Behave yourself on the plane - or else!
 

Haha! :-)

I do hope that he had a raging hangover! However, if I'm quite honest, if he wasn't being violent and I was on the plane, I'd probably rather not have to make the detour!

That's always a tough call. My husband is a pilot and I'm sure he would have diverted the plane too. One time (this was shortly after those two pilots flew the plane when they were drunk – or was it that they were caught at the bar in the airport?) while Tony was greeting passengers at the door (before 9/11) one male passenger asked Tony if he had been drinking. Tony didn't say a word, but got his "stuff" and walked off the plane. He went directly to the medical office in the airport and asked for a breathalyzer. He was afraid other passengers might have heard this guys comment and you know how quickly things spread: by the time the 100th person hears it, the story is twisted! Tony could have been fired that day. Well, about 2 hours later, he returns to his airplane, calls security and has the guy taken off the plane (that’s his right) and explains to the other passengers what happened. They basically cheered him, despite their delay in travel.

Just as in an airport where one can be fined or charged for making any kind of threats, the same goes for onboard an airplane.

Monica ((F))

Monica -
I think your husband getting a breathalizer was a good defensive move on his behalf. I'm not sure I agree totally with having the passenger removed - especially if it occured near when those two pilots were found to be drunk. We as passengers don't have the right to question the pilot or flight attendants? Did he say it in a sarcastic manner?Maybe this person had a fear of flying and drunk pilots were just a another irrational fear that would plague him on his trip - not that a pilot who had been drinking would admitt to a passenger that he had been drinking. I just find it odd that passengers don't have the right to question the pilot while still on the ground. Maybe you can give us some more insight.

Since when is asking a question making a threat?

South African Airways did something similar several years ago, just after they had banned smoking. Three men refused to stop smoking on a flight, so the pilot diverted, landed at the nearest airport, and had the men ejected from the flight.

The Airline then took legal action against the men for cost of extra fuel to do the diversion. At the time, the move was widely applauded, and SAA did not have any more problems with people smoking on board.

Passengers cheered when a man was taken off a plane for what? for voicing a safety concern?

And how did the pilot know? Was he out of the cockpit - isn't it a breach of the safety rule after 9/11?

Why making sure the pilot is sober is a threat?

Maybe even tipping the pilot is not a joke any more :(

Well, let me see if I can clarify this. “Since when is asking a question making a threat?” Tony’s livelihood was threatened. Any passenger that heard the guy’s comment could easily have filed a compliant and Tony could have lost his job. Any other pilot would have also gone to get a breathalyzer to protect themselves from stupid guys like the one Tony encountered. Stupid you ask? Yes: Why would anyone walk on board, question the pilot, and then go sit down in his seat? Stupid. If he felt that the Tony had been drinking, he was pretty stupid for staying on board. Would you stay on board wondering if the pilot had been drinking? He’s the type of person that causes problems, not just to the pilot but also to the flight attendants (as in the original posting). To clarify, no, this guy didn’t see the other drunken pilots – this was a few weeks after that incident.

“And how did the pilot know? Was he out of the cockpit - isn't it a breach of the safety rule after 9/11?” As I stated in my message, this was before 9/11 when many pilots greeted passengers at the door of the cockpit. No breach in any regulations.

I hope I’ve clarified this. If not, then there’s not much more I can add.

Monica ((F))

Monica, I understand your story and your husbands situation and IMO your husband handled the situation in a very mature, dignified and proffessional manner.

I fired a painting contractor many months ago. He was not doing the job the way the contract read. At 10:00am in the morning I was reviewing the work with him and getting a real funny feeling about this fellow. He suddenly popped off with "say, tell me something, are you drunk". I looked at him and to tell you the truth got a bit scared. So did my daughter. Long story short I fired him, my daughter got a neighbor to come home (a fellow who had just returned from Iraq) and the neighbor pulled me aside and said "call the police" something is wrong with this fellow. I did,the PD came, I wrote a check for what the painter wanted for the work he had done and he left. And the PD stayed there with us until he did.

No doubt your husband listened to his sixth sense. A good thing to do. Especially when he as the pilot is in command of the plane.

I wonder if the story would have been different if they'd served the guy the drink he'd asked for. Or do airlines have some sort of liability in serving someone too many drinks?

While your husband was smart to perform the breathalyzer, that ended any question of alcohol use. The two hour delay, the explanation of its cause and the reaction from his fellow passengers would have been both punishment and instruction for the jokester had he been allowed to remain on board.

The assertion that the jokester was the type to cause trouble for flight attendants is speculative. Your husband has the right to have a passenger removed, but in this case, doing so was an overreaction.

beachbum, when I did marketing for a large US airline for a year one thing I learned is that the attendants are not suppose to serve liquor to anyone that appears that they are getting intoxicated or anyone that seems to have a "problem". No liquor is to be drank by a passenger except that liquor which has been served by the attendant. In otherwords, no liquor brought on board can be consumed. Imagine it is the same now. But no doubt someone else here has more information about airline rules and procedures than I do however.

