Another point of view:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4905072.stm

For me, it has nothing to do with age; all my life I've insisted on "Miss" because I'm proud of independence. Having almost given up the losing battle against the odious disease-sounding "MS" here, I'm always happy to receive French mail (such as Opera de Paris catalogs) with the more beautiful title.

I remember when my women friends would comment on the first time being called "m'am" by a clerk or waiter. They hated the passage from being thought of as "miss", figuring it meant they looked old instead of young, mainstream instead of rebellious, etc.

Today I frequently hear young people call older women - sometimes senior citizens - "miss". Better than "hey, lady", yes, but a clear sign of the generational degeneration of gentility in America today.

Well, my French friends have always advised me to:

1) check discreetly to see if she's wearing a wedding ring (often on the right hand, not the left as is the "rule" in the USA) - if she's wearing one, even if she's only 16 call her Madame.

2) in any ambiguous case, go with Madame, because calling a young woman (and I mean 25 or older here) Madame will not be offensive, but calling a femme d'une certaine age Mademoiselle without it obviously being a joke could cause offense and suggest you just know she's a spinster!

It's like the vous-tu thing. Trust your instincts and hope for the best. I've made much, much worse language gaffes in many countries than mis-using Madame and Mademoiselle.

Merci, SC

"Madame" it will be then, unless I'm dealing with someone who's obviously a teenager! I'm 25 myself, so I can't get away with Mlle-ing everyone. I'm married as well, but I rather liked it when I was called mademoiselle by a sweet older gentleman in Paris - to me, it just sounds nicer than madame, but then I'm not French!

If you enter a store where there are 3 - 4 women of varying ages standing by the front door, "Bonjour, mesdames" is more practical than pondering one at a time and greeting them individually.

what about being creepy- "bonjour cherie"

>Another point of view:

"Les Chiennes de Garde (the Guard Dogs), the biggest feminist group in France, say the title [Mlle] "perpetuates the submission to macho values" in France".

How ironic.

I submit that their very name (the feminine form) "perpetuates the submission to macho values".

How can one be a feminist in a language that has masculine and feminine nouns? :)

((I))

ira, an interesting question. I'm reminded that in many languages, "aritst" is feminine - it took me a while to say "sono una artista" when talking with an Italian.

My knowledge of French is rudimentary, but are there not many similar ways in which a frenchman must define himself with feminine words, and a woman with masculine? (Two more French words we approporiated!)

There was a movement a few years ago to feminize some masculine nouns 'when referring to a female), but the results compromised the meanings. The only example I remember:

gourmet --> gourmette (which is a chain link bracelet)

I presume that ira was being mischievous.

There is nothing wrong in being identifiable as a male or as a female. What might be objectionable is being treated differently because of one's sex or, as with Madame/Mademoiselle, one's marital status.

Padraig, I know you'll agree that there are a few occasions when it is entirely appropriate to treat someone differently because of marital status: dating, for instance!

I was given a ring years ago that could be mistaken for a wedding band; it only fit my ring finger, and I can't stand a ring on my right hand, since it feels in the way when I work or write. So I ended up not wearing it at all, because I don't want to confuse someone who MIGHT be wondering if I'm available. Unfortunately, now that I'm on the other side of 50, this happens less and less - that I know of.

Sometimes I cover my ass quite well: I said "might be objectionable".

"Les Chiennes de Garde (the Guard Dogs)"

The actual literal meaning is "The Guard Bitches".