"How could someone be shocked that the laws are enforced."

Watch someone try to get a steamer trunk on as hand luggage in Europe

<i>How could someone be shocked that the laws are enforced.</i>

Because they are so often not enforced?

Sure, the Swiss enforce them, but the Swiss enjoy rules - they are fake Germans, after all. But, at many European ports of entry, the immigration enforcement is a joke. I recognize that this upsets the narrative that the alarmists want to offer, but it is true. The risks of being caught, and facing the consequences many are so scared of, are far lower than many here want to admit. Again, the severity of the consequences are such that even a low risk might be unacceptable, but the risk of being caught is certainly far less than 100%.

<i>It should be plain that european countries do not want hoards of young people - often on a shoestring and with the potential to cost them a lot of money and effort in terms of social services - EVEN if they are American.</i>

Why would one presume that the immigration booth is the place most countries would choose to limit access to social services? In Denmark, for example, one doesn't simply walk into the welfare office and receive a check, just for asking. Heck, try going to the doctor without a cpr number and see what happens - they simply don't know what to do with you. You also aren't going to be getting free tuition or receiving a pension, just because you happen to be in the country. The prevention of unauthorized access to social services extends far beyond the immigration booth, and the enforcement at the border is less than one might think, as a result.

Over the years I've had many issues with immigration in various parts of the world and I can tell you, its not fun.

People like Travelgourmet are speaking from his own personal experiences, which I largely agree with, but he's not a 19 year old student. Student is the key word, it seems to set off all sorts of alarm bells to immigration officials for no obvious reasons that I can tell, but it does, I know from personal experience.

If people do get detained and deported, people think they can just 'lose their passport' and get a new one and that's the problem solved, its' not.

Personally, its cost me many thousands of dollars over the years in legal fees etc to overcome these 'small indiscretions'

Geordie

I originally came here with the assumption that crossing from say Italy to France to Switzerland is like crossing from Michigan to Indiana to Illinois.... But if there is an even remote chance that some even minor terror attack or even attempt, or even some suspicious intel received (that has happened numerous times in Europe in the past couple months) that may cause border control to be more effective and scrupulous ---- It's just not worth it for this petite 21 old female, even though she was planning to traveled as part of a small group, not alone.

Not to mention us, the parents, being a bit relieved....

Based on my conversation with the travel agent organizing this program (yesterday, in which she told me the chance of the Italians granting a visitor visa extending beyond the 90 days are slim), at this point I'm gonna suggest to my daughter not to bother going to her mid-December appointment at the Italian Consulate in Chicago.

I'm not sure why you would have thought that, but your assumption obviously was incorrect that going from one European country to another is the same as going between states within the U.S.

Even if you did chance coming to Europe and sipping the visa requirements you never know when there will be a clamp down like in Portugal at eh moment. It was announced without warning and is due to the NATO summit. Can anyone be sure a similar thing would not occur when you are over in the Schengen are? Every passport is being checked and the borders are effectively closed. You would never get out or in!

Checking back into this LOOOOONNNNNNNG thread, I notice that some of the people most scoldy about the "rules" and "respecting the rules" are the same well-past middle age people who urge young American students needing a one-way ticket to Europe to contract with an airline for a round-trip fare, and then simply not show up for the return flight.

I guess which rules and contracts a young person can be encouraged to lie about and skirt and break and is just -- well, up the "experts" on Fodor's.

suze,

People do travel between European countries these days like people in the US travel between states. And mammamia's daughter can do precisely that within 90 days of arriving in Italy since she holds a US passport. THe issue is what happens after 90 days if she is traveling without appropriate documents for whatever country she is in.