ATM Alert-Please Read!
 

WATCH THOSE DEBIT CARDS! I use to have the kind with the Visa logo and when my wallet was stollen, the thieves went to town! It took me so long and such a hassle to sort through it all. The money is immediately withdrawn from your account and you could be wiped out before you even know your card is gone. You can find yourself with a "0" balance in your checking account, like I did! I changed my card and now DO NOT have the Visa logo and my ATM works perfectly everywhere....only difference is that now a 4 digit PIN is required so if my card were ever stollen again, the thieves couldn't use it because they wouldn't know the PIN. What a terrible way to learn my lesson....just want others to be aware that if it has the Visa/Mastercard logo, it only takes a swipe....no PIN required! Make sure you get one that requires a PIN and doesn't have the Visa/Mastercard logo!!

Just don't sign it !!! Write for Atm USE ONLY all over it in indelible marker!

Yes, I will vouch for it only requiring a swipe. I accidently grabbed my daughter's ATM with the logo and used it to get gas. I just swiped it and filled up my tank. I only realized I had used her card after I got home. Trust me....no one at the gas station ran out to look at the card or any signature. I can see how this could be a tragedy and ruin an otherwise great vacation. So sorry Mary but thanks for giving us a heads up on something we may not have ever considered.<BR>A lost credit card is completely different because you have a chance to see the bill before you pay the bill in case you want to dispute a charge. With a Debit card, you don't have this luxury. Good information Mary. Thanks, Sid

Miss Mary,<BR>So sorry to hear of your misfortune! I'd better look into this because like so many, I have the mastercard logo on my ATM card. I didn't order it this way, it just arrived this way. Does this mean I'm protected or what??

Hey xxx.xxx, <BR>why would you have anymore protection from thieves wiping out your account than the rest of us? As far as i know, (at least in my case) I never requesed the logo either. This is a bank thing.

A gas station is just about the only place you don't have to present your card for verification or swiping. even groceries ask to see the card if you swipe it yourself. How much gas or petrol could someone but to wipe out your acount?

clarifications:<BR>debit with visa/mastercard logo: debit banking card for cash withdrawal and purchases where places accept visa/mc<BR><BR>debit atm card: normally issued by your bank strictly for atm money withdrawal and other account related activities<BR><BR>perhaps my experience might persuade others NOT to use or sign up for debit banking cards..incidentally, one day when i was withdrawing cash from the atm i noticed a shortfall of about a grand..turns out someone made a big purchase from an online company using the debit card even though i have never made a purchase anywhere before; the acct number was obtained apparently with an aid of a computer thru 'number rolling.'...as far as i know, if you use these card in gas stations or online purchases there are no extra precautions like the pin requirement..you literally use it just like a credit card except you're not in the position to dispute a charge simply by refusing to pay...the bank issuance has the right to investigate for 2-3 wks all the while you will not have access to your money (though the bank may allow a 'temporary loan' under duress)...i read from a recent news article that while consumers are protected from fraud exceeding $50, no such laws exist for debit card holders...<BR><BR>chances are if the transactions are indeed fraudualent, you would be able to recover most if not all your money eventually but imagine the major inconveniences like filing paperwork and lack of access to your own money...<BR><BR>take-home lession: the transaction that occurred to me was flagged down by the company who handled the order (probably because the order went to some name like troy mcclure or monty burns); so the responsibility lies within the company to be diligent about checking your name and billing address but seriously, how good of a job will/can they do? most banks will push their customers to a debit banking card but the bottom line is, you should stick with a plain atm card to withdraw cash; the only pros for getting these banking cards are people who wish to exercise financial restraints (ie., not spending beyond their means) but i think all the fodorites know about that :)

There is a man on the radio (his name escapes me) but he calls the debit cards "fake credit cards" and has advised everyone against them. My wife and I changed ours from a Debit card to a straight ATM card over a year ago after hearing his show and reading other alarming stories such as Mary's. The merchants are probably suppose to check ID but many don't....or they have fake ID's made. There are stories of large purchases such as computers, TV's, furniture etc. aside from internet purchases. Now with my ATM (which does require the PIN) I still use it often for purchases and my wife uses hers for all our groceries, the mall, even at the pharmacy for perscriptions etc. I really haven't noticed any difference between using the ATM for purchases as to when I had the Debit card. I just feel a whole lot safer! As for internet purchases, most people have a credit card anyway that they could use. I agree, the very safest is to have it has an ATM card only primarily used for cash withdrawls from an ATM machine. This would be a terrible thing to happen if you were overseas because even if your spouse still had their card, assuming you had a joint account....your checking account would still be wiped out. I believe there will someday be legislature against debit cards due to this type of risk. Unfortunately, it's not all that uncommon. Tom

Thanks for all this information! I'm going to France in 2 weeks and had planned to have plenty of money in my checking account and take my debit card. Now I don't think I'll take it, unless I can get a new ATM card without the Visa logo,in time for my trip. Alot of places where I use my credit cards ask to see the card, but hardly ever for any other ID. I'm very grateful for this information from you all.

They've had shows on TV (Dateline, 20/20 type)informing people to get rid of these dreadful Debit cards. My daughter's roommate had saved for years to go to Europe after her college graduation. She had her debit card stolen in Spain. She realized it that evening but it was already too late. She had over $5,000 taken out of her checking account within 18 hours by the time it was reported back to the bank in USA(time change plus it was a Sunday). The thieves did some serious shopping FAST, buying computers and electronics. Long story short, she had to cut her Europe trip short by 3 weeks. We got rid of ours immediately after this happened....now sleep better at night!