Monica, what the man did was wrong, but he was not making a threat. Your husband was wrong to "get even" like he did.

All of you people who think Monica's husband was wrong to remove the passenger from the plane have clearly never been placed in a position where your livelihood was jeopardized by a fool.

I say 'bravo, Tony' and 'hisses and boos' to all who think he was wrong. And if it was only revenge, so what? People think they can get away with anything today with no responsibility for their actions. It's about time they start to learn.

If the passenger truly thought Tony had been drinking, he should have deplaned and filed a complaint with the airline. Since he didn't do this, he was clearly only interested in being a troublemaker.

Thanks, Monica, for your story.

I'm just surprised the guy didn't sue, saying his bad treatment was on account of his race, gender, religion, disability, veteran status, sexual orientation, national origin, or whatever else he can think of. Even when they're at fault, people alway seem to try to "get back" with a lawsuit. Argh! But I'm done ranting.

I have been carrying my own booze on airplanes for 40 years. The only requirement of the FARs is that the crew <u>serve</u> it (<i>i.e.</i>, control the intake). Ninety-nine percent of the time, they don't even bother, and I mix my own G&amp;T.

I carry a card with FAR 121.575 printed on one it. It has resolved every question so far.

I just read all of your comments to Tony. Here's his response as I type it:

First of all the FARs (Federal Aviation Regulation) state that no airlines can continue serving alcohol to passengers who appear to be intoxicated/or are becoming intoxicated.

I am professional pilot and I’m not a vindictive person. My evaluation of the passenger was not solely based on that one comment he, but the entirety of the situation. In my evaluation of the passenger was he was going to make more trouble. Yes, that is subjective, but that’s my job since I’m in charge of the safety and security of my passengers. I stand at the door to greet my passengers, but I am also evaluating them as they come on board.

Even though the FARs may state you can carry alcohol on board but must be served by the flight attendants, airline policy can be stricter than the regulations and may not allow passengers to carry their own on board. If you want to know your rights as a passenger, read the back of your ticket - you don’t have many rights. That’s mostly because of our concerns for your safety and security.

The 2-hour length was actually because of the testing performed by the medical staff.

As a pilot I’m concerned with my passenger’s safety, security and comfort, but I’m not a public relations person and I would rather have most of my passengers happy than one disruptive person on board. And if I have to I will remove that person. This is a very rare occurrence, but this is our job.

In today’s environment we are taught that disruptive passengers may be testing the onboard security and trying to draw the air marshal out from under cover to allow for further terrorist activity. Were not allowed to have a sense of humor when our aircraft is at stake. This is solely my decision as the captain. Since one person made reference to the FARS, they can look up who the onboard security coordinator is: The captain.

Passengers should realize that when they are on an airplane it’s not the same as being in their own car. When there is up to 250 people on the airplanes that I fly, one person can cause a problem that affects everyone. Passengers need to be more security conscious and less tolerant of disruptive passengers. You have to take part in your own security as well.

It’s healthy to have this type of discussion and I think the airlines needs to have this kind of information available to passengers so that they understand the aviation world. What people hear on the news is sometimes so inaccurate that it upsets me.

As a wise man once said, “That’s all I have to say about that.” (Forrest, Forrest Gump). (Okay, Tony can have a sense of humor when he’s not at work.)

So, there you have it – Tony’s response.

LoveItaly, I’m glad you called your neighbor and police. That could have turned in to a real nasty situation.

Monica ((F))

I fully endorse the crew's response to the situation. The explicitness of the threat (or lack thereof) was not material. As a pilot, I totally support Tony's position.

For airlines to force passengers to buy their hootch represents a <i>restraint of trade</i> violation (a legal term). I don't know whether this has been ever tested, but I don't think that whatever the corporate lawyers may have written into the Conditions of Carriage would hold up to legal scrutiny.

PS: Tony said he will be willing answer any of your specific airline questions. As an example, no you will not get sucked out of the airplane through that tiny hole that the bullet created when shot, as in the James Bond movie. LOL!!!

Trivia: The drain in the sink in the lav is just a hole in the airplane that sucks the water out of the sink due to air pressure differential.

Trivia 2: When you flush the toilet, the “stuff” doesn’t leave the airplane.

I've always wondered if a smoker could light up in the lav as long as he blew the smoke into the basin and held the drain open.

And if one did, who cares? The smoke is outside.

