Belgium Considers Splitting Into 2?
 

That was the headline of an article in my Sunday fish wrap - but without the ? on the end

BELGIUM CONSIDERS SPLITTING INTO 2

I've been traveling in both Belgiums for years and know something about the rather acrimonious relations between the FLEMISH (Dutch-speaking very prosperous northern part) and the WALLOONS, the French-speaking folk in the significantly less prosperous southern half - an area of archaic industries and rather depressing looking cities at times.

And though the country is but 177 years old (I've heard the demarcation line between Walloon and Flandish was basically the military line of Napoleon's forces and his opponents at the time of his Waterloo??)
it's not a natural country - ethnically at least.

For eons the Flemish were under the cultural and economic hegemony of the Walloons and french-speakers. I've been told that Flems had to speak French in schools, courts, etc. and this led to much anger that still seems to last.

Belge has 10.5 million residents - 6.5 million are Flemish speakers.

It's often said that the only real Belgian is King Albert II (?) and that only frites, beer and chocolate unite the country.

Brussels, the capital, is the only bi-lingual city though Francophones are in the majority.

I once jogged thru Brussels northern suburbs and the language could change quickly from one area to another.

The current headline in the OP arises because of Belgium's current government crisis as three months after elections there is still no government - and one right-wing Flemish nationalist party (Flemish Interest) is now advocating a Czech style 'velvet divorce'

Well without taking sides it just seems daft that a country so small would split up - how about make up and come together.

And Brussels is a stumbling block as neither side would or could afford to abandon the city - in many ways the capital of Europe.

What do you think?

I think it's a distinct possibility, though not necessarily in the short term.

I'm not sure whether or not I'm in favour of a split - I really don't understand enough about the way government works here, or the underlying reasons for the bad feeling between Flanders and Wallonia.

There has been much talk of Brussels having to become a city-state in the event of a split, as neither side would agree to let the other side "have" the city. I don't know how workable that would be, however.

Many locals here in Brussels have been hanging Belgian flags from their windows to show their support for a united Belgium.

Seems a shame that Belgium can't do what Switzerland does and embrace it's linguistic and cultural diversity. To me it gives Belgium more character, not less.

Also, I find it interesting/surprising that while the French-speaking areas are poorer, the capital city and seat of power is itself French-speaking.

This somewhat similar to what happened when Czechoslovakia split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. Since then the first has prospered tremendously, the latter is, I believe, doing OK - but hasn't had the same growth spurt.

I think Switzerland is diffeent because it has been an independent country for so long - unlike Czechoslovakia - which was sort of a creative of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

England and Scotland could be going the same way.

There is an interesting piece on the Beeb's site about this:
http://tinyurl.com/2klzgh

Don't forget the third official language of Belgium - German. There may not be many of them but it is an official language - I remember King Boudewijn's funeral was held in all three languages.

When i first came to Belgium in college, fresh from French courses i was shocked that in Bruges no one understood my French

now even if they spoke French they probably would not have understood my fractured French but it just seemed that only a few older folk in Flemish areas spoke any French

and i suspect same for Walloons and Flemish - so perhaps English is the de facto language of communication in Belge?

>unlike Czechoslovakia - which was sort of a creative of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

FYI, CZ was created after WWI by the treaty of Versailles, disappeared in 1939, was recreated in 1945, came under Soviet control in 1948, was recreated in 1968(Prague Spring) and was almost immediately invaded by the USSR, was recreated in 1989, and was split into the Czech republic and Slovakia in 1993.

Too much history. :)

((I))

Czechs (Bohemians) and Slavs (Moravians) don't mix well

I love the Walloons, French with an English sense of humour.

and oft depressing cities like in England's midlands.

Never managed to get by in English either - the Walloons seem to refuse to speak anything but French, nice slow French so I can understand them, and although I am fluent in Dutch the Flemish accent is sometimes so inpeneratable that even Flemish TV puts up subtitles!
Bizarrely we found that Italian was the most useful language to have in Liege.

Wonder who will get the Mannequin Pis?

Don't know. I guess whoever keeps Brussels - I read that a couple of weeks ago the poor chap could hardly pee - to mark national prostate week :D

De Gaulle used to say that Belgium was a country invented by the English to annoy the French.

That'll do for me.

There's a very good article on the BBC website today (actually part of a regular blog on Europe), which I think gives a clear explanation of the issues in Belgium:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markmardell/

Does it even matter in the context of the EU? Individual countries are losing their identities anyway. I miss the "Old Europe". I'll be excited if/when a country decides to secede from the Union.

Viva la border crossings!

"Individual countries are losing their identities anyway"

You think so? Other than carbon copy fast food joints and shopping centres, I don't see it.

It astonishes me how little Europeans know about other European countries.

A French friend thought that there was no cheese in England.

"Also, I find it interesting/surprising that while the French-speaking areas are poorer, the capital city and seat of power is itself French-speaking."

