My daughters played competitive soccer, my son was on the varsity football team; their summers were equally compromised. So I do understand. We did not plan vacations during the school year. We just didn't.

Your daughters are 16, they will be off this roller coaster soon enough. Until then choices will obviously have to be made. If you have waited 30 years to see the Spanish Riding School then either go now without them, or wait a few more years. I wish I could be more sympathetic, but manipulating the school district for another vacation just seems wrong.

Thank you for your perspectives, everyone -- particularly those who had constructive suggestions rather than choosing to read half of what I wrote and bash accordingly.

Peace and tolerance. :-)

"Here, if you love music, you must be in marching band. There are no other options."
Thursdaysd, if it's like my daughter's high school, all students who play band instruments are actually required to also be in marching band.
But my daughter's high school band director doesn't monopolize so much of the kids' time as OP's seems to. They make a point not to schedule anything during Christmas or Spring Break for instance.

Bumble - Piano? Violin? Cello? Guitar? Private teacher?

I have seen the horses perform at the Spanish Riding School. Not life changing.

My daughter plays trumpet. Brass instrument and required to be in marching band. She actually enjoys the marching part, and again it's not all that time-consuming, so it's not a big deal for her. Most of the routines are learned in band camp in mid-August, before school starts in Fall, but that's required too, of course. She's also in jazz band, and of course, during school hours, they have regular music class for Band.

Of course, anyone playing stringed instruments or piano would not be required to be in marching band. But any instrument that would be in marching band - if you play it, you're required to be in marching band. It was like that when I was in high school too, in another town and state, and many many years ago, :) - I played violin so wasn't in marching band, but I was in color guard, had friends in band, and that's how I knew it was required of the brass/wind/some percussion musicians.
So when my daughter signed up for high school band to continue playing trumpet, I wasn't surprised about the marching band requirement. I wouldn't be surprised if most high schools require it. Face it, marching band isn't "cool" and how many kids would sign up on their own? :)

Oh, true, I've seen them too and, until it was mentioned, I didn't even remember I'd done it. Not the slightest bit "life-changing," though I guess if you were concerned that the Henri de Rivel bridle didn't fit quite right, or that Leonora's Colin Stuart boots seemed scuffed, or there was a tuft on the third jump, it could be quite alarming.

Bumble - must be another one of those American peculiarities like college "athletics" aka players on farm teams for the the pros pretending to be students. No such thing as marching bands where I went to school in England.

Visit the Lipica Stud Farm in Slovenia on another trip.... It's everything the Spanish Riding School offers and much, much more.

http://www.lipica.org/en/

I'm guessing some of the posters on this thread could play the tuba.

"And frankly, when forced to choose between a small-town school with circa-1950s thinking, and exploring the world for genuine learning, I hope my daughters will always choose to embrace a world view rather than narrow-mindedness"

They can't embrace a world vien in August. Is it too hot for their special little brains to function?

The OP's posts just drip with arrogance and an overarching sense of entitlement. The teachers are NOT your children's handmaidens. They are well-trained, overworked professionals. That some have been gracious enough to allow you to selfishly trample the rules doesn't mean you have carte blanche to go on doing it.

Regarding those life-changing horses -- go see them in Piber, Austria -- the farm is open year round and YES, that includes August. http://www.piber.com/en/

And FWIW, your "world view" seems to be conviently limited to Western Europe. If you want to expand their horizons even more, take them to South America. Or South Africa. Or Australia. Or New Zealand. In all of those places, it will be winter and the weather will be cooler. Last I heard, there was culture and history in those places too.

Dear Kandace,

You are right, peace and tolerance are called for here. Please give your poor (and probably overworked) small town teachers some peace, and teach your children some tolerance.

A trip in August will be memorable, especially since it will be very different from your children's other "once-in-a-lifetime" trip during the school year. It will also teach them the importance of being responsible members of society by following rules that are made to help society move along. Learning that our interests are not the center of the entire world is a major sign of maturity.

An August vacation will help your children mature more responsibly.

--Annie
(Former band mother and survivor of several warmly wonderful European Augusts)

Sheesh. It was never about my convenience. It was about the many diatribes here saying that August was an impossible month to go to Europe, and the many posters here who said only a knave would ever go to Europe in August.

I'm fine with August. It's an OK compromise.

