down. I do say Londres when I speak French, but I had quite forgotten that the French use la Tamise (I did recognise it as something I had seen or heard before). But perhaps I'm okay: I cannot remember ever having mentioned the Thames in France. I have mentioned la Liffey. I have a friend from Rennes who speaks excellent English. When using English, he pronounces Rennes with the final "s" sounded. It always jars with me a little. |
As the town is in the Flemish speaking part of Belgium, I presume using Brugge is akin to using Roma or Firenze when talking about Rome or Florence in Italy.
Fodorites generally consider this "a bad thing" and pretensious. The exception appears to be when the rest of the English speaking world uses "Pearl HarboUr" when this is taken as an inability to spell or a deliberate insult :-) For the record, I use the local names only when giving directions. This stems from hearing visitors arriving at Pisa airport railway station looking in vain for "Florence" unaware that they needed trains for Firenze. Belgium being bilingual, I presume that trains/roads would be marked with both Bruges and Brugge. |
Belgium is one place where it really helps to know both the local names for a town.
I recall driving in Belgium years ago trying to get to Leuven. I got terribly lost and highway signs kept directing me to some town called Louvain. |
"Belgium being bilingual, I presume that trains/roads would be marked with both Bruges and Brugge."
In the French speaking part, cities are named in their French-spelling, in the Dutch/Flamish speaking part, cities are named in their Dutch-spelling. And since 'both sides of the language border' are very proud of their own language, most cities are only marked according to the language spoken there. Only cities where there is a possibility for confusion; like Mons/Bergen, Tournai/Doornik, both names are used. Another exception is Brussel/Bruxelles. Since this city is officially bi-langual (in-offically most people speak Frecnh). Since Brugge is in the Flemish/Dutch speaking part, it is best to refer to it with it's Dutch-name. |
In Belgian Flanders, except for the autoroute (autosnelweg), all of the signs indicating the direction of the nearby city of Lille are marked Rijsel.
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<<Belgium being bilingual, I presume that trains/roads would be marked with both Bruges and Brugge>>
Not necessarily. In Flanders (or Vlaanderen for those who wish to be precise), the road signs are only in Flemish (Vlaams), while in Wallonia (Wallonie), the signs are only in French (français). In the Brussels/Brussel/Bruxelles area, the signs are bilingual. For example, driving out of Brussels to Mons, the signs will point to Mons/Bergen. While passing through Flanders, the signs change to Bergen, and then back to Mons when in Wallonia. I can't vouch for this, but I do seem to recall than signs for Lille, France read Rijsel in Flanders. I first learned this many years ago when driving from Germany to Antwerp via Liège. While in Germany (Deutschland), the signs pointed to Lüttich, then entering Belgium/Belgie/Belgique they changed to Luik, then finally to Liège. Meanwhile, the signs for Antwerpen changed to Anvers, and I almost missed my turn. Moral of the story--if there is an accepted English version of a place-name, use it when speaking or writing in English. When speaking another language, use the accepted term in that language. The exception might be Belgium, where linguistic divisions are so intense, that an English speaker might well be advised to use the Flemish or French version as appropriate. |
" And since 'both sides of the language border' are very proud of their own language, most cities are only marked according to the language spoken there."
Thank you, that is quite interesting and shows how wrong I can be when I make assumptions. |
Maybe this is testament to how Belgium has managed to remain slightly less trampled by tourists ... we can't find it!
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tomassocroccante wrote: "Maybe this is testament to how Belgium has managed to remain slightly less trampled by tourists ... we can't find it!"
Apart from Bruges! I quite liked a number of other places in Belgium that, I think, have fewer tourists than they might merit: Ghent, Antwerp, Louvain, Ypres. |
Even if you don't speak the local language I think you should make the effort to pronounce place names as they are known locally. This is not hard to do. I fail to see how someone of average intelligence can't learn and remember, with about 5 seconds of effort, that Roma is Rome. The Firenze/Florence train idenitification example is a great one. If people are advised to not "bother" with "referring" to places using their local names, they are being advised to create problems for themselves.
Would you refer to a French man as "Jack" instead of "Jacques", or "Alan instead of "Alain" simply because you didn't want to confuse those hearing you? That would be insulting and presumes that everyone should just accept that unilingual English (or other language) speakers can't be bothered to try and respect the cultures of others. I think the evidence is clear that people genuinely appreciate attempts at speaking their language, however butchered the result might be. Sure, they will almost always respond in English if they can, but that is no reason to abandon the attempt. Frankly, I am embarassed that I have about 10% of the language skills of the average European - and I am passable in basic French and plodding in German. I consider it an honour that people who are not native English speakers have made the effort to learn my language (and probably others) and I am going to try and let them know that in the ways I am able. The attitude that "They all speak English anyway" or "They know what I mean" is very sad. |
Aramis, you're completely missing the point. No one here is suggesting that when conversing with the locals IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE you wouldn't use the local pronunciation. If I'm speaking French, I will say 'paree' not Paris. The point is that you don't 'mix' languages. If you are speaking english, use the english pronunciation. Using the pronunciation or name of the language you're conversing in is standard practice and avoids both confusion and pretension.
