Backpacking Europe in the Winter
 

Hi!

This message consists of:
My travel plans, questions on whether to by a Eurorail pass or flights, and questions on proper attire for winter in Europe

I am an American planning on traveling through all parts of Europe from December 26th to mid-February. I will start my journey in Lisbon with my girlfriend, and travel through Spain and France. Those are my initial plans, and I hope to do this within 2 weeks. After the two, I have no idea where I'm going or what I'll be doing.

I need help deciding whether to by a Eurorail pass or to plan to just by airplane tickets. If I were to do the latter, I am afraid of needing to pay check-in bag fees. This brings me to my next question: for a month and a half of traveling, what size backpack should I purchase? I was looking to by a 55 liter, but my friend will let me borrow his larger 85 liter. Should I borrow his backpack, or is it too big?

Finally, what shoes should I bring along? I was thinking water-proof hiking boots and a pair of sneakers. What are your thoughts?

Thanks!!

I need help deciding whether to by a Eurorail pass or to plan to just by airplane tickets>

Unless you give what specific itinerary you are pondering no one can tell - but trains do go everywhere and there are many overnight trains such as in Spain and France - cover loarge distances at night and save on the night in a hotel to boot!

For 2 weeks in Spain and, Portugal and France take the train - if you want then say head up to Amsterdam vis Paris then from there fly to Greece.

But with such a large time frame you can take trains from city to city and overnight trains say from southern France to Paris or in Spain like from Seville to Barcelona or Lisbon to Madrid or the French border at Hendaye - if you do such travels by train then perhaps a Eurail Select railpass could be your best ticket - are you under 26 - if so the Eurail Select Youthpass is much cheaper.

If you do the Eurail Select (Youth or not) Pass you can have it valid in Portugal, Spain, France and Benelux (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg as one country for this purpose) - cheaper than a Global Eurailpass - a flexipass good for an overall time frame of two months but you select your unlimited travel days as you go along.

If taking overnight trains you put the next day's date on - thus you can travel from 7 pm one night thru the following day's midnight - take a night train from Lisbon to the French border and then gthe pass is valid to go anywhere in those countries the next morning - you can cover a lot of ground and use just one day on a pass.

Anyway some great sources for European train trip planning: www.budgeteuropetravel.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.seat61.com.

One thing for sure you do not want to buy train tickets as you go along - walk up fares can be dauntingly steep - if not doing a pass, which allows you to chose which trains to take once there - be sure to pre-book weeks in advance for a specific train on a specific day discounted tickets (which typically may not be changed nor refunded - but such tickets are sold in limited numbers and can sell our weeks/months before the train.

A couple of notes:

You can;t see Portugal, Spain and France in 2 weeks. You can see 4 cities - 5 if you really rush - but more than that is just going to be a tour of rail stations.

Not sure why you need a back pack at all versus regular luggage. Backpacks are very easy to steal from (thieves just cut through the back and take what they want while you are wearing them) and are a pain to haul around on trains.

As for clothing - you need to adapt for the weather where you are going - if the mountains or northern/central europe you need to be ready for cold and sleet or snow - they have a real winter. Portugal and Spain temps tend to be more moderate - but there is skiing even in the mountains in southern Spain and Madrid is on a high plateau and snow in winter is perfectly possible.

Suggest you get a good map, look at some guide books to figure out what you want to see and how long it will take and look at bahn.de for realistic train schedules for all of europe. (The schedule won;t be the same as when you're there but the amount of time will be realistic.)

To figure out if a pass will make sense for you, you need to compare with costs for an actual itinerary.

>> traveling through all parts of Europe<<

You are essentially talking 6 - 7 week. You can't see '<i>all</i> parts' of Europe in that short a time.

If you just mean the 5 countries tagged you can do it (though you'll need to take a few flights since some of them are far apart). But if you really mean all over Europe, then what other countries are you considering?