I'm fine with (good) teachers. Heck, I married one -- who also supports us doing what we can to raise responsible young people, including travel, and yes, when it can be done within the rules (which I realize now it can) it should be. I might just point out -- again -- that we did not ever break rules; the school has a policy and forms on family vacations, and our last vacation (the only one of its magnitude in 25 years) was fully authorized and approved by administrators.

And yes, Europe is one of many places in this big, beautiful world I plan to take my daughters.

Peace and tolerance to YOU. Thank you for sharing your plethora of perspectives. :-)

<<Face it, marching band isn't "cool" and how many kids would sign up on their own?>>

Plenty of kids sign up on their own in our school, and throughout Pennsylvania, where it is not, as far as I have have ever heard, usually a requirement to join. As a matter of fact, in our school, 117 freely signed up this year, the largest number in many years. It's about more than the music. Marching band helps kids develop in so many ways that will help them later in life. Here is a good perspective:

http://www.amparents.org/blog/item/1...aches-our-kids

Is it cool? It is to the kids who are participating in it! To people, movies, media, etc. forming stereotypes, that sadly puts down these kids who are so invested in an important part of their lives.

But I still think it is unreasonable to make kids choose a full-time commitment for every single week of the entire year vs going on a wonderful family vacation and continuing to participate. They should be able to do both, not have to choose, not be penalized. Not allowed to skip a summer practice to go to the mall is reasonable. Requiring them to be at every single practice during the summer is not. Forcing a student to have to choose to withdraw from band or take a family vacation and fail is ridiculous!

<<Face it, marching band isn't "cool" and how many kids would sign up on their own?>>

Oh goodness, I didn't mean to offend anyone with that statement, sorry!
Fwiw, my daughter actually started trumpet lessons in middle school so she could be in the marching band in high school. She definitely would have signed up on her own.
Nonetheless, the stereo type of it being "nerdy" is there.

I agree that any single activity should not monopolize a student's time to the extent that they have no free time at all throughout the year. It's ridiculous and unnecessary. But in the OP's case, there does seem to be free time in late summer.
And, unfortunately, what should be, and what actually is, are often different. In this case, the student should be able to travel with her family when it's convenient for everyone. The reality, however, is different; and the solution is for her to re-evaluate her commitment to both travel and marching band. Not ideal, but some solutions aren't.

If there really is no 2-week period in an entire year completely free of marching band commitments/demands, I would be organizing other band parents to insist that one be instituted and universally implemented for all participants. It's possible that even the band teacher does not fully appreciate the extent of the commitments expected. Calendar it out. Talk it up with other parents -- how do they feel? If there are other parents who feel the expectations/demands are out of line, then approach the teacher with a request to identify a two-week commitment-free period -- or an option where if a student participates during the winter holidays, they are given a pass (with no guilt or pressure) during spring break -- or whatever. If the teacher genuinely isn't interested in a respectful negotiation -- take it up the chain. Otherwise, if your child wants to make the commitment, and you want to be supportive, I think you have to suck it up. Home schooling is a lot more work (and counterproductive -- is there a home schooled marching band??) than trying to constructively implement a more reasonable set of expectations.

"It is not just a riding school and they are not just horses.". Well, this is certainly something I agree with!

I wouldn't say it was life-changing for me, but I did dream of seeing them all my life, so it was a big thrill. DD and I saw the Morning Exercise with Music, instead of a bona fide performance, due to the days we were in Vienna. We also toured the stables, where you can see some of the horses in their stalls.

You could possibly visit the stud farm, if the riding school is closed. Although the winter facility is the most gorgeous, hostoric and architecturally-significant arena. It was wonderful to see the Lippizaners perform there.

Thanks, Tabernash2.

StCirq2, not that it's any of your business (and luckily my manners are far better than yours), but YES, one of my daughters is also an equestrian (and really, the Ann effing Romney comment? laughable; primitively communicated, but laughable). At the moment, my daughter is more active than I am, because our family resources are limited and we can only afford one person competing at a time.

You seem to have jumped upon a vastly inaccurate assumption of us. We are a farming family. We work HARD and make sacrifices day in and day out to save money a bit at a time for our rare getaways. I can count on one hand the number of times we've been off the farm for more than three consecutive days -- in 25 YEARS.

