ATM Dispute/Claim Was Denied
 

Hi, is there anyone who ran into this situation?

When I was in Barcelona a few weeks ago, I cancelled two ATM withdrawls in succession in two different banks because they both were going to charge me fees.

When I came back I found out my account was debited. I called to dispute both withdrawals. The first one was reversed, and there was a provisional credit on the second withdrawal.

But I just got a letter saying the claim was denied, and the only recourse I had was to dispute again.

I'm very sure that I didn't get the money. Has this ever happened to you?

Basically when I reviewed my statements I made four withdrawals in Barcelona. The first one was fine. The next two were done within one minute of each other (for the reason I explained above) and then the last one was done about ten minutes later when I walked to a different ATM down the street. That's why I'm really sure that I didn't get any money from the two withdrawals.

I'm confused about one thing. Where did you get the idea that the Barcelona bank was going to charge you a fee to use their ATM? European bank ATMs simply don't do that! Or were you using a non bank ATM, like one at a convenience store? I'm confused because you specifically say "in two different BANKS" so I can't understand what made you think they were going to charge you.

I was wondering about that, also, so it must not have been a bank? I've never been charge an ATM fee by a bank ATM in Spain, but I haven't been there in a couple years so who knows. I presume there was a message saying there would be a fee, that's what ATMs in the US do if you are not in their network and are a US customer, they tell you there will be a fee.

I have cancelled some ATM withdrawals in Poland, or something similar, I forget the details -- and I was not charged the withdrawal as I was a little worried so made sure to check that I wasn't charged.

The Bank of Santander is or had been charging a hidden conversion fee when using a non-Euro based Bank ATM card in their ATM machines, similar to the DCC (Dynamic Currency Conversion) scheme. The transaction was done in Spanish, but the printout was in English, listing the transaction in both Euros and USD, which was strange. When we checked, the exchange rate was nearly 5 points higher that the official bank rate for that day. This was on top of the standard ATM foreign exchange fee charged by VISA and our own bank.

I am pretty sure one bank was Barclays and the other was Santander, but I really can't remember for sure.

In one case, I believe that there was a screen message that said that I'd be (or could be) charged a fee. In the other case (actually the first transaction I cancelled, I believe, but I can't remember), it was evident to me that the exchange rate was poor -- well over 1.50 at that time. I think the ATM didn't explicitly mention a fee, but it was clear to me that there was a very severe markup in the exchange rate, so I cancelled the transaction. Basically there was a screen that specified the equivalent in dollars, and since I was withdrawing 100 euros, it was clear that the exchange rate was bad.

I made two withdrawals that day. One was at an ATM in the tourist info office by Plaza Catalunya. After I cancelled the two transactions, I withdrew money from a Deutsche Bank.

When I checked the transactions online, the two cancelled transactions had time stamps within one minute of each other. The two withdrawals that went through both logged the same exchange rate, which was 1.43+.

Anyway, I've asked Citi to dispute the charge again. But I really don't know what to do if the dispute fails again. It seems like I have no recourse. I'm pissed off about this.

Reading what Robert wrote, I'd guess that Santander was the one that was charging the exorbitant exchange rate.

I just checked my records online. The exchange rate was 1.5783. The exchange rate for the transactions that went through was 1.4348. It's insane what that bank did -- that's a fee of around 10%!

This charge was reversed by Citi, no questions asked.

I guess the other one was probably with Barclays. Is it possible to see if there's a Santander right next to Barlcays on Passieg de Gracia? I don't know how this can help Citi resolve my dispute though. The letter in the mail claimed that the ATM records were reconciled that day and the bank found no discrepancies. I'm quite sure that I didn't take out any money there. I'd not have withdrawn another 100 euros from a Deutsche Bank down the road later if I had withdrawn 100 euros 15 minutes earlier.

i have spanish credit cards and if i do not use the atm my bank supports, then i ALWAYS get a message that says " you will be charged a fee for this transaction. Do you still want to continue? YES or NO."

