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Bad Idea - Planning Travel w/Ignorant Friend (long vent)
Hi all. This is more a vent than an assassination of my friend's ignorance and character. :$ We're attempting to plan a trip to Italy in February for Carnival, but it's not going to work out for me the way things are...here's some background:
Even though I read Barb's posting (and bless her soul for having the good sense to not dump them!), I was already well underway in planning this trip with said friend. I was bemoaning the fact that I'm being left behind while my entire work group is going to a meeting in Venice, so I mentioned that I would even act as gofer to serve their every need, if I could only follow. She latches onto my moment of self-pity and proposes that we go to Venice together. Great...I've had good experiences traveling with other friends before, why not. We make a deal. She is silent for days, and I think nothing of it since it's in February, and I've got a sore throat. :& Fast forward a week; I've been looking at flights and hotels, and since I've always wanted to go see Carnival, I call her up and propose that we see at least a day or so of the celebrations, and enjoy ourselves. Next thing I know, she's already booked a hotel I suggested for the entire Carnival, <b><i>without</i></b> telling me. I tell her to chill out. As we're talking about travel dates on the phone, I'm looking up flights online. I then tell her about the flights I found for the dates we ended up agreeing on, which ranged in price from $600 to $1400 per person, depending on airline. The cheapest is Iberia Air, but they require that we have a 6 hour layover (Madrid) going, and an overnight layover (Barcelona) returning. Next thing I hear from her is "Oh, this is great! I don't mind the stopover, and we can stay a few days to explore." I tell her it's not that way, but if we want to stay and explore for longer, then we can look at our options on the site again and choose accordingly. I want to throw my head against a brick wall. :(( Thankfully (?) I don't hear from her for another few days. Not quitting while I'm ahead, I call her again. This time, I want to ask her what she has in mind for this trip, since I know this is her first trip to Venice, and I wanted to make sure we had the same goals going forward. Her wishes - eat, gondola, take pictures, see beach, go to Parthenon. <i>Huh?!?!</i> :O I tell her Parthenon is in Greece, she must be talking about the Pantheon. :? I'm asked what kind of travel dates I was talking about. <b>HUH?!?!</b> She thought I meant a date to take on travel. No, darling, it's just us, to which I hear a huge sigh of relief, as she said "Great! That means I can pick up cute Italian hotties!" <b><i>HUH?!?!?!</i></b> But she's in a long term relationship. So I backtrack. "What do you expect out of this trip?" I naively ask. "Oh, I just want to travel" Ok. Why do you want to travel to Venice. "Oh, I don't really want to travel to Venice. I would prefer Paris, but not with all that's going on in Paris right now." But have you seen the news? That's happening in the suburbs, not so much Eiffel Tower Paris. "Oh, but you never know." Ok. Fear understood and respected, and ignorance of friend is starting to grate on me. :L I then ask her to give me her European wishlist. France is the only one on her wishlist. She thinks France is a city, I tell her Paris is a city in France. A *-:) comes on in her head. I get the following list: Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Germany, and the Pyramids in Egypt. Fine, at least we're narrowing down the field somewhat. What do you want to see in each particular country? France - Notre Dame, the Louvre. Italy - cream puffs, gelato, gondolas, Parthenon, beach. @-) Greece - everything. Cyprus - sounds interesting. Germany - isn’t that the place with a lot of Disney castles? Plus, she hears it’s nice. Egypt - pyramids. I ask her if Venice is where she’d really like to spend her time. No, Venice is not her first choice, Paris is. I suggest we plan a trip to Paris, but again, the fear of the riots (did I mention she’s a trained psychotherapist from Columbia U?). I ask her if she’d really want to go to Venice. Yes. Why, I ask naively...”Because no one ever wants to travel with me. Everyone always has an excuse, be it not enough time or not enough money. You sounded like you wanted to go and travel, and I’ve never been to Europe before, so I wanted to go with you since you know what you want to do. In the end, all I want to do is eat and take pictures.” I bite my tongue and hit my head against brick wall. #o I ask her how much she’s willing to spend on this trip. She tells me about $1500, but if pressed $2000, and would prefer to use her miles for an airline ticket, would get me my ticket since after I helped her with her hotel portion, it would effectively even out. In fact, she’s already taken the initiative to reserve our tickets already! I’m thinking in my head, <i> shouldn’t we have discussed this earlier?