For those of you who were so quick to declare what is life-changing and what is not, how's that tolerance working for YOU? You have no clue what is meaningful to someone else, and if all you could do was comment on boots and hats and "jumps," then the real magic of the Lipizzaners was clearly lost on you. That would be like bashing an artist for purposefully scheduling a trip to Paris so he could see the Mona Lisa in person.

I do appreciate the good, constructive suggestions here, but by and large, what a snarky little disappointment. I certainly hope you behave better than this in your face-to-face interactions.

You can see wonderful Lippizzaners in Florida, near Seista Key. The farm, horse show, participants and viewing these amasing creatures down there is lots less expensive than Europe. Getting out of school is probably not the best idea and August??? Have been to France (north and south), Spain (south), Greece, etc in August and hot yes! Worth it??Yes!! Do it again?? Yes! The reason it was August was as a teacher my time off was out of my control and I never thought twice about it! Go,take the girls and have a great time, or go to Florida and experience the horses.

You can see Lipizzaners a lot of places, because they tour the US. I have seen them twice here.

But there is NO comparison to seeing the real thing, in their historic setting. Just saying that I understand the OPs wish to see them in Austria.

As a parent of two teenagers still at home, I struggle with this issue too. We get hit with higher ticket prices times four because we're limited to school breaks for travel. It used to be worse....our oldest is grown and on her own now. My girls are also very active in sports and extra-curricular activities, and the thought of having to keep all those assignments straight would just be too stressful for them. Plus, they're on the block schedule, so missing one week is really like missing two weeks.

This is where the beauty of homeschooling is so appealing. We homeschooled for three years when the girls were in elementary school and it was one of the best things I ever did for our family, although I was terrified initially. I don't think I'm smart enough (or have the patience) to teach high schoolers, but there are lots of on-line options. I really think schools should change their schedules so that there is a shorter summer holiday and more two or three week breaks during the rest of the year. We aren't an agrarian society anymore, and that long summer break is unnecessary, in my humble opinion. I've just come to the conclusion that there are some places my girls won't get to see until they're adults. I feel guilty about that because I've carried this list of places they must see around in my head for years, and it's just not going to happen.

For what it's worth, my husband would probably divorce me if I made him go back to Italy in August. We did it once and it was pretty hot and miserable. Austria would probably be fine in August, although I understand about wanting to see the Spanish Riding school and the Lippizans. I read all those Marguerite Henry books too!

My oldest was in band too. Her instructor and your daughter's band instructor must be related! The drop out rate from freshman to senior year is pretty high here! She left after her sophomore year and didn't miss it.

As a retired teacher, here's my two cents: traveling is a fabulous educational opportunity; however, teachers are held accountable for a curriculum adopted by their state/district and clearly defined standards must be met by their students. That is a teacher's responsibility. Unfortunately, when a student is absent and an independent study is implemented he/she misses the teaching and lessons that are the instructional core. That is critical to the student's learning and understanding of the subject at hand. Simply completing related assigned paperwork without the core instruction is meaningless and is no substitute for learning in the classroon.

I agree with many others who recommend for you to find a way to take your trips with your children during school vacations. Heaven knows there's more vacation time alloted to students than any job an adult posseses. Be flexible. And enjoy that trip!

Dear Kandace - I am sorry this thread turned into an attack on you. In farming, winter or the off season is sometimes the only time to travel. Risky business posting here sometimes. Luckily, you didn't post this in the Lounge!

MY
a farmer's wife, too.

OK, so let's compare the statements in this thread with those in another from the OP ("Critique trip plans, please", posted on Sep 29):

This one: "It's crushing, to me, that teachers cannot see the overwhelming value of kids going abroad"
The other one: "- daughters' must-sees are Europa-Park, Tropical Islands waterpark in Berlin and Neuschwanstein"

This one: "We are a farming family"
The other one: "I work at a zoo, so seeing zoos would be a big plus"

As the daughters' priority seems to be visiting theme parks, there is no reason to assume that this trip has any educational value which warrants taking them off school; and the OP should be aware that her statements could be construed to be contradictory. I second StCirq's and others' statements. Go to Europe, it certainly is worth the while. But do not jeopardize your daughters' education.

Geesh Phil. You must have a lot of time on your hands to pick apart Kandace's posts. She works at the zoo and husband farms. I am a banker and my DH farms. We are still farming families. It is not just a job but a way of life.

Everyone has to make choices in life. I have read all the posts, perhaps some are a bit harsh but there is a degree of inflexibility and entitlement in the OPs posts.

