Bring a 1-Yr Old to Rome?
 

My husband and I are planning a two week vacation to Rome, Pompeii and Florence in Sept. or Oct. 2000. We would like to bring our daughter (who will be 18 months old in Sept.)with us but have heard that it can be very difficult to travel with a toddler. We don't have the following options, including -getting a baby sitter for her for two weeks, -bringing our nanny along on the trip, or cutting the vacation to one week. She's a very mild-mannered little girl and is overall good natured. BUT, she will still be nearly two years old in Sept. Any input is much appreciated, especially direct experiences from parents that have roamed Rome with a toddler. Tips, pointers, etc. Thank you!!

Type in some key words and do a search here, Kris. You will find more info and opinions than you can handle about traveling with little ones, anywhere and everywhere.

Is there a special reason you want to bring your baby along? She will have absolutely no idea that she is in Italy, to appreciate it or remember it. If you have a nanny, why not leave the child with the nanny for the two weeks? It can be done. But why? I'm not anti-kid, baby, child. But, kids at that age, traveling can be a hassle. It's crowded, and just difficult to manuever around. Plus, they have no interest in being there. My suggestion is to get someone that you trust with your life to look after your daughter, and go and have a nice, relaxing vacation. You deserve it.

When I was little, my family often travelled. We went by car, and it required getting up at 4 a.m. My sister and me never had any problem getting up, we just continued sleeping in the car. Moreover we never had any reservations, we just stopped for the night at a place we liked. (But we did have the option of only a daytrip if we didn't find a place, or sleeping in the car-which we never actually did.) We went to many countries in Europe this way and never ever had a problem. It is true that I don't remember many things from when I was 4 or 5 years old, but I remember some, like how much we liked collecting shells at an Italian beach etc. Plus we have some fabulous photos to refresh our memory. Yes, sometimes we made our parents tired by our constant activity (we never went tired), but it is more or less the same if you stay at home. It is true however that we always had our own car, and didn't have to fly. We have friends who like to travel, and now they have a little girl less than a year old. They went mountain climbing (just the mild type) with her when she was only a couple of months old, and they all loved it! Fresh air, birds singing etc. They carried the baby on their backs, father for a while, then the mother... <BR>So overall I think you will have a better experience as a family. I also think that the fact that I am very good in learning languages might have something to do with the fact that I was exposed to many when I was little. And of course I (still) love to travel!

I have a 20 month old girl and went to France in September and am heading to Spain for two weeks this summer. My theory is, the more places you take them, the more places you can take them. My girl was great, but then, just like at home, we did not expect miracles. Just make sure you schedule in a nap (even if it is in the stroller while touring museums... we have great pictures of her fast asleep in her stroller in front of the Mona Lisa!). You will figure this stuff out, but here is our advice. Assuming that you are taking a flight fro the US at night, the flight is no problem, since she will be asleep for most of it. However, she will also be awake when she gets there. Just be ready for staying up the first night a bit with her. My husband and I took turns the first night, getting sleep and dealing with her. Then try to quickly get her on the local schedule. <BR>Second, don't take too much food and diapers, etc, there will be stores there with everything. Find a market early on and get provisions like diapers, wipes, and food that you know she will eat, for us it was things like Kix or other cereal, pretzels, fruit, and keep it in your bag so when she gets cranky, you have something to appease her. <BR>Third, make sure you engage her into things at her level. For instance, stop and look at animals. When you are in museums (we went to one every day) walk her around and point out things in the pictures.. "See the doggy" etc. Our daughter has gotten so she really looks at art now. In the REubens room in the Louvre, she keep running around shrieking and pointing at the pictures, they were very colorful and had lots of animals and she loved them. Ignore the people who say "she won't know where she is, so why bother". Every new experience you can give your daughter will be good for her and build memories for you. <BR>Also, make sure you schedule in play time. We would stop at little parks and playgrounds and just let her go. In Paris, lots of small, beautiful churches had them. What better way to really feel the country your in than to sit down with the other parents and let yourr kids play together?! The downtime for you is not bad either! <BR>Make sure that you are not a real pain. It only happened a couple times, but if she was being disruptive, we just took her out. The more you engage them in what is going on and be mindful of their schedules, the less this is a problem. Also, take plenty of pacifiers. <BR>If possible, stay in hotels that have good service and/or lots of room. In the country side, we made sure we stayed in a farm hotel with a pool, so part of our vacation could be just looking at the animals, playing in the pool and having uninterrupted time as a family. In the city, having a good concierge was a godsend. We took our baby monitor and got to know the concierge very well. She agreed to arrange a babysitter, or, on her suggestion, we just put her down, turned on the monitor, gave it to her and told her what restaurant down the street (she had made the reservations) we would be at. We were able to have a couple of blissful evenings out alone. <BR>FInally, what to take. We took along everything to make our lives easier, and just humped it around. We just limited our hotel changes to make it easier. We took the pack and play for her to sleep in, which she is used to, we took an umbrella stroller, a necessity, and her carseat for the plane and car. <BR>FInally, do it do it do it. If you daughter is good natured, I see no problem. Get her used to experienceing new things and look at them as wonderful, rather than being frightened about new things. My child will be a terrible two when we leave for Spain!