I would be livid. what i am not sure is if you cancel a transcaction if you also receive a paper receipt. i know you do when you finalize one. seems hard to prove. how can a machine make that mistake TWICE?

unless it was one of these scams where the professional thieves have a way to get your number from that machine, (they install something or are sitting in cars with some amazingly unbelievable equipment).. maybe this is what happened?

it is VERY common, unfortunately. they are finding these groups all over and warning people about street ATMs, although i have to admit i haven't heard anyting this month, but it has been on the news a LOT this year.

good luck.

But I'm still confused why you would have canceled the transaction before taking place. None of these would have informed you that they were going to charge you, would they? And I've never heard of an ATM that tells you what the exchange rate will be -- that is determined by your own bank back home, not by the bank where you withdraw the money from. Is that something brand new? How can a European ATM tell you the rate your US bank is going to charge you?

When I was in Madrid last year, I clearly remember trying one ATM and they did charge a fee. It asked if I wanted to accept the fee and continue. I thought it was strange so I canceled the transaction, walked down the street and used one that did not. I can not remember the bank name and it was on the street not in a convenience store. When I got home, I checked my account and was not charged.

NeoPatrick, I don't know why you are confused. I'm telling the story as I remember it. Perhaps it was what lincasanova described -- i.e. that there was a screen that said I could be charged a fee. Since I didn't want to run a risk, I cancelled the transaction.

I've seen these messages in Paris ATMs as well.

With the other transaction, yes, the ATM did specify the exchange rate or the equivalent in dollars. Again, I don't remember the specifics, but it was enough to prompt me to cancel the transaction.

And no, this is not something brand new. When I withdraw money from a Citibank ATM in Europe -- or I should withrew, as the number of Citbanks in Europe seems to be shriking rapidly -- I was always told what the exchange rate would be. For example, this applies at the ATM near Gare Centrale in Brussels.

It's really quite simple, Patrick, and I hope this clarifies it for you.

Now, lincasanova, I doubt that there was a group that operated behind the scenes. If they had my number, they would be doing a few charges, but there was only one charge that I'm disputing. Also as I mentioned, the time stamps of the transactions were logged in my records. And I was able to review them online. Someone else would have to take out the money right at the time specified, and I believe the time stamp was correctly specified. Since it wasn't me, and I didn't see anyone else taking out money from the ATM at that time, then the ATM must have made a mistake.

And no, I didn't get any receiptes that indicated cancellations.

Actually sometimes I don't even get receipts for withdrawls. I always get one if I can, but occasionally I can't because the ATM in question doesn't allow it.

This is the first time I remember having trouble with a foreign withdrawal. They credited my account initially, but then denied my dispute. So I had to redispute. As I said, this really pisses me off.

Sorry -- a small clarification. I'm not sure if the Citibank ATMs tell you the exchange rate -- I think they do, but they will always tell you what the dollar equiavlent is.

But I don't know if this only works if you have a Citibank ATM card. I don't think so, as I believe the Citibank ATMs in Europe are not regarded as Citi ATMs anyway (for a US Citi account holder).

OK, It has been almost a year since I've been to Europe. I was unaware that ANY European banks now charge a fee to use an ATM -- that IS brand new news to me (since summer of 2007), as it was always totally forbidden.

And it is also news to me that somehow a bank in Europe knows what rate of exchange your bank back in the US will charge you. I guess that's a new miracle of modern technology. All I ever did was withdraw X number of euros. I never had a clue how many dollars that would be. But I did that dozens and dozens of times over the years.

Sorry, I didn't know that banks in Europe now can charge a fee for ATM withdrawals or tell you what your bank rate of exchange will be. I apologize for my confusion.