I think the OP means he knew he wanted to start with Lisbon, Spain and France, and then for the rest of his time, wanted to go all over Europe. Or as much as possible, I guess. That's 6 weeks. You just have to pick some countries you are most interested in and that make sense. I'd think the first part (Lisbon, Spain and France) should take up at least 3 weeks. Of course you could spend more depending on how many cities in his country you want to see. IN fact, if it's only Lisbon, sure you make only want 4-5 days there, but I'd reserve at least 10 days each for Spain and France. So that's about 4 weeks total. Then you have 2 weeks, you can add 1-2 other countries. If you end up in Paris, you could add the Netherlands and Belgium. Or maybe even Germany. none of that sounds so appealing in winter, though, but it's up to you. You could go to Italy instead, that's not a bad idea. Or you could go from France to England. If you wanted to see it, who knows.

As for backpacks, if you can get by with the smaller one, of course do it. The smaller the better. I would think you could get by with a 55 l as that is about the size of a 22" suitcase, I think. It will be tight for 6 weeks in winter especially, but if you can, great. An 85 liter pack may be a bit big, though (that's about the size of a 29" suitcase), something in the middle might be good.

I don't know about shoes, only two pair for 6 weeks isn't a lot but if you can do it, again, great. I hope those sneakers are pretty substantial, though.

This trip covers the midwinter period in Europe and you're going to have to be selective in where you go. Resort areas in the countries you mention will be largely closed at that time and the odds are that you will need to stick to towns and cities.

The key clothing-wise is layers:take what suits where you're heading for, which is the first thing to do. Most airlines won't allow large backpacks to be used as carry on luggage, so you'll have to check it in most cases.

Lay out your itinerary first, then decide what you'll need to wear, especially in respect of what standard of accommodation you'll use. Hostelling doesn't demand dressing up and even good hotels don't mind jeans and trainers (sneakers) these days.

If you're intending to do some hiking, then be careful of where you go as conditions can change quickly on hills and mountains.

First of all, thank you all for the quick replies and thanks for the site suggestions, i'll check them out. I want to backpack since that is part of the lure of coming in the first place -- almost as a wonderer.

Allow me to be a little more specific, since I was a little vague to start. I plan on traveling with my girlfriend from Lisbon, Madrid, Barcelona, San Sebastian, Bordeaux, and Paris. From there I plan to meet a few of my European friends in Amsterdam. From Amsterdam, my friend will take me to his home in Hamburg then we will go to Berlin. At this point, I have no idea where I will go. I assume at this point it will be around January 20th or 25th, roughly. From here on I will have about two weeks and would like to go to Budapest and Prague, possibly Copenhagen.

Tentative timetables:
Lisbon (12/26-12/28)
Madrid (12/28-1/1)
Barcelona (1/3-1/5)
San Sebastian (1/5-1/7)
Bordeaux (1/7-1/9)
Paris (1/9-1/12)

As of here, I am not sure as the next week of plans is dependent on my friends in Europe, but as mentioned we will most likely head from Paris to Amsterdam and from Amsterdam to Hamburg, Hamburg to Berlin, Berlin to Copenhagen, Copenhagen to Budapest, Budapest to London). The bellow timetable is very tentative and open for suggestions. If there are must do's during winter in europe, please let me know.

Amsterdam (1/12-1/15)
Hamburg (1/15-1/17)
Berlin (1/17-1/20)
Copenhagen (1/20-1/23)
Budapest (1/23-1/27)

Should I add more time in each city, or add more cities?


So this is where my confusion comes into play: will the Eurorail suffice? And if so will it be cheaper?

Secondly, are there any specific suggestions to shoes/boots to wear?

Thanks!!

"Should I add more time in each city, or add more cities?"

If you want to see anything of any of these places, you need to add more time in each place. You have forgotten to figure in your travel time. It will take at least a half a day and often a full day to get from one place to another (figuring from checking out of one hostel and into the next). So if you spend two nights in a place, you will have one day to explore; if you spend three nights, you'll have two days to explore.

So it appears that you have one day in each of the places you've mentioned. And remember, it will be dark early in many of these places at that time of the year, so you won't have a lot of hours of daylight to explore.

Take a look at www.weatherbase.com for historical weather patterns.

Shoes:

Sneakers will get ruined fairly easily in unexpected rain (and be an nuisance to carry around wet). Hiking boots are going to be unsuitable for some walking surfaces and restaurants. Also just too heavy after a while. You will feel it.