The passenger monicapileggi's husband had thrown off the plane wasn't thrown off because he had tried to be a helpful and credible witness but because he had abrogated authority from airport security, who would be the proper people to whom to go if one had any genuine suspicions. It is not up to any given passenger to hold himself an authority to whom pilots or indeed anyone else should hold themselves accountable.

Furthermore, a credible witness would have stuck to reporting only such relevant firsthand observations as he or she had made, as in: &quot;The pilot of flight xxx appeared flushed and his breath smelled sweet to me&quot; (or whatever it was they observed that had aroused their suspicions.) A credible witness does NOT undertake to try and interpret those observations, along the lines of &quot;the pilot of flight xxx appeared to be drunk&quot;. Nor does he attempt to intimidate the pilot into surrendering information, as the passenger did in this case. And yes, to demand accountability is intimidating, and an outrageous thing to do when one hasn't the authority to do so. Besides, it's ineffective to ask someone presumably incapable of sound judgement to render a judgement about their sobriety.

The passenger's calmly taking his seat subsequent to asking the question is akin to those jerks who used to joke about bombs whilst in airports, until it became an offense to do so. But just as when a bomb is reported, Tony had no choice but to treat his being accused of drinking with utmost seriousness.

I understand Tony's position, but when we have completely lost our sense of humor the terrorists have indeed won!

I don't think it's a question of losing our sense of humor but rather of Tony doing what he has to do to be sure he keeps his good standing as a pilot. Apparently he felt threatened enough by this guy that he thought he had to exonerate himself before flying that plane, that's all.

He did that. It took some time. The plane left late - they do that all the time. I don't have a problem with it at all. Some jerk boards a plane and starts claiming that the pilot's drunk when he's not - seems pretty smart to me for the pilot to get the definitive proof he's not drunk before he takes that plane off.

Thanks Monica, I too am glad my daughter ran over to the neighbor (who besides being an AF serviceman just returned from Iraq is also with another county's Sherrifs Dept). And later on I did some discreet checking on this painter and he obviously does have some problems. That has been the only time I have ever hired someone that turned out to be a problem. I guess from all of my years owning an insurance agency I am possibly more &quot;tuned&quot; into people than perhaps the average person. In fact looking back on the situation I realize I should never have hired him for the job to begin with. One of the few times I didn't listen to my sixth sense. Lesson learned.

About your Tony...from the time I was a little girl I was informed that the captain of the ship is in control (lots of Navy people in my family and my grandfather was a Navy Captain). As I grew older I was told that the pilot of the airplane was in control.

That is my viewpoint to this day. When I get on an airplane I put my life in the hands of the pilot. I expect him to make good decisions based on his knowledge, education, experience and sixth sense. I would hope Monica that all airline pilots handle unusual situations in the same intelligent manner that your husband did. I salute your husband Tony! And Happy New Year to both of you!!

Thanks for the latest comments. It seems that with Tony's words, there is a clearer understanding of what happened and what he (sometimes) has to deal with.


Robespierre, do let us know if the smoking into the sink works! Just don't get caught. ;)

On a side note, I happened to Google FAR 121.575 and found this document: http://www.ofainc.com/newsletters/1998/ofapg5.html

Happy New Year to everyone. Let's fly safe in 2006.

Monica ((F))

I haven't had a cigarette since 1980 [(

I don't think your husband's response clears up anything.

He got even the only way he could, using his power as the plane captain. All this &quot;Tony’s livelihood was threatened&quot; stuff is a smoke screen.

Being human, I expect most of us would have done the same thing.

Some people get out of hand no matter what, but many people are not trained to handle intoxicated people, this includes law inforcement personnel.

I've seen boistereous drunk people act &quot;ok&quot; until someone starts pushing them around.

After the deregulation of air lines, a man was arrested for &quot;threatening&quot; and disturbing everyone on the plane. He said &quot;get this plane in the air or get us out of it.&quot; Take-off delay of three hours, 115 degrees outside, no cooling on the plane, and the line refused to deplane. Several lawyers were on the plane, made quick notes of everything, and got all the passengers to sign the complaint against the airline. The airline quickly drop the charges , but they were sued anyway.

This man may well have needed to be gotten of the plane. As far as the airline trying to get their money back for the expense, it was their idea and not his.

I am a flight attendant. We take everything on a airplane very serious. If someone asked if I had been drinking I would immediately consult with my captain and ask him to advise me on my actions. It would be very upsetting to me if a passenger made such a statement. #1. Why would he say such a thing? #2 I would be very uncomfortable. Is this passenger looking to cause me trouble during flight? Passengers don't realize that we listen and watch everybody on the plane,and the passengers have all eyes upon us. During a flight. Our job is for everyones safety,and to make everyone as comfortable as possible. What if you as a passenger overheard that statement? Wouldn't you start looking at the flight attendant a little differently? We don't need that,we want you to feel comfortable and confidant that we have your utmost safety in mind. Please watch what you say on your next flight, if you have made me as an FA uncomfortable and I have felt threaten in anyway, you too could be off the flight.