I've been to Rome with my them 3 and 5 year olds. Why take young children to Europe? Because it gives you a different perspective. When we went we couldn't believe all the positive attention and help we received because of the young ones. We were even given an exclusive walking tour of the Vatican Gardens by a nun we met on our way to St. Peter's. We were introduced to nuns who did the laundry for the Pope and we attended the first Saturday rosary led by the Pope (which we didn't know about). The friars at San Callisto catcombs were joking around with the kids and everyone else were just as helpful and friendly. No, they weren't distractions because we weren't mugged or anything. Pompeii was a big playground for them as it was an educational tour for us. But who cares? We all enjoyed the trip and had a good. If we had taken the trip with out the little ones, it definitely would have turned out differently, not necessarily better or worse, but just differently! So take your toddler! Just be prepared and be open for the unexpected. Have a good trip!

Pompeii a big playground for them? Well, thats interesting. I don't think that Pompeii is known for being a playground. But you're probably the parent that lets their little overindulged tike do anything they want, regardless if its not the time or the place. The only place that children should run around and play in is a playground or park. Or a place that is specifically for children. Other than that, you're annoying people.

I've read the kids travel postings up and down Fodor's over time -- it will really help you, Kris. <BR> <BR>Can't give you a direct experience, but a 20 month old "running around and shrieking in the Reubens room" (Beth) breaks my heart. Let's hope there weren't any pictures hung low or vases on pedestals. <BR> <BR>Putting the child down, giving the monitor to the concierge and going to a restaurant down the street (Beth) seems like an unusual recommendation. I really don't understand this lifestyle. <BR>

Well Beth - I really pity the poor people that have saved years for a vacation in Spain that you are planning to release your Terrible Two on. It seems to me like not only are you not thinking of others you have no regard for your child.

Obviously, you are bitter because you didn't experience travelling as a young child. Yes Pompeii as a big playground! We tried to recreate what life would have been at that time. We showed them where the stores may have been and pretended to play store. We showed them what the different parts of the house may have been and played pretend. No, we don't travel like you and rest who go for 5 five minutes, take a picture and say we've been there. When we were there, a guide encouraged us to touch, feel and imagine. And that't what we did. No, they didn't scream and run around like maniacs. They didn't do anything disrespectful. As matter of fact they behaved better than most adult tourists who disregarded the "do not signs", those who suddenly cannot read signs and instructions and left their manners at home. And there were a lot of them! Unfortunatley, the reason we have annoying, intolerrant adult tourists is because they were never exposed to this cultural experience early in life! Why should this rich, cultural experience be limited to European children and not their American counterparts?

So you are planning to bring a 2-yr old to Florence, one of the art capitals of the world, during a Jubilee year? Exactly whose idea was THAT? You may not only be about to waste YOUR money, but, potentially, about to ruin somebody else's well deserved enjoyment of a (possibly) once in a lifetime experience. You want family time, go to Disney. You want an adult vacation, go to Europe for a week by yourselves.