What you really need is at least one really really comfortable pair of waterproof shoes with very very good traction on the soles. This will be crucial in Lisbon -- your first stop, where you don't want twist and ankle or fall. You need anti-slip shoes for the very slippery, steep streets of Lisbon.

If you think you need another pair of shoes, especially to deal with snow and ice in colder places, please bear in mind you are not going hiking anywhere. You are doing urban walking on icy, snow streets. If you have a good shoe store near you, pay it a visit and talk to some people who really know something about shoes. Sports shoes might be good, but not necessarily hiking books.

I would give up on the idea on the idea a backpack is romantic. It is probably very useful for the kind of trip you are taking, but you need to figure out where you are going to be doing some laundry and budget time for that -- plus pick a backpack big enough to get you to that first laundry load (but no bigger!)

Lastly, you are traveling at an exceptionally difficult travel period for Europe. You start out with the holidays -- which mean mayhem at transportation points and a lot of things being closed -- and then you very quickly start getting into the bad weather window where it is typical for Europe to get some spate of travel disrupting storms. It would be amazing if the six weeks you are traveling saw no weather related-travel disruptions.

I suggest that you look very closely at the reasons you are going to Portugal and Spain during the holidays and figure out if what you want see there is open, whether that is sights or restaurants or what have you. (Might be. Don't know. But don't assume.) The holidays in Spain last until Jan 6. If most of the things you want to do are going to be closed, drop the destination.

Second, I would try to put some air and buffers into your tight schedule so you can do some laundry, adjust for weather delays and allow for some serendipity for your lark. That means aiming a fewer fixed destinations so you have time to take a day trip or something unexpected or just hang out with new friends who may want to show you something you otherwise never would have thought to choose on your own.

was looking to by a 55 liter, but my friend will let me borrow his larger 85 liter. Should I borrow his backpack, or is it too big?>

If taking trains smaller is better - one tactic I have with a heavy backpack when staying only a night or so in a city is to leave my heavy bags in a station locker, just taking light essentials to my hotel/hostel, etc. And many lockers cannot accommodate the larger packs - less is indeed more in many ways - even on crowded trains wading thru congested aisles can be a problem and finding space in overhead luggage racks problematic with the bigger packs.

I witnessed a young gal once in Nice's train station get her way too hevy bag out of a locker and after putting it on actually fell backwards on her rear - lighter is better in many ways - you can buy what you will need once there - do not take the kitchen sink with you.

The old adage: Pack your bags then empty half of it and leave it home - another - 'bring twice as much money and twice as less baggage.

If you enjoy carrying your possessions on your back, then by all means take a backpck. I'm not too keen on doing that when hiking. For cities, I prefer a rolling ( carry on size ) suitcase.

The right size of a backpack really depends on the person wearing it. I've seen big men carrying giant backpacks without any problems. I'm a small woman and prefer something much smaller and lighter.

Borrow your friend's backpack for a day. Pack it full of everything you think you will need to bring. Put it on. Walk around with it on for a couple of hours. Walk up and down two flights of stairs with it, like you may have to do in a cheap hostel. Take it off and lift it over your head, like when putting it in an overhead bin on a plane.

If you can do those things without problem, ok.

If you can't, you should get a smaller backpack. Or a small wheeled bag.

The suggestions above are good but don't go far enough. Walking up two flights of stairs is nothing. Walk up ten (seriously - you might not have to climb 10 flights all at one time, but in the course of a day you will - or more.)

Lifting an 85 liter backpack won't help cause it won't be carry on size for flights. Look at the fees for checked baggage on some of the cheap intra European airlines (like Ryan Air or Easy Jet). See how much you can get into the 55 liter size. It's not just clothes. Are you bringing a laptop, a camera, lenses, phone, chargers, kindle, etc. Clothes are the easy part actually - bring layers, get silk long underwear (tops and bottoms).

Is money a concern here at all? Cause all that moving around is going to cost. If you are staying with friends or in hostels or inexpensive hotels, the daily cost won't be that bad, but all those train/plane trips - and don't under estimate the cost of getting from airports to city centers when you are figuring costs.