I don't know about that. I always get 1% charges on my withdrawals overseas, but it's not clear to me who imposes that -- whether it's Citi or someone else. But oddly for the withdrawals in Barcelona, there were no 1% charges. Not sure why. Maybe Citi has changed the rules. I sort of doubt that, as Citi has been doing so poorly.

I also seem to recall having seen screen messages warning you about fees before 2007. But I don't remember for sure.

And as I said, Citibank ATMs have specified the exchange rate and/or dollar equivalent for withdrawals for me for a while. This I'm quite sure about, as I try to use Citibank ATMs when possible.

Lately I've given up on that idea -- it seems that they have closed their branch on Champs-Elysees, and now the branch on Bond Street in London is closed. I've used all of these ATMs before (when they existed), and also Citibank ATMs near the train station in Munich, and I believe in Milan, and probably in quite a few other cities (Brussels, as mentioned).

It seems the bank MUST know there is more money left in the ATM machine than should be.

i hope by insisting you get this worked out. be persistant.

don't give up.

I know, lincasanova. That's why it's so disheartening when I got the letter saying that they reconciled the ATM records for that day and found nothing.

In the past I've never had this problem. I think that I've even had situations when the bank reverses the charged before I managed to catch on.

I'm just annoyed that I have to spend my time dealing with this. And I wasn't happy that the customer rep I talked to said that all they could do was to dispute the charge again. This just doesn't give me a great deal of confidence.

And it leaves me wondering what I should do in a future situation. Should I be aggressive about saving on a 1% (or x% fee) when I may end up being charged 100% of a withdrawal I didn't do? (Now I know the probability of a false record is evidently larger than 0.)

Re: ATM "fee"

IME, some European ATMs will have a warning saying that I *may* be charged a fee by MY BANK, not the European bank ATM. At least, that's what I've seen using my BoA ATM card.

Re: exchange rate

I have never seen the exchange rate, or US$ equivalent, shown on the ATM screen ever.

I guess every bank's ATM cards are different.

111op: I'm pretty sure you are either confused, or have simply forgotten what happened.

The Spanish ATM will not (and cannot) tell you what the final exchange rate will be. They have nothing to do w/ the "exchange" you get. You ask the machine for € and out comes €. It is not until the € debit is presented to your own bank that the exchange rate is set.

As far as the Spanish bank is concerned - there is no "exchange" happening. It is simply a € withdrawal.

So if you got that part wrong, it is possible you "mis-remembered" some other bits . . . . . .

Janis, thanks for the insinuation. But I can assure that I am still pretty young -- younger than you anyway -- so my memory is quite all right!

I just don't know what it is about some people on this forum. If you were not there, please don't pretend that you know what happened.

And yes, the Spanish ATM told me what the exchange rate was, either implicitly or explictly. So that led me to cancel the transaction.

Why would I cancel it otherwise? Must I fax you a copy of my bank statement to prove this all to you?

And by the way, I got into all that detail about Citibank ATMs to show that they have been doing this for a long time. I wanted to provide this level of detail to show that I know what I'm talking about. Please don't talk to me as if I am an idiot. I am not. Thanks!

And oh, janis, I get the insinuation and your point already with three dots. No need to use six dots for ellipses. I don't like it when people don't punctuate properly either.

I hear what you are saying, and no, I didn't make this up.

Why not check to see if there's a Barclays next to a Santander on Passeig de Gracia, if you have so much time on your hands? I'm pretty sure that I got that detail right. If so, I'm going to remember other details.

Believe me, I'm very detail oriented. And quite intelligent, if I may dare say so. :-)

Sorry -- one correction, in that example, I'd probably use four dots for ellipses. Six really is overkill.

But sometimes the older generation likes to nag and to think that they know better. :-)

I've done the Googling myself. In the search facility for Google maps, there's a Barclays on 45 Passieg de Gracia. I can't seem to locate a Santander nearby, but there's a Banesto on 37 Passeig de Gracia. I believe the two are partners in Spain. 37 and 45 are, however, numerically not right next to each other.

