Sarge, I know you have a history being assaulted, and I wouldn't blame you for being more concerned with self defense than many people.

But figuring that most pickpocket events also happen in fairly crowded places, plus the stated "quick and unseen" aspect, I also doubt that spray would be effective. Now if you were mugged on a quiet street, that's different.

I'm sure you wouldn't use it on a bus or in a crowd, so your potential need will be limited.

I was "picked" once, on a crowded NYC street at 1:00 in the afternoon, knocked down in the act and couldn't have defended myself if I'd been a tai chi master, I imagine. Not having 360 degree vision, its one crime where prevention is our best defense.

thx tomas.

I wonder what country logos999 lives in that he/she considers pepper spray "excessive violence" and "a dangerous weapon". That's about the funniest thing I've heard in ages! :)

In a peaceful place, not that far from italy, where pepper spray is illegal to own. If they find it, you're in trouble :-).
(There is a milder type that is sold to protect against dogs).
btw. Why don't you buy a gun and shoot them? Gas guns are legal to own... :D :D

I wonder what country sarge56 lives in that he considers using gratuitous use of excessive violence acceptable? Presumably one of those transatlantic hellholes where mass murder like this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7032971.stm) is a daily occurrence.

If you live in a country like that, keep your stupid toys at home - or better yet just stay at home. In the civilsed world, we don't need themj, and don't need you.

If all else fails, you can always use a few squirts to give your penne arrabiata some extra kick.

Just a thought...

flanneruk --

the saddest thing is I live one state over from Wisconsin and I didn't even hear about this on my local news station... The gun violence here is just out of control.

>>>I wonder what country logos999 lives in that he/she considers pepper spray "excessive violence" and "a dangerous weapon". That's about the funniest thing I've heard in ages! <<<

Well, hear more funny things: I, too, live in a country where pepper sprays are illegal, and you would be charged for excessive violence.

sarge <<<pepper spray "excessive violence" and "a dangerous weapon". That's about the funniest thing I've heard in ages!>>>

I think your title and thread was the funniest thing ive heard in ages.

quite alarming that you would want to arm yourself with pepper spray on holidays.

Can everyone please just lighten up. Common sense is the only defense against the unlikely event of getting robbed.
There must be the same likelihood of getting run over by a car as getting pickpocketed.
Please leave your paranoia at home.

I too live in a country where pepper spray is illegal and you would be charged with excessive violence. Bet you are now ROFL at all these silly European states that don't allow such things as pepper spray for self defence.

But seriously - you are on holiday, why take such a violent thing with you? As others have said you will not get the chance to use it against a pickpocket - they are far too good for you to even notice they have picked your pocket let alone have time to fish out your papper spray and use on them. Take sensible precautions and enjoy your holiday, but leave the pepper spray at home. Please.

Another person from a silly country where this weapon is illegal.

It IS a weapon and to gleefully 'blast' a pickpocket is excessive use of force, even in countries where carrying one is legal.

In EVERY European country using pepper spray against a potential or real pickpocket will be excessive violence.

You may use pepper spray only in situations when violent behavior has already occurred or is clearly expected (e.g. criminals with weapons in their hands).

BTW, besides the trouble from the police, I don't consider it advisable to counterattack an aggressor. His reactions may cause much greater losses than a wallet.

Of course, flanner. Mass murder is a "daily occurrence" in the US.

I have to say, you have made some of the most ill-informed comments about the US that I've ever seen. And that's saying something.

Of course, flanner has exaggerated; but given the statistical numbers, there IS a huge difference in violence between the USA and Europe. Violence is much more common in the US, and for a European tourist, the USA is much more dangerous than Europe for an American tourist.

I can hardly imagine a situation when I need pepper spray in Europe, especially when biking.

And the pickpocket thing:
Everyone here on this forum is crazy about pickpocketing in Europe. I have been living in Europe for half a century and travelled a lot of European cities including Rome (where I used to work), Barcelona and Paris and have never been pickpocketed and, furthermore, never have heard of anyone else being pickpocketed.

I almost suspect that the pickpocket rumors are another propaganda of the Bush administration in order to prevent Americans from travelling to Europe.

Sarge56, in every Italian town you will be much safer than in every American city. Leave your pepper spray at home.

"How are you going to know who is a 'potential' pickpocket? " Maybe anyone that is dressed like a gypsy, someone carrying a baby that will be tossed to you, or kids waving newspapers? If you see anyone that remotely resembles any of these spray first and ask questions later.
:)

The flaw in sarge56's plan is that you don't know you are being pickpocketed when it happens! So how are you going to pepper spray the thief? The series of events she is envisioning simply does not make any sense.

Now if you are taking about a physical attack then that is a different scenario entirely.

<<< His reactions may cause much greater losses than a wallet. >>>

Or that of his mates who will also be nearby

<<< I wonder what country logos999 lives in that he/she considers pepper spray "excessive violence" and "a dangerous weapon". >>>

It's called the civilised world

traveller1959

I agree that there is probably more violent crime in the US. But this thread is discussing pickpocketing and the Italian cities I've been to certainly have the corner on that market. Yes it does occur in the US but not to the levels I've experienced in Italian cities.

"...another propaganda of the Bush administration in order to prevent Americans from travelling to Europe." I think this was the post that finally drove this thread from run-of-the-mill Fodorite xeophobic hatred to wild, raving absurdity.

Sarge56, while traveling in countries other than my own and therefore unfamiliar to me, I have sometimes been in situations in which I felt physically unsafe. In those situations, I would have appreciated the safety of having police nearby, or traveling with a group, or, failing either of those, having something like pepper spray to use in an emergency.

I don't know you personally. If you envision your upcoming vacation as a butt-kickin' rampage through the Italian countryside, in which you randomly ambush unsuspecting locals before speeding off into the night on your Schwinn, cackling hysterically and signing raucous songs of war, then shame on you, you are a bad person, and you should stay home.

On the other hand, if your goal is to enjoy exploring a beautiful country in which you may not know your way around so perfectly, and you want to feel a little safer and more free to explore without worrying, then I think your question is a perfectly reasonable one. I agree that you'll probably never see a pickpocket coming, so you'll avoid them better by using a moneybelt, keeping a hand on your wallet in crowded places, etc. But pickpockets aren't the only bad people in the world. If you're maybe not a 25-year-old, 6'5", 200-pound man with biceps like tree trunks and five of your mates behind you for backup, and feeling safer will help you to enjoy your vacation, then more power to you.

It may or may not affect the discussion, but although the sobriquet "sarge" will suggest to some that the OP is a man, she is in fact a woman.