BRAVO SANDY! I totally agree with you! I too am planning a trip to Rome this summer and have no intention of leaving my son at home with a NANNY! We take him everywhere with us. We've been to Greece (he was one year old) and to Vancouver in the past year and did not regret it one bit. Obviously he won't remember the trip, but we will. This is a vacation. Most of us employed people work all year and look forward to their two weeks vacation to spend time with their families, and here you have people like DEE and SISSY telling others to leave their kids behind. I don't think so!! Most people who don't like having kids around usually are people who don't have kids or are too impatient to handle them. <BR> <BR>KRIS! Enjoy your vacation! You are doing the right thing! The only thing I can advise you is too travel light...do not over pack!! Italy has everything we have. It may cost more but it will save you having to lug everything from here. <BR> <BR>Ciao!!! <BR>

To Dee, Sissy and Realitybites...Please be more specific and share your experiences on why you have arrived at such conclusions? Did a 2-year old ruin your travel? How? Or did you travel as toddler and hated it? Or did you take your own toddler who ruined your own vacation and others too? Please share so everyone can learn from these experiences. Unfortuntely, even if we want so much to go to places kids-free there will always be families who will travel with kids unless Europe closes its door to families with young children. Name calling and making judgements won't help anyone.

Take your kids, I frankly don't care! However, I am tired of long airline flights with crying kids that get the bulkhead seats! It happened on our trip to Australia.......we gave up our "premier" bulkhead seats, because they had but two little children next to us.....and then listened to a very upset baby one row away for nine hours from Budapest. If you have a nanny, it is probably because you don't want to be too involved with your children (this is from experience speaking.....had a family member work for a family as a nanny), so just leave the child at home......Guess, I do care, as little children don't like to have their routine disrupted.

Oh great. Now we have Merriem telling us that if one has a nanny, that means they don't want to be involved with their children. With all due respect, you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. People have nannies for all sorts of reasons. I am a stay-at home mom working part-time from home, and having a nanny help me out allows me to have someone watch my youngest child so I can volunteer extensively in the schools of my older kids (and mow the lawn, help with homework, buy groceries, pay the bills, do the taxs, get the cars fixed, etc.) But why am I telling you this? It is really none of your business how other people handle their child care. People have all sorts of arrangements for all sorts of reasons, and I think I speak for a lot of parents when I say that other people should just leave us alone and keep their uninformed opinions to themselves. My view is that if someone wants to take their toddler to Europe, that means they will miss out on many things and will sometimes inconvenience others. But I figure they will inconvenience me for just a few minutes, but they will have to put up with their own whining kids 24/7. And if you are in the bulkhead and don't want to move, you don't have to. You could just stand up for yourself and decline. (I know this because people have refused to change seats so my family could sit together on planes.)

Cindy.....Did I hit a nerve? However, I DO know from FIRST HAND experience, that most people that have nannies leave their parenting to the hired help. Justify it anyway you like. Also, the bulkhead seating was four across. We had two together and the two children were put next to us. So FYI, it would have been impossible to REFUSE to give up our seats, the children would still be there.......We moved, and the parents with another baby took our good seats......Don't get so upset about nannies.....I realize it is a very IN thing now with this two family income....just like the SUV sitting in the driveway. Everything will be okay, I just think that parents should raise their own children....and take them traveling when the children are old enough to appreciate it.

Merriem, <BR> <BR>Yes, you did hit a nerve, and I'm sorry to have been so hard on you. But I still think you're buying into the "People with nannies are highpowered spoiled yuppies who just want an SUV in the driveway and don't want to parent their kids" stereotype, as evidenced by your comment that it is a very "IN" thing (suggesting that people have nannies just to be fashionable) and the comment about the SUV in the driveway (suggesting that people who have nannies want to be fashionable by having expensive cars, I suppose). My view is that there are all types of parents doing all types of things, and one is in dangerous territory when one expresses sweeping opinions based on the experience of one family member who worked as a nanny for one family. I just wish people would stop being so judgmental about the difficult choices of others who have to figure out the best way to make things work for their families.