Cimbrone; Brussels is officially a bilingual city, although it's true that a majority there speak french, it's not a french-speaking city. Belgium has had a Flemish Prime Minister for a very long time. French is not the dominant language in the federal government.

The royal family are french-speaking (though they do speak Flemish, it's not their first language); they are much more popular in Wallonie than they are in Flanders.

The French make fun of Walloons and, what my ex-wife termed "country French" and the Dutch have a whole raft of jokes about Belgians

Q- who can Belgians make fun of except each other?

They have Dutch jokes - like Scottish jokes they are about the tightfistedness of the Dutch.

hetismij - are you Welsh, Dutch or Belgian Flem or all of the above?

You live near Utrecht right?

Welsh-Dutch mix - guess you're really tight!

Lucky Belgians!! According to some (right wing, mainly) politicians and media, Spain is tearing apart in at least three countries (Basque Country, Catalonia and Galicia).

And the U.K. seems bent on self-destructing too - into 4 entities - Wales, Scotland, england and northern eire (which should be a part of Eire Republican IMO)

can envision the day when the euro is used throughout the British Isles except in pound-foolish England.

If a Belgian stops you in the street in Brussels - say to ask the time - they usually address you in English. Seems this is to avoid the vexed question of Flemish vs Walloon.
Anyone who thinks that they should stay together because they are small should tell the Irish they should still be in the UK (I dare you) and the Norwegians that they should still be tied to Sweden.
NB Scotland has a larger population than either - about half that of Belgium.

not sure those analogies are good ones

Ireland and Norway were proper countries ruled by foreign powers and repressed - they broke free.

it seems in Belge that the Flemish are instigating separation not because of oppression - at least now, no doubt in the past, but because they wish to jetison their now poorer cousins - same reason many English give for want to rid themselves of the 'Scottish problem'

It's the Scots who have the oil and the UK is the 13th largest oil producers in the world, just behind Nigeria.

The Scots cost the English a fortune (especially those of us in the SE of England).

Without England Scotland would be a wet Albania.

PalQ, I am half Welsh half English. The best half is Welsh. I live near Utrecht, and even nearer to Amersfoort.

There is a debate going on, low key at the moment, but taking place nevertheless, over whether the Dutch want the Belgians back. General opinion is, I think, no, but no one here ever listens to what the people think so if Belgium does split I wonder how long it is before that becomes the next crisis.
I really hope the Belgians do manage to reconcile their differences. It will set a precedent and lead to all sorts of problems throughout Europe if they don't.

"If a Belgian stops you in the street in Brussels - say to ask the time - they usually address you in English"

Hasn't been my experience. Whenever I've been asked a question on the street in Brussels, most of the time it's in French. I can't even think of the last time a Belgian asked me something in English first. Out in the Flemish burbs likes Zaventem or Diegem, yes, but not in Brussels itself.

hetismij:

hadn't thought of Belgisch Flems wanting to join Holland but makes sense to me

and Walloons to France, bien sur.

that may not be so bad. better than two smaller countries IMO.

still weird that a country whose people to the outsider look so much the same find language a barrier - perhaps as always it's more economic.

"hadn't thought of Belgisch Flems wanting to join Holland but makes sense to me"
As far as I know, the Flemish are not at all fond of the Dutch. I can't imagine that they would want to become part of the Netherlands.

I am one of these Belgian Flems, and I can assure you that we don't want to be a part of the Netherlands. We more or less speak the same language, but there are a lot of differences.

I understand that

but it seems, from an outside, that the differences in cultural between some states in the U.S. is far greater than the difference between Belgian Flemish and Dutch.

But again that's from an outsider's view.

"Without England Scotland would be a wet Albania."

That is almost as funny as "the carbon footprint of a burning protestant."

There was for a while even talk of Limburg leaving the Netherlands and joining Belgium, as it's culture is more like that of Belgium.
Now Belgium is pulling itself apart that talk has ended.
I can't see Flanders joining the Netherlands, or Limburg joining Belgium (yes I know Belgium also has a province called limburg), and I really hope that Belgium stays Belgian, one country, three languages. If Switzerland can do it then I hope Belgium can too.
I have never had anyone speak to me on the street in English in Brussels - always French or reluctantly in Flemish, the same as in the shops and restaurants there. Dutch friends who lived in Sterrebeek ended up speaking French all the time.

hetismij:

Q- Are Flemish Belgian and Walloon Belgians the same ethnic group?

Are Dutch and Belgians same ethnic group?

Seems Dutch are bigger, blonder than Belgian flemish

just curious as to what the divide is between Flemish Belgians and Dutch - perhaps only the language links them and not ethnicity?

dank u

PalenQ

Ethnicity is a total red herring, the British and the Irish are of the same ethnicity of the Belgians.

"The whole conception of ethnic groups is so complex and so vague that it might be good to abandon it altogether."

Max Weber.

I'm also one of the Belgian 'Flems' and, while I have nothing against the Dutch, I don't think Flanders could ever be part of the Netherlands. There are too many cultural differences.