I can't be 100% sure that these are two banks, but if I remember correctly that one is Barclays, then this should be one of them, as I can't imagine that there are multiple Barclays branches on Passeig de Gracia.

When I read Fodor's and participate in Fodor's, I sometimes get the impression that the attitude here is "guilty until proven innocent." It's really rather ridiculous, in my opinion.

I think that I've posted here enough to establish that I am a real person who travels to Europe a few times a year. And that I'm capable of traveling to Prado and back to the airport within a four-hour layover to see an art show on Patinir, and all this is humanly possible, unlike some people seem to think! Wink. :-)

Janis, I know what you mean -- I agree with you totally, and really am having trouble believing that the entire ATM process has changed that drastically since last year. But if someone says that an ATM showed the exchange rate or the amount of dollars it would cost or even what the temperature is back home -- well, who are we to argue?

lincasanova and others, because of the incident in Madrid in March, we have stopped using the Bank of Santander, but continue to use BBVA, Caja Madrid and many other banks, including Barclays without encountering this problem. It may have something to do with the Bank of Santander being involved with the sub prime mortgage business.

NeoPatrick & Janis, why not open up an account at Citibank? I'll pay for your tickets to Brussels. Withdraw some money from the Citibank ATM (I hope it's still there) near Gare Centrale and see that the ATM indeed displays the dollar equivalent (or enough to let you know what the exchange rate is).

If this doesn't happen, I want my money back x 2. How's that for a bet?

Don't argue because there's really nothing to argue. I'm not blind. I'm fairly young. My memory is fine. And last, I'm not an idiot. Thanks! :-)

By the way, Robert, I thought that Santander escaped from this all relatively unscathed. Didn't they buy a stake in ABN Amro, along with Fortis? I can't remember exactly. But whatever stake and whichever bank they bought, they flipped the stake faster than any one else.

Instead Fortis got burned and had to be bailed out by the Dutch and Belgian governments.

I guess Santander is covering its losses by charging 10% on FX transactions. Ha ha.

Now wait a minute. You are talking about a Citibank ATM that you were using? I thought you were saying it was a Spanish bank ATM. If it was a Citibank, then what's all this talk about googling for Barclay's and other banks? Meanwhile, now you're saying that it was a Citibank card in a Citibank ATM and that is why you cancelled the transaction -- because you didn't like their rate? Or if you are saying that the Citibank ATM in Belgium told you about your own Citibank account and a rate, that's quite a different matter. I thought we were talking about a European bank in Spain.

My point and I assume Janis's is that a European Bank won't tell you how much your home bank is going to charge you, nor will it tell you the exchange rate or the number of dollars. Of course your own bank's ATM might.

But if you say the one YOU used in Spain did that, well . . .OK, if you say so.

No, it's an ATM in Barcelona.

But Citibank ATMs in Europe have been displaying the exchange rates implicitly for years.

I think all this is quite clear from my posts actually, Patrick. If they are not clear, then maybe try taking some reading classes. :-) Or read something else, as my posts don't seem to agree with you. :-)

I can also offer this bet. Why don't we all fly to Barcelona together and use my ATM card and see what the screen says? The loser picks up all the travel costs. That's fair, isn't it? :-)

OK, if we're going to talk about being clear.

You were NOT using a Citibank ATM in Spain where the problem happened, right? That sure is how I read it. So who in the world cares if a Citibank ATM in Belgium tells you what your balance is on their/your own account, or what the actual charge will be? What on earth does any of that have to do with the entire issue of this European bank that supposedly told you what the exchange rate was, you cancelled the transaction, and now your bank says you didn't?

My point is simply that a European bank ATM will NOT do that. And you sure seemed to make clear that it was a European ATM that DID show you the exchange rate and dollar cost. Is that NOT right?

Now is that clear, or do you need to make more snarky comments about people being too old or unable to read?

Let me just clarify.