I think most people realize that it is difficult to face choices, we all do it everyday. Travel with a toddler is difficult. I think the reason that this issue always brings out such passion is that many (not most) people with kids seems to think that the world should revolve around them and their tykes. Forget for a minute about going to Europe. Just spend 5 minutes at your local mall sitting on a bench people watching. Go to a restaurant and watch how most kids behave. You'll know why people feel the way they do. Traveling with babies is difficult, unless you have no concern for others around you. Everyone works hard, not just parents with children. What about the parents of children out of the house, that now want to go and enjoy themselves? We are establishing more and more places for families with kids, and I think its great. If more parents were concerned on how their little dear acted in public you probably wouldn't see the replies you get on this forum. Rome is very crowded in September, not to mention still very hot, and this year is the Jubileo. I'm all for taking kids with you when you travel, as long as they are old enough to have control over themselves, know how to behave in public, and have respect for others.

Thank you very much Dawn- WELL SAID. It is however not only a matter of the children being old enough to handle themselves it is just as important that their parents take the time out of their meal, sightseeing (or on a plane sleeping or eating) to keep their children out of everyone else's space. It was after all their parents decision to give them this "enlightening" experience that everyone around them has to put up with.

Well put, Dawn. My youngest is a two-year old, and I know he is an unpredictable handful. That is why we don't go anywhere and don't have any fun. You won't see us at a restaurant aside from McDonalds. And I certainly agree that those of us with young kids should make a huge effort not to strain others with this problem. Believe me, most of us feel your disapproving glares and we wish we could be anyplace else when our child starts misbehaving. <BR> <BR>I will allow, however, that there might be other more fortunate parents out there who have kids who will behave consistently, and if they want to chance a trip to Europe, I guess they can try. My son and I will see the rest of you there in about 10 years. In the meantime, I think there are far better places to vacation when one has young kids than Europe. <BR> <BR>By the way, I have seen questions on this forum in which people ask whether it is wise to take a toddler to Europe. Usually, there are several response from parents who took a toddler and had a great time. Why is it that I have yet to see a response from someone who had admits that taking their toddler was a huge mistake?

Dawn, maybe I am too strong in my opinions, but.....when I am seated in a restaurant next to misbehaving children, I ask to be reseated, saying "if you don't mind, I've already raised four of my own". Actually they had lots of great experiences.....maybe not to Europe when they were 18 months old, but have been to Europe, Ecuador, Mexico, Australia just to name a few. We've taken them on a couple of cruises. Not only because they were older, but we could finally afford the BIG trip. Just two weeks ago we were sitting in a 5 star restaurant in Budapest,(just the two of us) looking out at the chain bridge.....and a child in a high chair was doing "typical" child things. They do not belong there, as they could care less about fine Hungarian wines, and local cuisine. However, there are parents that just think everyone wants to be exposed to their children....and that is just not true. I am in complete agreement about your comment about looking at the way kids behave today. It is different. The parents seem to try and "discuss" everything with them, and not correct the situation. I sat for over 8 hours on a flight to Amsterdam next to a lady with a lovely 1 year old.....however, babies will be babies....and the flight was very unpleasant. If I made anyone mad, then that was not my intention, but please look at the other side of the coin......we are not old....we have raised our children...and just don't care to share "your experience with your child".....

WELL SAID, DAWN! <BR> <BR>Yes, I posted from experience; a ruined visit to a world-class museum by a toddler & parents. Not all, but oftentimes people with kids do act like the world owes them because they have reproduced. I see kids in a restaurant or a museum and I run the other way. This all based on EXPERIENCE.

Thank you Sissy and Merriem, and I agree with you both. Cindy, I don't know if you're trying to be sarcastic but you make some good points. No one said that you couldn't go anywhere, and not have any fun....but, haven't you ever been at a craft show and see mothers with babies and toddlers crying because its hot, boring, maybe not an appropriate place for a kid to spend his day? When a baby acts well, like a baby, in McDonald's am I annoyed, No. When a baby acts up in a fine dining establishment, am I annoyed, yes. There is a big difference. Do the parents take efforts to remove the baby, so that 1) he can calm down, and 2) others that are paying good money to enjoy their meal, may do so? A baby or toddler doesn't know when they are acting up. A child does. Sissy makes a point, do the parents pay attention to the child so that the child in not infringing on others space? Or do they just turn a blind eye, carry on their conversation, and then laugh and admire every move their child makes? You can't tell me this doesn't happen, all of my friends treat their kids this way. I see it first hand. No one said you can't take your baby to Europe or timbuktu for that matter, but is this trip in the best interest of the child? Are you going to drag them to museum after museam? Most adults come back from Europe exhausted, why would you want the added stress? Taking children is a whole different matter. Our society and unfortunately my generation for some reason thinks it now o.k. to take your young child, baby, toddler out at all hours of the day and night. What happened? Shouldn't a baby be in bed at 8:00 at night? And when he's not and he's out at the mall, at a a movie, or having dinner at 9:00 at night, and he starts to cry and get cranky, whose fault is it? Is this good parenting? My response to Kris would be, have you been to Italy or any other country already? Have you done any traveling with your baby already? And are you willing to give up many aspects of the trip for your baby?

