Bonjour Madame/Mademoiselle - how to tell?
 

Okay, I'm sure this is a stupid question and that it probably doesn't make any difference anyhow (the French are used to dealing with our mistakes, I'm sure!), but I'm curious... When greeting a French woman in her 20s-30s, how does one know whether to address her as Madame or Mlle? Usually I greet shopkeepers upon entering their shop, well before I've had a chance to inspect whether they are wearing a wedding ring or not! And perhaps the most important question of all: does it really matter if you get it wrong? Would a Madame be offended at being called Mlle, or vice versa? And if you're dealing with women in the "iffy" age range of 20s-30s, which greeting is "safer"?

On our last trip to Paris, I sometimes got around this by simply saying "Bonjour", only to later read that while saying bonjour alone is at least better than not speaking at all, it's still considered slightly rude, and that you really should put the monsieur/madame/mademoiselle after your greeting to be the most polite.

Help? :)

If in doubt use Madame. Reserve Mademoiselle for the early twenties.

And if still in doubt just say bonjour.
It's not rude. Just *slightly* less formal.

Which do you honestly think is more "rude:" saying "Hello" or saying "Hello" and adding the incorrect title along with it?

I agree with Lawchick -- "Madame" if in doubt. However, if you are more than 75 years old, any woman under the age of 40 will enjoy hearing you say "Mademoiselle" and question your eyesight.

I live in Paris. My French women friends tell me that it is ruder to delete the title than to get the wrong title (although saying "bonjour" is better than not saying anything at all). I would save Mlle for very young women; anyone who looks older than her early 20s will not mind being referred to as Madame.

If you are 75 or over, you can call every female Mam'selle. :)

I seem to remember this exact question being on here not that long ago, maybe it's just coincidence that people ask this so much.

I would use Mlle for someone in their 20s, for sure, and probably 30s as that isn't that old nowadays. Many years ago, people in their 30s might be seen as much more settled and farther in life, etc., when people married so young. I really thing since you don't know French anyway, and they are going to know it, that you are worrying too much about trivia. If some French people are so up-tight and neurotic that they find someone saying bonjour without a title, even if wrong, that's their problem, is my opinion.

I have just used madame unless they are REALLY young. No one has scowled or spit on me yet, so I figure it's OK.

Funny, I found that using mademoiselle for anyone under fifty worked fine. Since I am over fifty and several people "mademoiselled" me (were they being kind? If so, it didn't annoy me at all), I am assuming that no one will take it amiss. I do think that it is generally better received to include the title along with "Bonjour" even if you get it wrong.

Very interesting.
In italy it's common to say Signora to any woman other than a ... well, a girl. Signorina doesn't simply mean unmarried, but quite young.

In the US we tend to hear "Madame" and give it a matronly connotation, but in France it is not so loaded with meaning, is it?

Ira : Chuckles ! :) :)

My understanding is that 'madame' conveys status whereas 'mademoiselle' refers to a young/unmarried girl. It is in no way insulting to address a mature women (out of school) as Madame. They do not think you are calling them "old lady".

Now I'm really curious. Since so many people say Mademoiselle should be reserved for the very young (twenties), surely any woman --say in her thirties --would be delighted to be accidentally called Mademoiselle -- no?

As a forty something female I don't think I would be insulted either way. I probably err on the Madame side, but....

Here's a question for you Frenchspeakers:

When you introduce a woman by her last name, would you be careful to say "mademoiselle" if she is unmarried? Or would you apply the same rule of thumb as above, bowing more to youth than marital status?

I also remember in movies where a teacher or governess would be called "mademoiselle" rather than madame, even if she were older. Is that archaic today? Would you call your French tutor mademoiselle even if she's 40?

Ooh, la la. Ma tete, she ees about to explode.

AND ...
is it more common for a man of a certain age (for instance, over 50) to speak to address a saleswoman or hotel clerk as mademoiselle even if she looks 40 - or at least until 30-ish?

I will now have a new question for my friend from Paris.