</i> She keeps mentioning that she has no intention of buying Louis Vuitton bags, so she’ll easily keep within her budget (there are other Italian brands than Louis Vuitton!). Then she mentions again that she would really like to pick up a cutie Italian for a fling, which I will have a problem with if she brings her fling to our room since we’re sharing (and I’m not a voyeur, nor am I willing to be put out if they want some “privacy” in the middle of the night when I’m trying to get my rest - this has happened to a friend before!). I try to get her back on track, and ask what is important to her on this trip - I get food, photographic opportunities, Carnival for a few days since I can’t go the whole time, and if it’s difficult to travel to other places from Venice with all the gondolas. 8| Anyway, I ask her to go to a library, bookstore, or surf online, and figure out what she’d like to do before we commit one penny to this trip. She tells me she doesn’t need to do any of that so long as I know what I want to do, which doesn’t sit well with me. Basically, she wants to tag along on my trip, but she will make uninformed suggestions along the way. Did I mention that our mutual friends have already warned me of severe whining and random incomprehensible freak-out sessions? b( I know I should run while I still can, and I will. To spare her feelings, I will allow her a chance to research and maybe pull her own weight. If I hear nothing by this weekend, our trip is off, and I will travel solo. [-X I’d much rather enjoy myself than be a charity to someone who no one will travel with (by her own accord). After all, it is my vacation, as selfish as I may sound at this point. [( |
You sound like a prime candidate for solo travel. With friends like that, you will learn to love it! If you allow her to tag along, be sure she books her own hotel rooms.
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From what you describe, I agree with Holly_uncasdewar, you are better off travelling alone. Your friend is pretty confused about the places she wants to visit and is pretty fickle as well it appears. I would think if this friend went along with you, it wouldn't feel like a happy vacation for you.
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mcnyc,
if you continue and have this trip with her, you'll be ripe for a therapy. will you take her as your therapist? if yes, dump her right away, if not, dump her right away also. |
O*M*G* she sounds like the epitome of blondeness (no offense to blondes meant since I am one.)
I'd stay home before I'd travel with her. |
Well in the interest of us Fodorites who enjoyed Barb's tale, I think you should go with her so when we're bored in February we can look forward to your trip report. Kidding.
Seriously, I think what I might do in this situation is a compromise between taking her and dumping her. First, I'd plan what I would do if I were to go solo - pick the dates, the flights, and the hotel you want. Then tell her this is what you are doing and if she'd like to come along you'd enjoy the company, but this is the trip you are taking this winter. If she wants to go to Cyprus or Paris, you'll consider it some other year. Do YOU want to go just to Venice, or would you like to add in somewhere else also? I'd still pick the destination on you own though, without her input. If YOU want would prefer to share a room to keep costs down that's one thing but otherwise I'd suggest you each getting your own room. If you do share, make sure she knows any flings will have to occuur somewhere other than your room. Then I'd explain to her that even though you'll be together alot, when you travel you split up with your travel companion numerous times throughout the trip for a few hours so you can each do what you want. If she knows this going into it you can't feel guilty when you need time alone. |
I like Isabel's idea. Make your own plans and see if she's agreeable to them. If not, go solo!
Monica ((F)) |
I'm confused about the original purpose of the trip. Didn't you say it is a business trip, but that you asekd to tag along. If it's a business trip, isn't the location set, and isn't the employer paying for airfare and the hotel during the meeting or business portion of the trip? If you are now included on the business trip, can't you just go together for the business portion, and then when it's over, part company and take your own solo tended vacation, to places you choose, at your expense?
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Very good advice from Isabel.