I can certainly agree that most kids in public are quite badly behaved. If I am out with my brood and they are behaving well, people rush over and compliment us, which I guess means that good behavior is sufficiently rare that people feel compelled to comment on it. <BR> <BR>Anyway, as I said, it is hard to find parents of young kids who will tell you to reconsider taking young kids to Europe, so allow me to do it. Going to Europe is one of the many, many things one probably should sacrifice when one has young kids. If you really do your job there, you are taking on the challenge of keeping your kids from ever being a nuisance for more than a few seconds. You will spend the whole time eating at McDonalds, walking them around on the sidewalk outside of good restaurants, playing in the park, and watching them nap in the hotel room and observing them closely to predict and manage the next tantrum. What's the point?

Dawn, my comments were sincere, and I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. My husband and I have resigned ourselves to several more years of "no fun" as we define it, i.e. movies, plays, travel, fine dining.

Fascinating thread. I guess I am inviting your scorn: I am taking a 6 month old to the Netherlands in May. I, too, have been annoyed by babies on planes and in restaurants. Now I guess I may be the annoyer. Obviously, I hope that is not the case. My kid is been pretty well behaved. It is so interesting, though, how I view other kids now that I have one. I'm much more compassionate and thrilled by them. No longer are they the scourge. One thing I have, perhaps reluctantly, realized is that the planes I have been on have all been a form of PUBLIC transportation. Thus, whether I like it or not, I may have to sit near a crying baby or a gouchy, smelly and/or talkative adult. At least with a crying baby, you can tactfully put in your earphones/earplugs. And, yes, my baby won't remember the trip, but we will and we want him along. It may be difficult -- and it will have its moments -- but that will be part of the adventure. My wife and I made a decision not to put our lives entirely on hold just because we have a baby. More power to those of you who are content sitting at home for the next 18 years. We are going to do plenty of that, but we must make an effort to get out and enjoy this short life. Good luck to all of you, whether you travel with or without children.

Good luck, Jeff. A six month old might be young enough that the little one will sit in the stroller day after day and let you enjoy yourselves. Just promise me you'll take the jet-lagged tot out of the museum/church/tour/restaurant at the first sign of trouble (or before there is trouble). <BR> <BR> <BR>

Cindy- I would like to thank you very much for being a reponsible parent and adult. I'm sure you don't hear that often enough. I just wish others would take your lead.

Well, for some reason, I feel like I have to defend myself. Although my child is far from perfect, I can't believe that we annoyed anyone in France, unless some people are simply annoyed by the mere presence of children, which seems to be the case for many of you. When taking our child to the Louvre, actually she slept through most of it, but woke up to be quietly carried around and shown the paintings, which she loved. In the Rubens room, she just really reacted to the paintings, so we let her down the look at them. The paintings were hung way above her head, there was no one at our end of the room except one older couple who kept telling us how great it was for her to be seeing this, and at the other end of the room was a tour group of about 30 older adults talking so loud that they drowned out any noise she made. If it had been quiet in the room, like it had been in some others, we would have popped in the pacifier and left immediately. Parents letting there kids be disruptive are simply being irresponsible. We were not disrupting anyone. <BR>Regarding leaving our kid with the conciege, we did so to go out to a four star restaurant that so many say we should not take a kid too. We purposefully stayed at a good hotel that offered babysitting. We got to know the conciege over the week (it was a small hotel) and she said that she would be glad to watch our child. I don't see why it is any more irresponsible to leav your kid with a 30 year old woman that speaks three languages and is in charge of the well-being of any entire hotel, but okay to leave your kid at home with a 12 year old kid from the neighborhood. I felt totally comfortable, or I would not have left my child. <BR>How can people be so judgemental when they no not what they are talking about. If parents are allowing their kids to act up without any discipline, then that is a problem, but you can not automatically assume that all kids are bad. If you think that kids should not be anywhere but McDonalds, playgrounds and home, then I worry about what our children will learn and, then, become.