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There is a difference between doing your best to pronounce local place names that do not have a foreign equivalent and the major cities of the world that have gained enough prominence to have an adapted name in other languages. Rather than an insult, I see it as a legitimate claim to fame, dating back usually 500 years or more.
It makes a lot more sense than trying to be a total purist and pronouncing every name as the locals do. If so, better get started on the local names of Bangkok, Cairo and Shanghai. Later, if you are American, let's fix the pronunciation of Des Moines, Détroit, Coeur d'Alène, Saint Louis, Amarillo, Montpelier and a few others to get them back the way they were meant to be. |
The film I quote on these pages most is David Lean's "Summertime" , starring Katherine Hepburn and Rosanno Brazzi (written by Arthur Laurents)
When jane Hudson meets fellow Americans, the McIlhennys, onboard a Vaporetto in Venice, Mrs. McIlhenny says that from Venice they will go to Florence, or "Firenzay, that's the name the Italians have given it. Then Rome - Roma, Naples - Napoli, then home!" Reminds me of the great monologue by Dorothy Draper, in which she speaks as an American tourist visiting an Italian church with her friends. At one point a little urchin has approached them, and she says something like, "oh, she's so young and yet she speaks Italian so beautifully!" |
<<Would you refer to a French man as "Jack" instead of "Jacques", or "Alan instead of "Alain" simply because you didn't want to confuse those hearing you? That would be insulting and presumes that everyone should just accept that unilingual English (or other language) speakers can't be bothered to try and respect the cultures of others.>>
Well, it appears that the coach of the Pittsburgh Penguins, Michel Therrien, is now being referred to as Michael, because too many Americans regard Michel as a woman's name! |
Ditto "Patrice" (though the French also use Patrick).
And we've feminized Andrea, too, the Italian Andrew. |
In terms of other first names, as long as the spelling is the same (or almost the same), I have never seen English speakers make an effort to pronounce the name as the French do, nor would I expect them to.
Witness how they say -- Charles de Gaulle Georges Pompidou Catherine Deneuve Gérard Depardieu Audrey Tautou |
Then there is the apocryphal story of the BBC announcer who pronounced Lenny's name as
"Lay-o-nard Bairn-shtein" |
Must have been a French BBC announcer!
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We all get trapped. I have a nice big geographical dictionary, (Websters) that gives se-ViL as the English pronunciation, and sa-BE-ya as Spanish.
I often want a good gazeteer for business and surnames. Then there are the traps: Robert Henri, the American painter, was born Robert Henry Cozad (his family founded Cozad Nebraska). Possibly due to a dark family scandal, he dropped his last name. But was the change of "y" to "i" meant to make this American impressionist seem more ... French? Either way, I pronounce his name HENRY. |
P says,
>> "It is either Brugge or Bruges, but it ain't Brugges." Ant it ain't Brugge when you are writing in English. < "Bruges" is an English word? Do I have to call Livorno "Leghorn"? If I go to Cairo, Egypt, do I have to pronounce it as in Cairo, IL? I recognize that there are many place names that have been Anglicized, Americanized, Canadianated and Strinified, but when did Bruges become the official English name, and who so promulgated it? .................................. I side with Ar, who says, >I completely disagree with your comment about not trying to pronounce the name of places ( or anything else for that matter) in the local language.< Tourist: We just got back from Italy. Friend: Oh, did you visit Roma, Firenze and Venezia? Tourist: No. We only had time for Rome, Florence and Venice. On that occasion, I was the friend ................................. An asks, > I wonder how many people know how to pronouce 'gouda' as the Dutch do. I do. I also know how to pronounce "Vincent Van Gogh" and "broogies". ................................ Hi T, >When jane Hudson meets fellow Americans, the McIlhennys, onboard a Vaporetto ....< Down here, we have a few folks who have visited the Dee Orsaaay museum in Paris, Fray ants. ................................. L asks, >Would you refer to a French man as "Jack" instead of "Jacques",..< Some years ago a French pianist yclept Cassadesus reached some popularity in the US. About a year after I learned that it was pronounced Casa dei sue, he became a US citizen and changed it to Cassa dee sus. I never forgave him for that. ((I)) |
The OP got more info. than he/she bargained for.
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Is the objective here to be understood by our peers or to show our infinite knowledge about foreign names and how they are pronounced?
I must admit that some of my French friends have tried in the past to tell me about American cities of which I had never heard. First time, second time, third time... They would finally say it with the French pronunciation and I understood immediately what city they were talking about. At least with the phonetic pronunciation in the language of your choice, you can immediately spell what someone is saying to you and figure out what it is. If somebody says Reems instead of Rams, I know it is Reims. If they say Marseels instead of Marsayl, I can also figure it out. And then there is the Cannes/Caen dilemma. No solution for that one unless they spell it out or tell you what region it is in. |
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