NeoPatrick wrote: "surely any woman --say in her thirties --would be delighted to be accidentally called Mademoiselle"

Why? The inference might be that she failed to attract a man to marry her.

<<"Why? The inference might be that she failed to attract a man to marry her.">>

Maybe the inference should be that no man was smart enough to snap her up!

:-d

IIRC, Mme connotes a level of respect and formality, similar to calling a man "sir" instead of "mister", so that calling a woman Mme would always be correct, unless she is decidedly a Mlle.

In that case, calling her Mme is usually reserved for letting her know that she has done something wrong.

Am I correct?

((I))

Another point of view:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4905072.stm

For me, it has nothing to do with age; all my life I've insisted on "Miss" because I'm proud of independence. Having almost given up the losing battle against the odious disease-sounding "MS" here, I'm always happy to receive French mail (such as Opera de Paris catalogs) with the more beautiful title.

I remember when my women friends would comment on the first time being called "m'am" by a clerk or waiter. They hated the passage from being thought of as "miss", figuring it meant they looked old instead of young, mainstream instead of rebellious, etc.

Today I frequently hear young people call older women - sometimes senior citizens - "miss". Better than "hey, lady", yes, but a clear sign of the generational degeneration of gentility in America today.

Well, my French friends have always advised me to:

1) check discreetly to see if she's wearing a wedding ring (often on the right hand, not the left as is the "rule" in the USA) - if she's wearing one, even if she's only 16 call her Madame.

2) in any ambiguous case, go with Madame, because calling a young woman (and I mean 25 or older here) Madame will not be offensive, but calling a femme d'une certaine age Mademoiselle without it obviously being a joke could cause offense and suggest you just know she's a spinster!

It's like the vous-tu thing. Trust your instincts and hope for the best. I've made much, much worse language gaffes in many countries than mis-using Madame and Mademoiselle.

Merci, SC

"Madame" it will be then, unless I'm dealing with someone who's obviously a teenager! I'm 25 myself, so I can't get away with Mlle-ing everyone. I'm married as well, but I rather liked it when I was called mademoiselle by a sweet older gentleman in Paris - to me, it just sounds nicer than madame, but then I'm not French!

If you enter a store where there are 3 - 4 women of varying ages standing by the front door, "Bonjour, mesdames" is more practical than pondering one at a time and greeting them individually.

what about being creepy- "bonjour cherie"

>Another point of view:

"Les Chiennes de Garde (the Guard Dogs), the biggest feminist group in France, say the title [Mlle] "perpetuates the submission to macho values" in France".

How ironic.

I submit that their very name (the feminine form) "perpetuates the submission to macho values".

How can one be a feminist in a language that has masculine and feminine nouns? :)

((I))

ira, an interesting question. I'm reminded that in many languages, "aritst" is feminine - it took me a while to say "sono una artista" when talking with an Italian.

My knowledge of French is rudimentary, but are there not many similar ways in which a frenchman must define himself with feminine words, and a woman with masculine? (Two more French words we approporiated!)

There was a movement a few years ago to feminize some masculine nouns 'when referring to a female), but the results compromised the meanings. The only example I remember:

gourmet --> gourmette (which is a chain link bracelet)

I presume that ira was being mischievous.

There is nothing wrong in being identifiable as a male or as a female. What might be objectionable is being treated differently because of one's sex or, as with Madame/Mademoiselle, one's marital status.

Padraig, I know you'll agree that there are a few occasions when it is entirely appropriate to treat someone differently because of marital status: dating, for instance!

I was given a ring years ago that could be mistaken for a wedding band; it only fit my ring finger, and I can't stand a ring on my right hand, since it feels in the way when I work or write. So I ended up not wearing it at all, because I don't want to confuse someone who MIGHT be wondering if I'm available. Unfortunately, now that I'm on the other side of 50, this happens less and less - that I know of.

Sometimes I cover my ass quite well: I said "might be objectionable".

"Les Chiennes de Garde (the Guard Dogs)"

The actual literal meaning is "The Guard Bitches".