Kris stated that NOT bringing her child is NOT an option and all she asked was advice from parents in SIMILAR situation - I'm sure she did NOT want yet ANOTHER back and forth, smart arse comment war on who's a good parent for their decisions to take or not take their kids on vacation. If you pro/con people all want to bring up such issues, email each other directly and free up this board for sound advice to the questions.

Sorry, Please, but I don't agree. Jeff was correct when he observed that this is an interesting thread, and those who find it dull needn't participate. If Kris is still reading, I'll bet she is getting a sense that a lot of folks don't welcome toddlers in Europe, and she should know that before she risks squandering what could otherwise be a romantic trip for two with her husband. <BR> <BR>Beth, I don't think anyone is saying your kids can ONLY be at McDonalds and parks. I'm saying that they can be places other than kid-friendly places when they are (1) ready and (2) closely supervised. I think you and I both know how hard it is to supervise toddlers well in public. Also, I don't understand why one would worry about whether kids are being exposed to enough culture as two-year olds when toddlers don't know a famous painting from a Dr. Seuss book. Let's face it -- when parents take toddlers abroad, the parent is often doing it for the parent's enjoyment in watching the child react to things. The toddler is not enriched by this, so kids who don't go to Europe will turn out just fine. But by your account, it sounds like you took your child outside promptly when she became disruptive, and I think that's all most people want.

Although the thread is fascinating, someone made the point that we really are not helping Kris by responding to her query. Point taken. Kris: I'm in much the same boat as you. Here are a few tips I have read up on (maybe on this board). Bring new toys for the plane and other situations to "surprise" your child if she becomes irritable. Old toys may not be enough of a diversion. If recommended or ok'd by a doctor, dimetap and over the counter remedies may help with breathing and/or sleeping on the plane (I don't want to get into the drugging the child argument, I'm just passing this along). For smaller children, passifiers/bottles for plane take offs and landings (helps with ear pressure). Something I didn't know is that you can probably bring a stroller right up to the plane and they'll store it during the flight (instead of checking it). I assume you have your passport, for which you print the child's name, sign yours and put in parenthesis your relationship to the child. Obviously, leave your itinerary very loose. Actually, we will be working around the child's day (for naps, feedings, etc.) So be it. Talk to your lodging people about extra beds/baby-type beds. I'm planning on taking enough diapers to get me there for a few days, then finding some there. The space used by diapers can be used for souvenirs. Assuming it applies: take disposable changing pads and (perhaps plastic grocery bags for diaper disposal). We maybe taking our fancy stroller (instead of an umbrella stroller). The fancy one, though bulky, has little shocks and is more comfortable to push and, more importantly, for him to sit in. We are also bringing a chest/back pack so he can have a different perspective. I'm probably opening myself up for criticism here. Please keep in mind that Europeans occaisionally make babies, too. (apparently to the chagrin of some visiting Americans).

This is a BS! American kids should not be taking to Europe. Kids are kids, but US kids just do not know how to behave in public - they are not tought to do so. All this because of the new methods of raising children - which quite frankly rarely work. In addition to the whole discussion about kids being a nuisense to other tourists - think about the smoking! Everybody in Europe smokes, in the states however smokers are punished by taxes as well as limitation on where to smoke - Why? Because it is bad for others.... Well, in Europe everybody smokes everywhere and you certainly do not want you US raised child to be exposed to smoke :-)

Great points Cindy!