((I)) |
To back up what Isabel said, you are leaving too many questions open-ended, and you are not taking the lead. While normally I would advocate consensus, clearly, once she started booking hotels without clearance, this was not going to be a case of mutual decision-making. So you need to say simply, "here are the dates I am going, here is where I will be staying, if this is okay with you, you are welcome to join me. However, I will be booking my ticket independently - if it should happen you wish to take the same flight, I'll leave it up to you and we'll coordinate our seating with the airline after you buy your ticket. This way, if you wish to use a different airline to use up miles, then I will meet you in Venice. However, either way, neither of us will be held accountable for financial decisions the other one makes independently." (and if she can't see the logic of that last rule now, she won't later.)
You say she has 'already booked the tickets' and from your end, you maintain you never authorized this. Starting right now, if anything is bought without hearing from you by email (in other words, in writing) you must stand firm and leave her to pay for her own follies. I wouldn't care if she were a master planner, I wouldn't allow her to undertake to make financial commitments on my behalf. As for the hotties, sounds like you had best start booking your own separate rooms, so that you can have your privacy (and she hers, for whatever she plans to do.) |
Honestly, I think you're setting yourself up, and her, for a terrible trip. Stop the presses right now and abandon ship (mixed metaphors right and 2nd right). You're already exasperated with her, and you haven't even boarded the plane -- it can only get worse. If I were your close friend, I'd say get out while the getting's good because this person's not going to improve and the friction of close-quarters travel will destroy any good relationship. If I were HER best friend (your proposed companion), I'd say you already have a bad attitude toward her, and that's not going to improve, esp. the minute there's a dispute or a hitch in the plans.
This is an ill-fated trip, and you need to not wait to see what her next move or comment is going to be. Take charge of yourself, and bail. |
Save yourself some misery and DO NOT travel with this person! If she is this bad now, think of how horrible she will be once she is out of her usual comfortable environment. This does not sound like someone flexible enough to "roll with the punches" if there is whoops along the way. And in Italy there is frequently a "whoops" somewhere. She may actually freak out!
Travel can be stressful and requires a sense of humor and adventure. This person is behaving oddly at baseline. With her strange expectations, she WILL be disappointed. Big warning sign! |
I'm disagree... I'm not sure this is a disaster in the making at all.
This person doesn't really care where they go, doesn't have big list of itinerary must-dos, has enough cash for the trip, seems willing to take some actions (reserving tentative flights and hotel) in your own words "basically she wants to tag along on my trip". For me I don't see a problem with that as long as YOU can come to terms with it. Not everyone is a big planner, avid researcher, or has a life long list of places they want to go in the world. She just wants to come along, see something, go somewhere, and eat some good food. As long as she is good to her word about doing what you say, she sounds like a perfect companion to me! The one thing I would change is to get two separate single rooms at your hotel. If she can manage to pick up an "Italian hottie" more power to her. That said, if you truly want to travel solo and are just to chicken to tell this woman that, well that is your problem not hers. If you don't want to go on a trip with her (she herself said no one else will travel with her!) you must tell her so, the sooner the better. |
Ignorant is such a harsh term, especially when referring to a true friend.
Be saint and "teach" the poor lost soul some of your vastly superior wisdom and travel smarts. You will feel highly enlightened and gracious and she will treasure this kind gesture for a lifetime. Get your own room just in case you snag your own hot italian "momma's boy." |
mcnyc
I think you're being very harsh on your friend. This morning I booked a trip to Duseldorf for Easter. I know nothing about the city (yet!) and it's certainly never been on my wishlist, but I had some airmiles to spend and the flights and hotel were at the right price, so I thought "why not?" I'll do some research beforehand and I'm sure I'll have a great time exploring somewhere new. I'm looking forward to eating, drinking and taking lots of pictures, but I won't be looking for a cute German "hottie", since my DH will be with me :-) |
My opinion is that you should run for the hills. ;) Go alone and be able to do and see what you want. It sounds like the two of you have different ideas in mind of what you want to accomplish on this trip.
Or, as Isabel said, you can go with her and give us some great trip report reading when you return. :D |
"If she can manage to pick up some Italian hottie, more power to her."