The main hindrance seems to be the demands of the band master/conductor/dictator.

So, a simple choice. Which is more important to you daughters? Band or travel?

Make the choice then move forward, no whining, no regrets.

Our grandchildren live in the UK. It would be great to treat them to low-cost, off season holidays but we believe scool come first. Not to mention UK schools are starting fine parents for taking kids out of school for holidays!

When our kids were younger, my folks lived in Florida 1500 miles away. We couldn't afford to fly so we'd take an extra day on either side of the week off they'd get in late February and drive down.
The girls are good students, and in our small school it wasn't a big deal. In the abscence note we'd always include whatever historical/educaitnal things we'd seen, 8th Air Force Museum, Eddison's house, Forts, Girls Scouts Founder's house, etc.
When they got older, we'd wait until one of the older ones got out of college in May and could watch the younger one, and the wife and I went off to Europe. Once the older two meet us in Germany where we were stationed, while the youngest stayed at friends.
As demonstrated throughout this thread, everyone has different opinions. My kids have always learned more on vacation than they would have in class. Numerous times my kids have brought in pics of historical sites that we've visited and the teachers have always been happy. Don't know if being retired military helps, we've been to a lot of fascinating historical spots.

So, they're your kids. If it's just a have fun vacation, then eh............if it truly is a chance to change their worldview, and this is your best shot, than have at it.

And me, I'd dump band...sounds like way too much time involved.

I'd dump the band teacher ;)

Kandace,

SOME parts of Europe are not good August vacation spots (Spain, Portugal, Southern France, Southern Italy, Greece, Turkey). SOME arts have their best weather in August (Scotland, Netherlands, the Baltic countries, Scandinavia, St. Petersburg). The rest can be best described as "bearable" or "not that bad".

With all due respect Kandace, I am quite sure you and your family are perfectly nice and are very much like many of us here. But your OP does come across with a whiff of entitlement and an attitude about the rigidity of teachers that did not sit right with many people. After reading through all of this, the biggest culprit in your planning seems to be the band teacher and the band program. I am surprised that your fellow parents have not lobbied the school administration for a reasonable period of break time in the summer schedule for the band families.

It does sound like you have only a few more summers of this if your girls are 16. Regardless, choices always have to made, and I still feel strongly that the unavailibility of the horses in Vienna in August should not trump the hoops you must go through with several teachers in their academic program to miss another week of the school year.

Good luck with your planning.

Have the kids quit the band and join the orchestra ! Stick to taking vacations during the kids' school holidays so they don't have to do school work during vacations and you don't have to supervise such work !!

a teacher who lived abroad for twenty years

Thanks, everyone. Apologies if I sounded "entitled." That was not my intent. I truly am trying to balance a lot of things, and as I've mentioned several times now, I'm happy to aim for August and just confront the band instructor, in large part because of the reassurances in this post that it's not the near-death-like experience intimated in other places on this forum.

And to Phil ... sigh. Poor Phil.

Kids' must-sees -- name me the teenager who would NOT want to visit the world's largest waterpark or Europe's best-known amusement park. Yes, those are high on their list. That is two days out of 16 or 17. And is Neuschwanstein not educational enough for you? I visited it back in the 1980s and came away having learned quite a bit about German history, geography, architecture and art. Or would you prefer the whole litany of what our daughters want to see *and* what our educational goals are for them through this trip? I'm developing that itinerary with my husband, who is a semi-retired teacher with a master's degree in education, and who I'm quite sure has a better grasp on educating young people than you do. Yes, we are doing two fun things that the girls have heard about. That hardly damns the remaining 15 days.

Farming -- yes, we are a farming family. However, as I'm sure many other people realize, very few families are able to live full-time on a farm without outside employment. So in addition to the farm, both my husband and I work. It means late nights, long hours and back-breaking work pretty much 7/365, sandwiched between our kids' schedules (and yes, our kids work the farm, too -- and one of them works at *another* farm during the summer as well).

Lipizzaners -- there is a HUGE difference between the American-owned Lipizzaners that tour the U.S. and Austria's Lipizzaners at the Spanish Riding School (who come to the U.S. only about every 20 years or so, in select cities, as thanks for American help during WWII -- though I'm sure you knew that already). I find it so odd that some people are quick to substitute one destination for another when they clearly are not subject matter experts in the area and do not seem to know or care much about it.