The Citibank ATM usually displays a message along the lines of "I'm about to deduct xx.yy dollars from your account. Is that OK?" Something like this anyway.

I'm not sure this is unique to Citicard holders. This messsage appears after you specify an amount in Euros you want to withdraw. I don't know why this feature should be unique to Citibank only. So when the Spanish ATM did something similar, I didn't think much of it. I just thought that it was normal.

In any case, I think the sequence of posts speaks quite well for themselves. So I'll conclude this exchange for the moment with one last "snarky" remark. I was brought up to "respect" the elderly.

So I'm letting it rest for now, people. Peace. Thanks!

And I'm more interested in checking prices on trips I'm about to take. I'll respond when there's something more relevant and worth responding to. Enjoy your evening.

OK, one more comment from me. You do realize, don't you, that logically withdrawing money from your own US account at your own US bank's ATM is very likely to be totally different from withdrawing money from your US account at a non related European bank's ATM?

111op: My, you certainly do get testy over absolutely nothing.

I did not attack you. I VERY carefully did not say anything that could remotely be considered an attack. I very <u>gently</u> suggested you may have mis-remembered what actually happened. Which, by the way, you said first. &quot;<i>I am pretty sure one bank was Barclays and the other was Santander, but I really can't remember for sure.</i>&quot;

So I was only agreeing w/ you - you really can't remember for sure. So - before you start attacking folks for some imaginary slight - you might, just maybe, want to re-read what you wrote . . . . . (more of the ellipses that seem to send you round the bend &gt;-) )

Oh, let me add another clarification. Actually the one with the marked up exchange rate was cancelled by Citi when I reported it, no questions asked.

It's the other one (probably at Barclays) that's giving me trouble. In that case, I cancelled it because some possibility for a fee was mentioned, so I cancelled to be on the safe side.

And I'll post these lines from what I can find from my online statements:

xx-xx NONCITIBANK ATM WITHDRAWAL Sep xx 17:15 yyyy $ 143.48

xx-xx NONCITIBANK ATM WITHDRAWAL Sep xx 17:26 yyyy $ 143.48

xx-xx NONCITIBANK ATM WITHDRAWAL Sep xx 10:21 yyyy $ 143.48

xx-xx NONCITIBANK ATM WITHDRAWAL Sep xx 17:14 yyyy $ 157.83

Times are NYC time, so to get Spanish time, you need to add six hours. I did the first withdrawal at 10:21, which was 4:21 pm. (I had a connection in London.)

The next three withdrawals happened after 11 pm at night when I was walking to my hotel after dinner at Moo.

As mentioned, the $157.83 was voided with no incident after I called Citibank. You can see that the last withdrawal that night was logged 11 minutes afterwards. This was one at Deutsche bank.

Hope this clarifies things further, if you need that level of detail!

Janis &amp; Patrick, as I said, I'll refrain from non-essential comments. I think that our posts speak for ourselves. Let's just leave it at that.

It's a meaningless discussion unless you've got something useful to add, and you really don't at the moment. Time is money, so let's not waste one another's time.

i can't believe what i am readng here.

i hope you are proven right somehow and get that money back.

one possiblity?

maybe you didn't press &quot;do not continue&quot; and actually left the money and receipt in the machine that spit it out a few seconds later once you retrieved your card.. and the next person got it??

the card usually comes first.. then the money and receipt. could you have just &quot;fled&quot; without checking that the screeen went back to original messages for a new transaction?

Hey lin, of course anything is possible, but I think that's unlikely. I think the machine would have beeped as a warning? Also, by habit, I usually wait until the screen refreshes before leaving. I do pay attention to these kinds of things (believe me). When it comes to anything money-related, I'm careful. Maybe because I don't have enough. :-)

And let's say I walked away without getting the cash. I *think* that as the ATM refreshed, it would have just taken in the unwithdrawn money. It wouldn't have left the cash out for the next person. I don't know though. Would love to try this experiment on somebody else's account. :-)

And, as you know, it shouldn't take very long for an ATM to refresh, so all of this should have happened in less than one minute -- I mean, after all, I switched to a different ATM in a different bank in about one minute, if you believe the statement records.