I knew I should never have watched that movie "Thelma and Louise", still less read that book, "Looking for Mr. Goodbar." |
There are two sides to every story....either way you should both travel alone...
Good Luck ;-) Muck |
RUN, mcnyc, RUN!!!
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I read your vent, then went back and just quickly skimmed the emoticons only-and they express the following strong message:
Whether or not you go to same same destination at the same time, and see each other while there, inder NO circumstances should you share a room. And you should both make your own arrangements. If you know much more than she does-give her some website information and let her find her way. If she's a Columbia trained psychotherapist she must have decent research skills anyhow. It seems you are already entangled in a clear "passive aggressive toxic relationship" from the get go. No judgement, nobody's fault, there are probably two sides to it, but that's my take. |
Winter Olympics in Italy 2006
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Be nice, just meet up, and have a few happy days together.
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I'm glad I'm not in your shoes!
I'd vote for not going with her. Too much drama already! |
LOL :D Poor mcnyc!! It all sounds like a nightmare in the making or better for Fodorland, a really good funny horror trip report !!
I don't know about your 'friend' sounding blonde..I am one too and hope I am not that dopey sounding..but I do agree with the passive/aggressive idea. She will let you do everything, then have the freedom to blame you for everything she doesn't like. I have an excellent Travel Companion, but in this case, if I had to choose her or going alone, Alone would be so much more preferable. Good luck, darlin! ((F)) Scarlett |
Hi all: Obviously, this was a post after the most trying of conversations. My apologies that perhaps a lot of things didn't make sense w/o more detail, but it was already a long post (and this place not really a venting forum). Please know that I constantly kept in mind that this would be my friend's "trip of a lifetime," of her 20s. It was important to me to make it work for her sake, but sadly, because I value the friendship, I cannot move forward with this trip. Believe me, I'm far from passive-aggressive, but I'm not mean-spirited either.
This trip was born of my desire to have followed my group to Venice, but I'm the low woman on the Totem pole, so I stay home. Fine. We all whine to friends every once in a while, that's what I did. I did mention during that phone call that I'll just go to Venice on my own next year, maybe for Carnival. That's when she proposed us going together. Friends in my group do this all the time. Never any harm before, in fact, it brought our friendships closer, a nice perk of the trips. She reads mostly travel books. She plans dream itineraries all the time, subscribes to travel magazines, constantly talks of traveling somewhere, looking for ways to put her plans to good use. How was I supposed to know she'd be clueless when the time came to actually move those plans along? When she told me she booked the hotel and flight, I asked her to cancel both. While I understood her excitement, I told her that if she wanted to go somewhere else in addition to Venice, now is the time to talk, before money is invested. I even suggested that when time came, she should book using her miles (she can't afford to buy tix & pay hotel), while I purchase, but it was in talking to her that I found out she wanted to shadow me. Completely. As in same flights. No problem with that, I've shadowed friends, and had them shadow me. When I mentioned that I wanted to roam around and explore, she wondered which strappy heels she should bring, and if she needed to know how to swim (I am not kidding!). I gave her an idea of where I wanted to go: Burano (what do they make there? why would anyone want to see someone making lace? that's so boring!), Murano (like in Murano glass? glass is glass, one crash and it's done for), roaming the streets of Venice (is there anything interesting in those streets? are they dark and scary?), checking out churches (yawn, see one church, seen them all), see the Peggy Guggenheim museum (there's modern art there? boring. i can draw a circle in cement and you can call it art). I told her she should spend time exploring by herself, or maybe join a walking tour, but she insisted on doing whatever I was doing, as long as she could take pictures. In order to give her ideas on what she would be interested in, I made 2 dates to meet up at the bookstore (and another time, the library) nearest her house w/an agreed goal to peruse guidebooks. She ended up wanting to see the latest chick-lit section (all 3 occasions). Another time, we met in a cafe and she brought up Venice - she wanted to know how Venice is in Feb. I tell her (cold, possible rain, like NY); she made faces at me and talked about shopping our way through Italy "if we