Take it off and lift it over your head, like when putting it in an overhead bin on a plane. >>

YOu won't even be allowed to carry on something that size, so that part is irrelevant. There are no planes or trains most likely where you will be able to store something that big in the overhead racks. It will have to be checked and in trains, go on the floor/end storage area. And I don't agree that you will have to climb 10 flights of stairs a day with your bags. I never have, not with my baggage, anyway. Even if in a metro/train system, at the most I've walked maybe 1-2 flights with baggage. If you have a hotel with no stairs (not very common), I suppose it is possible but it would have to be a very tall hotel.

I love my backpack that also has wheels - I can carry it on my back or usually when possible easily wheel it around - even for miles at times.

Either a backpack or a wheelie, otherwise you're carrying extra weight when it's a backpack. I traveled for a decade with a backpack . This is the current version: http://shop.eaglecreek.com/rincon-vita-65l/d/1003_c_116 - so 47L for the main bag plus 20L for the day pack. I now travel with a wheelie. The wheelie is better if you're not staying close to your transport. The backpack is better for coping with stairs. It has nothing whatever to do with romance, it has to do with which is more practical, and with how strong you are.

About the most important travel advice around is to pack light, but that's more difficult in the winter. At least you'll be wearing most of the weight - I'm currently traveling and finish in London in December, so am carrying winter clothes I don't currently need....

I also strongly urge you to slow down. What's the point of going to Lisbon for two nights, which is one jet lagged day? And if you're going to Budapest do it before Copenhagen, not after, but realize that it will be cold. And dark. I'm there right now and it's already getting dark not long after 5:00 pm.

Oh, and shoes? I travel with hiking boots for ankle protection, a pair of Ecco sandals and black flats for evening. Since you seem to be a guy you can skip the black flats, lol. Maybe flip-flops instead - I could have used those at the thermal baths this afternoon.

My backpack with wheelie almost is never used as a backpack - wheels can go up and down stairs too but I use it as a backpack only in crowded areas or stairs - nice to have that option and yes it may weigh a few pounds but not that much more overall.

Most of my traveling life, I have just used a canvas bag with a shoulder strap, sometime supplemented with a secondary small bag (which usually begins the trip stuffed into the first bag). You really do not need to carry much with you if you have already perfected the art of knowing what can be washed in a hotel sink and dried in the room overnight. I have made trips to Southeast Asia for 3 weeks with only about 6 kilos of baggage.

When traveling in places with snow and ice (and slush), figuring out what kind of luggage will work best is a challenge. I think dragging stuff around wet muddy pavements can be a problem (especially if you are going to then wear the same dirty-bottomed bag as a backpack). It's a different kind of problem to have a backpack or duffel that is packed so heavily it might keep you off balance, or just get soaked in terrible weather.

I agree that in cold weather one really does not need to pack a lot, but for any long trip, it is important arrange time to do laundry rather than try to carry around enough clean clothes for the duration. You do need enough warm clean socks.

"Arrange time to do laundry"

A few minutes in the bathroom sink every other evening....

But clothes need to dry, and the itinerary outlined above is very brisk, constantly on the go, and it covers a long period of time. For the depth of cold in the places visited, it would be fairly impossible to go without some heavier trousers, socks, and shirts/long sleeve tops. Outer garments and sweaters can go the whole distance , but enough winter clothes for a month can't.

If I wash any clothes in a sink, I try to do it as soon as I check in to give maximum drying time. Clothes don't always dry well hung in bathrooms or rooms. They can't be hung outside in Jan & Feb. Personally I would rather just get my clothes washed and dried professionally, all at once. For a trip this long, I would want to track down a mid-trip opportunity to do a full load of wash and get it dry as well.

Perhaps go to the fabulous Tamborrada festival on January 19 and 20 in San Sebastian in Northern Spain very close to the French border. Music, drums, dance, literally the best food in Europe, drinks and party for 24 very intense hours. http://www.donquijote.org/culture/sp.../la-tamborrada

Here is the city choir Orfeón Donostiarra leading the crowds on the main square in San Sebastián's Parte vieja (Old town) singing on the occasion of the 75th anniversary of one of the city's most famous gastronomic societies (Gaztelubide) during the Tamborrada in 2008: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nhncDjXMeQ4

About beautiful Donostia/San Sebastian, the food capital of Spain if not all of Europe and very popular with surfers.
http://www.sansebastianturismo.com/en/

I test wash and dry my clothes before they get to travel. I travel for months at a time, and I find it's less hassle to take care of laundry myself.

