Bid Farewell to FF Miles
 

I just picked my wife up at the airport and having some time, I had an interesting chat with a ticket attendant.<BR><BR>She said that the use of airlines FF as we know them, will be going by the wayside. She said that airlines need cash and not miles. But she also said that we can look for the number of miles to get a ticket to at least double.<BR>Anyone else heard any such rumblings?

which airline were you talking to?

I could see the airlines increasing mileage requirements and reducing seats, but doubt they'll go by the wayside. These are big for loyalty and if you don't reward frequent flyers (business travelers) then everyone would simply take the cheapest seat. I for one assume all airlines are reasonably price competitive and never bother to check airlines other than my preferred carrier.

USAIr is not discontinuing them. You have to spend cash to get the miles. It definitely builds carrier loyalty.

For a totally in depth discussion of this topic visit flyertalk.com. The consensus is ff miles will never be abandoned.

If it was as simple as the airlines giving people miles for flying and then having to pay the piper when they were later cashed in, a lot stronger case might be made for the industry trying to wean itself off of the rebate wagon. The truth is that frequent flyer miles generate a lot of cash for airlines. A large share of the miles are earned by means other than flying and the airlines are selling those miles. Carriers rake in cash every day through incentive programs, credit card affiliates, hotel loyalty programs and other purchasers of the miles who offer them as customer incentives. <BR><BR>The complaints about limited availability of award seats at minimum redemption levels have continued, but frequent flyer programs remain tremendously popular. <BR><BR>Several carriers have de-valued FF miles in the past year by easing into higher redemption requirements and ultimately, the airlines control the fate of the programs. But the idea that the liabilities associated with the FF programs outweighs the benefits in terms of marketing value and outright revenue? Well, it just doesn't seem to be the case. :o)

United Mileage Plus last week sent an email to all members saying the program would continue as is. I wrote to check on a few specific issues, and it's pretty clear that for the foreseeable future they have no plans to change their program in ANY respect.

Since when are "ticket attendants" people who would know what's going on with the inner workings of an airline company. Take the advice like you would take a horse-racing tip from someone working at a racetrack.

The above post was not written by a business person or they would realize that the one person any business does not want to upset is their best customers. <BR><BR>Airlines can upset Mom and Pop that fly one time every three years but they cannot upset Joe Corporate that lives on the airlines. The business is too competitive and people can simply switch airlines if need be. They will probably institute better programs instead of reducing what they have to lock in the paying business person. I let my business pay for the tickets and then use the miles for personal vacations....as do most people as the business expense is deductible.<BR><BR>I compare the poster Toby to a government employee that never has to play the game of business but gets to make the rules....and makes bad ones.<BR><BR>FF will stay around. They are all in too deep.

There may be some truth to this. <BR>NWA recently increased round trip coach US to Europe from 40k miles to 50k miles.<BR>Delta went from 50k miles to 100k miles.<BR>j.

I had to change a flight to Europe on NWA this October that originally cost me 40,000 miles. I am now going the end of April but since my flight destination is the same and my trip is still considered off season they are being nice enough to honor the 40,000 miles instead of the 50,000 it now is.<BR><BR>

I am actually puzzled as to why the airlines are inventory constraining the FF seats as much as they are. Despite the good deal to Amsterdam offered by USAir and United, y wife and I are still undecided what to do about a trip this fall, and I have talked to several of the airlines about seat availability for just three weeks away.<BR><BR>There isn't a whole lot to choose from, but there ARE some FF seats - - and what is most puzzling is that a ticket agents told me the plane (we might be taking) is still half unsold overall. Why not open up those FF seats and let "us" (people with huge FF mile balances) clear these "debts" off their books?<BR><BR>On the one hand, I understand that a person's FF account is like money the airline is holding, without having to pay intrest. On the other hand, it sits in their "accounts payable" column. Seems like they would rather get that "account" off their books, rather than let planes cross the ocean with empty seats!<BR><BR>Or maybe there is some aspect of this that I am not grasping entirely.<BR><BR>I'm just glad we have some decent options left, with such little advance notice.<BR><BR>Best wishes,<BR><BR>Rex<BR>

Rex, please go somewhere, anywhere...just go!

I just checked Delta's website, and it is still only 50,000 miles from US to Europe for coach. 100,000 miles buys you a coach ticket anytime...no more of the "no FF seats available". <BR><BR>I have to agree with Rex about not understanding why airlines to loosen up FF seats closer to flight dates when it is obvious that the plane is half empty. But, then, I'm a fairly logical person, which means nothing when dealing with FF programs!!<BR><BR>Anne

HO HO HO you are so funny I forget to laugh. Why you not talk nice to REX. He just offer helpful information. What kind of info you offer? HO HO HO

This was a while ago, so it may have changed, but only a fraction of the FF miles were ever actually used. So many FF fliers who rack up 100's of thousands of miles never use them (do you really think Bruce Springsteen cashes in FF miles?).<BR><BR>I wonder how those miles are carried on the books - are they a liability? If so, you'd think the airlines would want them off the books....as Rex pointed out, why are airlines so "cheap" with the FF seats? I'd love to know the statistics on requests for those seats - do 300 people call for each flight, asking for free seats?

Rex, <BR>I know you've used NWA before...you may want to look into this:<BR>NWA is now offering more "cash plus miles" reward tix. I just secured one for next month (w/ a 4 week window) RT Detroit to Nice for 20000 miles plus $450. There were no FF seats available, so it would have cost me double miles for a "blackout" reward ticket.<BR>j.

i don't know if Toby is right or wrong but i will tell you this. i just tried to book a FF on continental and the lady told me that you should figure on 50,000 miles for a US domestic ticket. continental is now adding additional miles for a no saturday night stay etc. She ending up by saying that "free" tickets are going to be harder to get.