can only stay out of Louis Vuitton shops" (great! it's out of my $ range!). I mentioned maybe she'd also want to go to Florence or Milan to shop; she wondered why we'd do such a silly thing. The list is endless. Sorry to offend, Xenos. My other friends and I choose a spot on the map every year, and we save throughout the year to make that trip. Granted when we're choosing the spot we may only have a general idea (sometimes, not even an inkling), but we do diligently read up and research for our trip so we're better informed, get together for dinners to share our newfound knowledge and plan our own itineraries. I didn't expect this out of this friend, but I thought there would have been a little more thought than just being proactive in booking a hotel & flights without mutually agreeing to some of the travel details (important if she wanted to shadow me because I do want to go elsewhere). She should have used that extra energy to research her shopping/photography interests, not book flights. And my apologies for offending anyone (btw, she's not blonde, and I don't ever pretend to have superior travel knowledge). It was a vent of frustration. I'm sure she has her own side of the story to tell, and I'm open to suggestions (even if it's telling me to chill out and be thankful I can travel, which I am!). But sorry Isabel and Statia, no funny horror stories for you in Feb! ;) |
mcnyc, I can sympathize! How about this, though....if you can't get out of the trip, why don't you arrange it so that she does get her wish to shadow you for most of the trip....but you have a few days at the end of the trip by yourself? It MAY mean that you'll have to escort her to the airport to go home, but it's a small sacrifice for the sweet, sweet solitude at the end of your trip. (Believe me, it's better to have the solitude at the end of the trip than at the beginning. Been there, done that.)
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Just returned from a trip with similar friends ... we are not likely to speak again for a very long time ... go it alone
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When she rushed and booked the flights and hotel, was that only for herself or for both of you?
Since she has such an avid armchair interest, reading travel magazines, etc. is there any chance you could encourage her to go on her own? I notice your phrases "She should have..." or "I didn't expect this..." and gently suggest that the problem is that you two aren't friends but more acquaintences who don't know each other very well. |
It sounds like your friend saw this as a 'friendship' trip in which the two of you simply shared adventures of whatsoever nature, while the diversions of the place you visited took second place. I've done trips like that(or parts of trips like that) and enjoyed them immensely, because I made up my mind in advance to donate the time and related expenses to the cause of the friendship(s) and nothing else. What we did, where we went, who took what room, etc. hardly mattered, because my principal objective - spend time with my friends - was being met.
On the other hand as I suspect you've figured out, if your personal objective of the trip is, in the main, to do serious sightseeing, and if serious amounts of money and time are at stake, then the trip takes on a more 'business' like aura (even if in fact it's a 'leisure' trip) --- and you know what they say about mixing business with pleasure. It's one of the reasons why I grew so alarmed over the booking of the air tickets. The amount involved is for most people too much not to be taken very seriously, i.e., in a very 'business' like way, and casual arrangements such as your friend was making -- with sketchy communication, etc. etc., just won't do. If I have understood what you've been trying to say, you are trying to get up the courage to point out to your friend that your objectives are just too incompatible for the two of you to travel together this time, yes? If so, then hard though it is, I think you are doing both of you a favour. |
p.s. if you do go thru with it, please post a trip report! I realize it may get frozen as Barb's excellent thread did, but it's a good educational experience to share........
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I just got back from Rome - Florence - Venice. Actually, by the time we got to Venice I think pretty much all we did was eat, shop, see the sights, and take photos. LOL. We had a lot booked in the 1st 2 cities.
It sounds like an interesting trip. I have friends like that too. I am a total planner so it drives me nuts. Also, complaining would suck! You ought to decided exactly what you can live with from her and if you can't handle her for your vacation... go for the solo trip. Also, the reason behind the trip was quite confusing. And, I'm completing my doctorate to be a psychotherapist and we aren't all nuts! |
Seafox - my sympathies. Did you also go with someone or turned out to be a completely different person on the trip!