&quot;Please watch what you say on your next flight, if you have made me as an FA uncomfortable and I have felt threaten in anyway, you too could be off the flight.&quot;

Gross over-reaction mode above.

A little power goes a long way, especially for those who have never had any. I guess its too much to ask that common sense prevail.

Well North Shore, apparently you probably have never been responsible for the lives of 250 people. Have you ever had to make a decision for anyone but yourself. You are the type of person who can't be reasoned with. So I will not even try.

Tony

Tony, I have had responsibilty for way more than that, and made plenty of life or death calls so don't give me that line of bull. No brag, just a fact.

Use common sense, be calm, don't let it get personal, don't think you are the king of Siam and don't abuse your authority - try it some time, it's much easier than you might think.

Well - I've been on planes with drunks a couple of time - pre/911 - and I wish they had made a stop and dropped them off. Their behavior was loud and boorish, staggering up and down the aisle - and in one case vomiting on another passenger. Their language vulgar - to say the least (one word I had actually never heard before, even after 25 years of riding the Broadway local) and frankly I did feel we were in danger of being harmed - even if inadvertently.

The safety of the plane is the responsibility of the pilot - and all final decision are his. Anyone who doesn;t like that idea shouldn;t fly.

And if some jerk finally gets the comuppance for his ridiculous behavior (and perhaps if he had faced the consequences of his behavior before he wouldn;t be such a jerk) then I'm all for it.

I am a strong believer in individual rights - but the activities of those who misbehave on planes is the equivalent of shouting fire in a crowded theater - it goes beyond free speech and endangers the rights - not to say safety - of everyone else involved.

Well Northshore, may I suggest you take the bus,because when your on a airplane the Captain is in charge and control of all things including the Flight attendants. And yes if a flight Attendant feels threated you could be grounded. It has nothing to do with egos or power! What is has to do with is your safety along with the safety of all other passengers. If you call that power-- whatever, According to the FAA I don't have to put up with any type of abuse on a flight. If you don't like it... don't fly because thats how it is and it the law. It's because of our passengers we have jobs, so you can bet that we want all passengers to enjoy our flights and you can bet if a person is taken off a flight there is a good reason for it. Do us all a favor, if you don't like it,don't fly. But most of all don't be Stupid.

We have been on planes over the years with plenty of drunks..
Last time was last July when we flew out of Jax and changed planes in Atlanta.
My poor husband sat next to a stinking stupid drunk who was loud and did not shut up and kept asking us personal questions.
What did the flight attendants do?
Looked, shook their heads and made &quot;sorry&quot; faces.
We were on our own, had to deal with him the best we could.
So while I am thinking a person can be taken off of a plane for just saying something is a bit extreme, I am ALL for taking drunks off the minute they are noticed.
Maybe WE should take the breathalyzer tests before boarding LOL.

DKay, I've got a feeling you are a real pleasure to fly with, but I doubt you would cut it on my plane.

NorthShore, are you a pilot for a commercial airline??

It's a good idea that Tony got a breathalyzer test to prove that he was not intoxicated, but it's a very bad idea to throw a paying passenger off a plane just because he asked about it. Asking about safety is never a mistake, no matter how much it bruises the over-inflated ego of a pilot. A pilot who cannot take that type of question thinks too highly of himself to fly; his pride may interfere with his judgement.

Additionally, there are other drugs that don't show on a simple breath test. If the pilot takes a breath test but then throws off anyone who asks questions, I find myself wondering what else he might of taken, and how he will behave in an emergency if he has to choose between his ego and doing the right thing for the safety of the aircraft.

I'm all for throwing drunken passengers off the plane or at the very least, give the poor passenger sitting next to him/her another seat. It happened to me on a Virgin Atlantic flight from lhr to ewr. The man next to me was incoherent, staggering drunk and had his own supply of alcohol which he managed to stagger to the bathroom with every couple of hours. He also appeared to be taking pills. He was leaning all over me and drooling. I attempted to push him off and keep him on his side of the seat, but it wasn't easy. The flight attendant told me that it was not possible that he was drunk as they were monitoring alcohol intake and that the plane was full anyway and there was nothing they could do. I suffered thru it for 8 hours. I didn't dare make a fuss myself for fear of reprisals by the flight attendants who were openly annoyed by my complaint. When I wrote to Virgin Atlantic about it, I never heard from them. I don't plan to fly them again.

AnthonyGA, Tony actually had a blood test, which is why it took 2 hours for him to return to the airplane.

No, it wasn't ego or power on Tony's part. As DKay stated, &quot;...If you call that power-- whatever...&quot; I say Ditto.

Monica ((F))