I'm w/ thursdaysd. I take nothing that won't dry quickly or at least over night. The only exception is I do sometimes take one pair of jeans (never more -- other fabrics are more practical). But never wear them enough that they must be washed. If they do happen to get dirty - I just stick them in my suitcase and leave them til I get home. Everything else I pack will dry in a couple of hour or over night at the most.

Do the French ladies still buy and wear tissue paper pants as in the old child's song and which was true after the war and according to my French friends until not too long ago but who knows maybe they still sell em - if so that could be a solution to part of the laundry problem.

Playground Jungle: Index of First/Key Lines
http://www.playgroundjungle.com/2009...rst-lines.html
All the girls in France Wear tissue-paper pants. When they climb up a pole ... May also be "toilet-paper pants" for that extra measure of naughtyness.

Thank you again for all the replies. I have taken all the advice to heart. So far I have decided that a) I need to plan more time between cities -- though I will still be brisk in a few, less major destinations. b) I bought a pair of boots online, http://www.sorel.com/mens-ankeny-mid...53371.html#fit they seem the most practical for winter walking. Thoughts? c) I need to decide backpack or luggage and the point that i'll be slushing around in the snow makes me lean more towards backpack.

If possible, I would still like some advice similar to kimhe's of events taking place during my travels that are somewhat in line with my itinerary. So far the updated places and dates are listed below. Again, thanks to all for the help thus far!

Lisbon: 26-Dec - 29-Dec
Madrid: 29-Dec - 1-Jan
Barcelona: 1-Jan - 4-Jan
San Sebastian: 4-Jan - 6-Jan
Aquitaine: 6-Jan - 9-Jan
Paris: 9-Jan - 12-Jan

Amsterdam: 12-Jan - 16-Jan
Hamburg:
Berlin:
Copenhagen:
Prague:
Budapest:
Vienna:
Zurich:
London: Depart February 10th-15thish

You do list two destinations on the same days - it is better to lay out an itinerary in nights, not days.

what you really have is:
Lisbon: 26-Dec - 28-Dec
Madrid: 29-Dec - 31-Dec
Barcelona: 1-Jan - 3-Jan
San Sebastian: 4-Jan - 5-Jan
Aquitaine: 6-Jan -8-Jan
Paris: 9-Jan - 11-Jan
Amsterdam: 12-Jan - 15-Jan

This is a rush for sure.

Then you are visiting 8 more cities in 7 countries in the next 4 weeks.

That is a LOT to bite off . . .

Why Zurich? Many flks are nonplussed by this yes nice but modern city - you will not see the real Switzerland in Zurich but in places like the Interlaken-Jungfrau Region - the soaring glacier-girdled Alpine peaks, toylike mountain trains and thrilling aerial cableways going off in all directions, etc.

Janis is right about the first part at least being a little rushed - cut out maybe Hamburg and Zurich (especially in the dead of winter) and add days to Paris and other stops perhaps.

With stops often very far apart you may of course fly but Europe also has a network of overnight trains linking cities far removed from each other - plus you save on a night in a hotel.

Is your GF a real "winter, doesn't mind traipsing through all kinds of weather, carrying a backpack" kind of woman? Is she having any input on this trip?

You bought hiking boots for yourself. Good, but does she have proper shoes and clothing yet for this adventure?

Does she want to tote a backpack or use wheeled luggage?

You might consider sitting down with her to learn her expectations for the trip and to make sure she is aware of weather, short days, and longish travel times.

Since she is probably wanting to please you, she may be going along with something she won't really enjoy. Frankly, if that is the case, it is not a good thing. Just saying, it is something for you to think about seriously.

Thanks for the relationship advice, Sassafrass! You can rest assured she is involved in the decision making (is following this blog post as well), and that I am not a douchebag just because i'm an american.