My experience in 1998 with an acquaintence left me longing to be home. I found out she did: A)NOT like going up or down escalators and stuck her head in the back of my shirt or walked the stairs. B)Could NOT shower - only bath. C)When bathing never took her underwear off. D)On the bus tours always went to sleep while we all viewed wine cellars etc. E)Maintained getting to the airport 30 minutes prior to departure was enough time. And so the list goes on.......if only I had known!! |
mcnyc--I am so glad you posted a second explanation of the details. Since you have had great success in the past traveling with friends, you obviously know this time it's not gonna work. I sincerely hope you can find a good way to back out graciously. Of course, the statement, "This just isn't going to work right now" might be enough.
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Have you actually seen her diploma from Columbia??
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I have no idea why I feel the need to correct this, maybe because it's been mentioned a couple of times, but Louis Vuitton is a FRENCH brand, not Italian.
From reading your posts it doesn't even seem that you like this girl very much. So I can't imagine you would still consider traveling with her. All of her annoyances will be multiplied times ten on a vacation, even if she does just go along to the places you'd like to see. Bag this trip now or one of you may not make it back from Venice alive. |
Hi all. I upset her tremendously this morning when I told her I couldn't go on this trip w/her. All she did was weep & wonder why no one would travel w/her.
I gently reminded her of her end of the deal, to go look at any book (I even let her borrow mine a week ago, it’s a veritable picture book), and point to 1 place and 1 food that looked interesting to her . This morning, I gave her my choices: the Doges Palace and cuttlefish w/polenta, she told me she hadn’t looked in the book yet, and can’t find it. She then asked why in the world I’d be interested in cuttlefish and polenta (because I am). I was as diplomatic as possible. I basically explained that reserving both our tickets w/o agreeing to flight times irked me. Reserving our hotel w/o talking about budget and # of days was also very troublesome to me. That she doesn't seem to care to hear about Venice bothered me because I know she'll be bored and will whine & complain. I then reminded her it’s something I don’t tolerate at all, and after an episode I might plot her fall into a canal. I told her none of this would bother me if we were just meeting up, not together the entire time (she staunchly refused to do any walking alone or with tour groups). I told her in the end I will probably throw away my list and roll with the punches depending on weather and stamina, but it didn’t seem to me that she had an open mind or a sense of adventure for that, especially with her comments on what I wanted to see. I mentioned this as the reason I asked her to look at books and point to just 1 thing she found interesting. My wish list was not iron-clad, and I was open to going to other cities instead of Venice since it was her first trip abroad. She said she was just trying to be helpful (of course) and didn’t think I would cancel the trip on her. She said it seemed like I wanted to go so badly that she’d share expenses with me so it would be cheaper travel for her, plus everyone comes back with stories on how much fun it was to travel w/me *blush*, she wanted to go too – because I have such patience. And although what I mentioned did sound rather boring to her, she was just joking w/her comments. Too bad it was a joke gone wrong. She stays, I go. Some of you may think I’m unreasonable, but I’m really not. This is someone I've taken 1-day flights w/along the east coast just to keep her company while she traveled to her grad school interviews (she whined to each of us incessantly to go with her until I gave in, I paid my own flights). I had to herd her into planes on time and get her to appointments w/o her getting lost in cities she knows well. Fine, the things I do for friends. This trip is one thing I cannot do at this time. Not with her. Even with all the sobbing. |
Oh, Kimberly1881, I don't think psychotherapists are crazy at all. She was like this before. ;)
I really do feel bad for my friend, just not bad enough to go on a trip with her. I already went on a stressful trip (lost luggage, complaining uncle, sick dad), I don't want to start off the year with another one. |
I don't think you are unreasonable, but simply can't understand how the plans got as far as they did when you clearly do not want to travel with this person, actually don't seem to like her at all. I don't get your connection to her... if I thought someone was Ignorant, I would not consider them a Friend (as to your post title).
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You are not being unreasonable. Please tell yourself that eight times.
This is a seriously disturbed person, and as you have discovered, there just isn't anyway you can be responsible for her happiness. First, you cannot be responsible for ANYONE ELSE's happiness and second, she can't really be happy, not matter what you do. |
Oh my - what can I say. Let me think .... GO SOLO!!
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