Again ... peace and tolerance, peeps. And thank you for the constructive comments and suggestions. Much appreciated.

" I'm developing that itinerary with my husband, who is a semi-retired teacher with a master's degree in education, and who I'm quite sure has a better grasp on educating young people than you do."

And this, Kandace, is a perfect example of a comment from you that gets you so much negativity in return. Perhaps you are directing this to one person, BUT you have heard from many people who are/were teachers, including me, who not only have a master's degree in education, have taught, raised children and have quite a fine grasp on educating young people. Starting with your slam against your own daughters' teachers who apparently don't get your master plan either, you apparently really don't want any advice, just support for your travel plan. And since it is not coming in positive waves. . . .

And fyi, my own teenagers had no interest in amusement parks when we traveled to Europe, so don't use that card either. Fine if yours do, but many do not.

Socaltraveler, I appreciate your comments, and you've given some great advice already. The comment in my last post about "the itinerary" was directed SOLELY toward Phil. Solely. Explicitly. Under the "Poor Phil" segue. It was not intended for you or anyone else. If I could go back and edit my post to add "For Phil only" in front of the two paragraphs about "Kids' must-sees" and "farming," I would.

I have huge respect for teachers, and our daughters have had some *incredible* teachers during their tenure. I have less respect for teachers who humiliate students in front of the class because administrators approved a leave ... or instructors who threaten to fail students for not attending extra-curricular practices that go year-round. But fortunately they are the tiny minority.

My point is that I do not believe Phil is an authority on education. You, as a teacher, would be, and I respect your point of view. Thank you.

You're welcome. But do tell me, why is the band teacher's harsh schedule so tolerated in your community? I would think that there are other parents who would like some summer vacation time. We once had to go up against a drama teacher who threatened to remove our son from a play for missing one rehearsal to attend one major track meet, so I do understand the frustration. Luckily for us the administration stepped in and negotiated a truce. Just curious.

The band teacher sounds passionate, however, he needs to learn some moderation. If he loses fine musicians due to his inflexibility, he will learn to make exceptions. I understand both sides of this coin. IMO, nobody really cares what your child will learn in Europe. That is a benefit to you and your family. The teachers are too overworked to care. Have a fun time. Staying in hostels is a great place to make friends.

I do agree the band teacher's expectations do sound over the top. Have you considered contacting some of the other band parents and seeing if a compromise to the schedule can be reached? I would try a "non attack" approach stating that your children would love to stay in band but also would like some much needed family time and asking if something can be worked out. When my son was in football, the team had two free weeks during the summer so all of the parents arranged vacation schedules around that time. It wasn't ideal but it was something.

I am sorry about my comment about the Lippizaners above -- it was pretty thoughtless. I did see them in Austria and was underwhelmed but then not everyone is impressed with sights I find amazing.

I quite agree with the person who said the Lippizans that tour the US are not the same Lippizans at the Spanish Riding School. There's a big difference.

As for the band instructor....I can offer this story....Practices seemed to be daily for my oldest daughter for what seemed like months and months. For some reason that I can no longer recall, the band was not able to practice right after school one week, so the kids had to be back on the field at 6 pm for practice until 8. I had two other children who were playing soccer with games or practice twice a week in two different places, hubby was out of town on business all week, and I could not, for the life of me, figure out how to deliver and pick-up three kids at three different spots in our large and rural county. So, I stupidly decided that since oldest daughter had been to band EVERY SINGLE DAY, whereas the other two only had soccer twice a week, oldest daughter would have to skip practice one night. She was fine with that. (Actually, I think she was exhausted.)The band teacher not so much. In fact, HE. WAS. LIVID. WITH. ME. So, Kandace, I sympathize. Thank goodness my other two children never wanted to pursue marching band. I'm still intimidated by that man...

Sorry for straying so far from the original topic. Please let us know what you decide to do regarding your trip.

Thanks. I've decided we will go to Europe in August and I'll just need to confront the band instructor. He is an incredible instructor -- if judged by his natural musical gifts and his dedication to his students. I think he is just very single-minded and does not realize that all the families cannot give up everything else in their lives to be in band. I would think that, as an instructor, *he* would like more time off than he gets, too. Kids can learn a lot from marching band, I just think they need lots of other experiences and opportunities and experiences, too.