We just arrived back from an 8 day trip to Venice & Florence and from our own experience I would strongly recommend bringing your child. We took our 10 month old daughter with us and she was a great traveler. We brought along enough supplies (diapers, wipes, food) for two days and had no problem buying more once there. We also bought some new toys and books to help keep her entertained. Rather than use a stroller we carried our daughter in a backpack carrier and it worked out great. We were also flexible with our time so as to follow our daughter's schedule. I'm sure many of the previous posters would consider us selfish but we took our daughter simply because we felt that we would enjoy our trip more with her than without. Did we have concern for others as we traveled? Of course! We avoided the nicer restaurants and sought out ones which seemed more family oriented. If she started to fuss in the museums (which she rarely did) we simply moved to an area where few would be disturbed. You simply do the things that you would want others to do if you were in their shoes. For the most part everywhere we went our daughter was very warmly received. We both agreed our trip was more enjoyable because of her and that having her along created positive opportunities to meet others. Regarding what good does it do her to travel, even though she might not know the difference between famous art and Dr. Seuss (often times I don't know the difference either), we did provide her with 8 full days of time with her mother and father which is time I would not trade for the world. Also we do not feel that our own fun should stop until she reaches the age of eighteen. Good luck and happy traveling!

Going to Europe is not cheap, and every time this subject about children and Europe comes up, I really wonder how can families afford these luxuries when they have small children? Would someone please answer that question? Our children are between 24 and 30 and when they were growning up, inspite of a good job....it wasn't even a remote possibility in the budget. I still think it is absurb to talk about how a two year old "reacts" to a painting in France....come on that is silly an somewhat nonsence.

Merriem: I wish I could say I was independently wealthy, but sadly that is not true. If it were, I'd be traveling right now, rather than traveling vicariously through these boards. Your question may make for a completely separate posting. In short, we make concessions to travel and use travel deals, such as frequent flier miles or specials. Also, we have found Europe (or at least parts) to be similar in expense to travel in the US (if flying to either coast and visiting major cities). There are exceptions, of course, like London, which we found to be very expensive. I have a hard time finding lodging near major cities for less than $100, but do well in Paris, for example, at $85 a night. Anyway, this topic warrants its own thread. <BR>

Merrium- I'll take a crack at your question about how people can afford to take little kids to Europe. There are probably many explanations, but I'd guess many of the parents are professionals who make money. Since people marry later and have kids later and have fewer of them, perhaps they both worked before they had kids and saved money. If one of them travels for business, they can get free airline tickets via frequent flier miles. Add in the booming economy and stock market, and I suppose a lot of people are flush and would rather travel than buy a bigger house. Besides, a baby wouldn't add to the meal expense or hotel expense, so I suppose it isn't that expensive to do.

I've taken my son to Italy twice, once at just over 2 yrs and again at 3 1/2 yrs. We always made allowances for playgrounds, gelato and just sitting and watching the world go by. It worked out just fine. If we ate out, we went to the restaurant early, supplied with books, small (quiet) toys and crayons. We had our own accomodations so we had the luxury of eating meals at home. We broke a few of our normal rules, sometimes Jack ate his gelato before his pasta and he probably drank a bit more soda than he normally does. But he lived, we lived, and we all had a great time. I have said it before, Europeans just seem to be more kid friendly than we Americans. If Jack even looked like he was going to cry nannas & pappas appeared from all sides! We didn't visit Rome but a word of warning on Florence. It is a very busy city, lots of traffic. Negotiating the streets with a stroller is a bit difficult. Check out the merry-go-round in front on the Armani and Principe stores. Have a wonderful time.

Ok, I was trying to be helpful, but I must admit, now I am trying (faintly) to be provocative: We are discussing (perhaps arguing) about taking children to Europe. There are two sides represented here. Let me propose: What is the difference b/t eating in a nice Paris restaurant with/near a child and eating in a nice Paris restaurant with/near a well-dressed woman who just happens to have a dog on her lap? Please don't tell me it is b/c the dog is quiet. Most of us would not welcome a guest and his/her dog at our dinner table at home. I'm afraid the distinction is that the woman/dog scenario is foreign, whereas the child scenario is, well, domestic, i.e. mundane. Even if this is so, perhaps we need to relish those things that transend oceans and borders, i.e. children. Please respond; give me heck. You know I am dealing with the guilt of taking a child to Europe, so I am a little unbalanced right now.