Plus it was after 11 pm that night. I don't remember very many people around. I just think that I'd have noticed if there was something strange.

I know this all sounds unbelievable -- and I just also don't see how they could have reconciled the ATM records for that way without finding anything. That's why I'm posting to see if someone else has had this experience.

But I've also worked enough and lived enough to realize that while humans are fallible, machines and computers can be fallible as well. I am pretty sure that the transaction for $157.83 was not reversed within a week or so. So if I hadn't called, I don't know if it'd have resolve by itself.

I think that I had an ATM mishap once. In London, I actually forgot to take my card after I'd done a withdrawal! And the machine, I think, was beeping, but I must have been too tired that day. So the ATM ate the card. :-) By the time I realized it, it was too late.

I think that this happened at the Bond Street Citibank (where there was still one). There's something strange about this story too, actaully, as Citibank ATMs are usually of the &quot;insert card and pull out&quot; variety. But my recollection was not that Citibank ATM I used. So it was the type that the ATM holds your card while processing the transaction.

Oh by the way, just to clarify again, Citi has given me a provisional credit, as they did the last time. But they will probably mail me a letter in a few weeks saying that they have to reverse the credit. I hope not, of course.

I'm just trying to prepare for that possibility.

If they can't resolve this to my satisfaction, I don't know what I'd do. But I'll probably be less aggressive cancelling transactions I don't like in the future.

&quot;It's a meaningless discussion unless you've got something useful to add, and you really don't at the moment. Time is money, so let's not waste one another's time.&quot;

Well, this may not exactly be something &quot;new to add&quot; as Janis and I have both mentioned it before. But the fact remains that European bank ATMs do NOT tell you the exchange rate your own bank back home in the US is going to charge, nor will it tell you how many dollars your euro withdrawal will be. If someone can confirm that such information is now a real part of the European ATM experience, through some new marvel of technical capability -- then that would be &quot;new to add&quot; information. But until then, some of us are still scratching our heads at the entire premise of this post -- that some European ATM told you the exchange rate your own bank was going to charge, so you decided not to continue. Sorry, that's the part of the whole story that doesn't make much sense. If nothing else, the ATM can't know what day your bank will actually post the withdrawal to your account, so it CAN'T know what the rate will be then! Nor can it possibly know what kind of account you have with your own bank to know what level of fees that type of account will charge you. Of course you own bank's ATM could tell you that information -- but here you are talking about foreign banks that can't and don't -- unless something very new is now possible.

You say it &quot;is not likely&quot; that you walked away without retrieving your money if it failed to cancel, yet some of us say that is a &quot;more likely&quot; scenario than finding a foreign ATM in Spain that told you what your own bank's charges would be if you withdrew the money. One other thought still remains. Perhaps it did say something like &quot;your own bank may charge you a fee for this service&quot; -- well, yes, but you already knew that. So that would hardly be a reason to cancel.

Is anyone able to confirm that European ATMs now have the power to tell you what your US home bank will charge you for the transaction BEFORE you get the money? And if someone can confirm that such information is now given, I will gladly admit I am wrong about this.

Patrick, indeed you are missing something. For the last time, find some other axe to grind.

Or else, why not take me on the offer to fly to Barcelona together? As I said, if you lose on the bet, pay me.

Otherwise, stop whining. It's very simple. Thanks!

Also, let me say it again. The $157.83 was reversed without incident. Why did I reverse it?

Obviously I had too much to drink at Moo and I was depressed? Or because I love ATM transactions so much that I love to cancel them and start new ones? :-)

I hope that when I get older, I don't turn into a Patrick or a Janis. Ha ha. :-)