I just heard on the news today that Continental, Delta, and NW are looking to share FF miles as partners.

I suspect this means that a much larger customer base will be competing for fewer FF tickets amongst the three carriers! The good news is that there will be three major foreign carriers to Europe to choose from: KLM, AF and AZ

In some ways, if you have American Express Membership Rewards, there already is interchangeability between NW/KL, DL, CO, US and others. All in knowing when to hold 'em and when to transfer 'em. Not that you can move them around in and out. But you can definitely "top out" various possibilities - - especially CO/NW/KL.<BR>

<BR><BR>To: ho@hum<BR><BR>Why do you insist on making a nuisance of yourself? You're obviously too old to ever grow up. Ask your mommy for a new sandbox.<BR><BR>Thanks Rex for your information and insights. Your logic is right, but unfortunately the airlines do not get it. Most of the problem with the airlines is irrational management. What drives those people? This is the perfect opportunity to unload their FF liabilities by opening up those empty seats to FF holders. Since they are doing the opposite maybe they are holding something up their sleeves. <BR>

Gee, it's too bad all you geniuses are wasting your time here when you could be working for think tanks!<BR>You "experts" are laughable!

Do FF miles have a cash redeamable value? If not, they are not liabilities on the books of an airline.<BR><BR>If an airline goes bankrupt, do you line up with the other creditors like banks and suppliers? No, you go cry into your cups.<BR><BR>FF miles are 'perks' only and airlines have no legal responsibility to honor them.<BR><BR>Hence the treatment you get.<BR><BR>Sorry, I am neither a profesional doctor nor spell checker.

Well, of course, USAir has gone bankrupt - - and this means that fuel suppliers, SkyChef, the printers of their magazine and other creditors are not going to get paid. But their FF miles are still being honored. How is this crying in a coffee cup?<BR><BR>I had miles with the long-gone Eastern Airlines and TWA and never lost any of them.<BR>

up<BR>

<BR>I had miles with Pan Am (remember that one?) and they are still being honored by Delta. Now Delta appears to be merging their FF miles with NW. Sweet for me.

Hmmm....I've used 5 frequent flier tickets this year, all booked less than a month in advance. Newark to Chicago, to Phoenix (2x), and to London--on Continental, BA, American. And an open-jaw ticket on Delta to St. George, Utah, from LAX. <BR><BR>I have yet to encounter a problem. Granted Newark is a huge airport with lots of flights and all of these are to big cities (except St. George) with lots of options, but, still, I've usually gotten my first-choice flight, and always my second choice.<BR><BR>What I love most about FF tickets is that you can reserve the seat and then not book it for 2 weeks. This is especially good if your plans are changeable.<BR><BR>I'm just hoping my 90,000 USAir miles don't become useless soon!

Toby,<BR>I'm willing to bet my 1.3M miles that if I still have them 3 years from now, you will have to kiss my ass!

I was on the phone with United to get two first class tickets to Milan in March 2003. They said they only had one seat left in F/C, however when I looked up on the United web site, the whole front section was available. Do they only allocate x number of seats? We have flown over there on ff miles for the last 5 years and had no problem. So we have one ticket in first and one ticket in business. I am hoping that when we arrive at the airport they can take the extra miles out of my husband's account and we can sit together.

Another point about Northwest FF miles - (perhaps also true of other airlines) Unless you specifically bequeath the miles in your will to a named heir, they will not be allowed to transfer to anyone else. The person who inherits the miles cannot transfer or leave them in their will to another party. Our attorney didn't believe us when we told him this, but checking with Northwest, found it was the case.

Rex - Your point about using up liabilities is well taken, but unfortunately no quite on the mark as to how the airlines view these FF miles.<BR>Remember that the whole science as to when they open up seats has much more to do with 'revenue management' than with filling the aircraft.<BR>As a result, there will be plenty of times (even 1 or 2 weeks out) when you'll find lots of space for SALE, but still limited availability for award travel. The airlines are using many years of data to help them decide the likihood of 'last minute' full fare paying pax. (corporate guys no doubt!)<BR>The way to determine that this is what they're doing is look at the fact that you can use a 'standard' award anytime, in which case they 1) reduce FF liabilities, and 2) are willing to trade off vs paying pax. You're generally just referring to 'saver' awards which are used simply to fill up otherwise empty space (as far as the revenue management computers go!)<BR>Best wishes.

At first I thought Toby was full of baloney, but I'm sorry to say that he may be on the money.<BR><BR>I called Continental to use FF miles and was told that unless we were willing to use double miles that we were probably wasting our time. When I asked if FF miles were going to be phased out, she replied "not phased out exactly, just more difficult to use".

So many different experiences and perceptions. We actually ARE able to get FOUR seats together to Paris, without using double miles - - with less than 3 weeks notice.<BR>

Just checked my handy-dandy seat-finder tool and found a ton of availability for minimum award levels r/t to Paris over the next couple of weeks for my carrier. We decided on Monday to do something over the upcoming holiday weekend and found many options to a host of very desirable destinations from which to choose. The more flexibility a person has, the more options there are for using miles at minimum redemption levels. Many people aren't able to operate that way because of jobs or other obligations and for them, I'm sure the system is much more frustrating. For my part, I've found the possibilities with FF programs and the ability to earn very large levels of flight credit to be nothing short of incredible over the past half dozen years.

ttt

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