Thanks!

Trojan, certainly never thought you were a "d______g" or that the question had anything to do with being American. Just that except for her going, you had not mentioned your GF again, and you might be surprised how often the person planning is so excited about making plans, they can't think it possible that the other person would like something else or might not be prepared for the trip.

An acquaintance got a surprise, last minute trip from her BF. Until they were at the airport, she thought they were going to a beach. He was so excited! He was a sweet guy, wanting to do something nice, but she didn't have a jacket, much less ski clothes, and was miserable.

Sometimes too, people are excited to be going and say they will enjoy anything, but they haven't really thought about it. A friend wanted to go on a trip to Europe with me and insisted they didn't care what we did, to plan anything I wanted. When I presented the plan, they were aghast. What I wanted to do was nothing they had ever envisioned.

So, no reflection on anybody, only to be aware of possible issues.

Sassafrass, that is fair. I apologize for the defensive response.

Trojan, all is good.

I have traveled a good bit with other people, so am probably overly watchful of travel compatibility styles.

It is funny to see how different people can be when they leave their everyday life behind. Beach people, mountain people, see everything people and relax at a cafe people, and sometimes, you don't even know what you are until you do it.

Sometimes the idea of something sounds great. Then you do it and hate it. You may learn as much about yourself and your SO when you travel as you do about the places you visit.

I sincerely hope your trip is wonderful.

Ah yeh - travel can be travail at times for some and an adventure at times for others - either brings you closer or tears you apart often.

When I was backpacking through Europe in the 90's here's the list of places I visited in a two month period. I tried to list them in the order I visited but I may have a few destinations misplaced: Amsterdam, Dresden, Hamburg, Copenhagen, Berlin, Munich, Krakow, Prague, Budapest, Zagreb, Vienna, Salzburg, Innsbruck, Interlakken, Gimmelwald, Genoa, Mallorca, Barcelona, Seville, Paris, Dublin, Galway. It was the best time of my life and looking back I wouldn't change a thing.

FrenchMystique,
Glad that trip gave you such wonderful memories. Very curious. What time of year did you do that backpacking trip? Did you go mostly by train? By yourself or with friends?

When DD went backpacking with a friend for six months, starting in Ireland, by the third week, they had split, never to see each other again. They found they just liked different things.

I went from early September to early November in 1994. I was by myself and traveled on trains only (one flight to/from Mallorca). At the time the dollar was strong and food and lodging were cheap for me. I got a two month Eurail pass that was good for unlimited first class train travel in 17 countries and I think it cost 1,500 U.S. dollars at the time. I never pre-booked any accommodation and just showed up in a city, got out my Let's Go Europe book to find a hostel, bought a city map and then walked to whatever hostel and got a place to stay. I met European backpackers on the way and in a few countries stayed with some of the people I met, which was good for about two weeks of free food and accommodation.

I don't think it would be possible to do this today for the cost of what I paid, with inflation and the need to reserve places on TGV trains and food and lodging cost. If you have the money it can be done but as I said, it would be much more expensive. At the time many train conductors just shrugged when they saw my Eurail pass (especially in eastern Europe) as they weren't quite sure what to make of it. Even though I was supposed to pay supplements on TGV trains and make reservations I never did. No one seemed to care. I remember once on an overnight train sitting in a seat trying to sleep when the conductor approached me and asked if I wanted a sleeper cabin. The train was pretty empty so he showed me to a private cabin that was super deluxe and let me stay there for free. Ah, the good old days.

Yup French Mystique - no free rides any more IME on trains or not paying the supplement, etc.

FMT,
Thanks for sharing about your trip. DD went in 1989. Back then was so different from now. I don't think she had a 90 day rule to worry about, and she got several odd jobs along the way, returning to the states with the same amount of money she had when she left. She dug potatoes in Ireland, worked on another farm in England, worked at a hotel in Germany, We never knew where she was at any given time. No internet back then, so only a phone call now and then or a letter, and by time we got the letter, she had moved on. When she learned the Berlin Wall was being breached, she hopped a train and helped, and brought back pieces she tore out.

Travel is easier now, but perhaps not as interesting.