Thanks Mary, Due to others like yourself warning fellow Fodorites, I asked my Bank for an ATM card for my trip. I had an ATM Debit card. My bank was able to issue it while I waited, so if you need just an ATM card, just go to your bank and pick one up. Be sure to tell them how much you want to be able to withdraw a day, because they usually put a low limit $300 or so if you don't ask for a higher withdrawal limit. I also have an AX Platinum card which debits my checking account that I take as a backup.

My next door neighbor is a bank manager and she told me she wouldn't have a Debit card! I'm glad they're trying to make the public aware of this on TV. My neighbor bank manager also made a good suggestion that when traveling overseas (or away from your home bank) take an extra ATM card in case one is either demagnatized or stollen (since requiring a PIN won't ruin your trip). It makes good sense huh?

You certainly opened my eyes. Something I'd never considered or thought about...guess my head was in the sand. Thanks for making me and others aware! Carrie

Well that's enough for me. I am cancelling the whole dammned trip. Can't take a debit card 'cuz somebody might steal it and drain my checking account before I can call home, can't use a credit card at an ATM because the interest accrues imediately, can't take travellers checks 'cuz they are passe and frowned upon, can't buy foreign currency before leaving 'cuz you get raped by the exchnge rates and up front fees and/or I might get pickpocketed or robbed, can't take USD 'cuz, well don't even bring that one up here. Maybe I should just take a cardboard sign that says "WILL WORK FOR GNOCCHI AND A GOOD CHIANTI."

Cute! I say go on your trip and have a great time....just change your ATM card first to require the pin number.

Just to clarify some terms here:<BR><BR>A debit card is a card containing the Visa or MasterCard logo. It can be used as an ATM card which requires use of a PIN, it can be used at Point of Sale (POS) terminals which require a PIN number or it can be used as sort of a credit card. To the merchant it is a credit card....they don't require a PIN number but rather a signature on an invoice. In theory, the merchant is supposed to check the signature against the signature on the card. In the US, more and more, merchants do not bother to check the signatures. In England, merchants very carefully at least look at the signature. Whether they examine it that closely or not is open to some question. These are the kind of cards that folks are having trouble with.<BR><BR>ATM cards do not contain the Visa or MC logo. They may contain the logo of Cirrus or Plus or Maestro. They can be used in ATM's or POS terminals. They always require a PIN number.<BR><BR>Interestingly enough, in some of the British newspapers, credit card crime has become some prevelent that it is thought that within several years all transactions, at least in Britain, will require use of a PIN number even credit card transactions.<BR><BR>There is little you can do about credit card fraud. Every time you hand over your credit card, your number can be compromised by a clerk or waiter. If it is a credit card, you are never out the money. A debit card, well eventually you will get your money back, but it can be disconcerting.<BR><BR>Debit cards are, however, very handy. The situation that was described is extremely unfortunate and it happens. Whether that means one should absolutely unqeustionably shun the use of debit cards is open to discussion. Sometimes their convenience outweighs the minimal risk..<BR><BR>Just some food for thought.

I just read this thread and am concerned. No less than 1 hour ago I bought over $100 groceries, received $20 cash back and never had to enter any pin number. I guess this is what Jeff refers to as a Point of Sale (POS). I swiped the card through the "thingy" at the register and no one asked to see the card, let alone any identification. I could have just found this card lying in the parking lot for all they know (or don't know)Hmmmmmm. Me thinks me needs to contact my bank about this!

Tom, The radio host's name is Clark Howard. He's preached against these "fake credit cards" (as he calls them for years). www.clarkhoward.com<BR>Got rid of mine long ago, they should be outlawed.

Here is the website that spells out the dangers of the Visa/Mastercard Debit cards:<BR>http://clarkhoward.com/shownotes/2001/07/30.html

Good Website John, thanks for the info. Mary did you recoup any of your lost money?

Stop your whining...you can probably afford the loss if you went to Europe.

Just to clarify some terms here:<BR><BR>A debit card is a card containing the Visa or MasterCard logo. It can be used as an ATM card which requires use of a PIN, it can be used at Point of Sale (POS) terminals which require a PIN number or it can be used as sort of a credit card. To the merchant it is a credit card....they don't require a PIN number but rather a signature on an invoice. In theory, the merchant is supposed to check the signature against the signature on the card. In the US, more and more, merchants do not bother to check the signatures. In England, merchants very carefully at least look at the signature. Whether they examine it that closely or not is open to some question. These are the kind of cards that folks are having trouble with.<BR><BR>ATM cards do not contain the Visa or MC logo. They may contain the logo of Cirrus or Plus or Maestro. They can be used in ATM's or POS terminals. They always require a PIN number.<BR><BR>Interestingly enough, in some of the British newspapers, credit card crime has become some prevelent that it is thought that within several years all transactions, at least in Britain, will require use of a PIN number even credit card transactions.<BR><BR>There is little you can do about credit card fraud. Every time you hand over your credit card, your number can be compromised by a clerk or waiter. If it is a credit card, you are never out the money. A debit card, well eventually you will get your money back, but it can be disconcerting.<BR><BR>Debit cards are, however, very handy. The situation that was described is extremely unfortunate and it happens. Whether that means one should absolutely unqeustionably shun the use of debit cards is open to discussion. Sometimes their convenience outweighs the minimal risk..<BR><BR>Just some food for thought.

Have no idea what I did to cause this message to repeat itself. Sorry for any inconvenience...didn't do this deliberately.

ttt, you're rude remarks are not called for! The same thing could have happened to many of us. We appreciate the alert Mary and hope you report back as to your progress in this disaster.

Excellent points. Thanks.

Just a side point - debit cards in the UK don't seem to have these problems. The two main ones here are Switch and Visa Delta, and all banks have an agreement where if the card is stolen and you report it you are only liable for the first 50GBP - 100GBP of it (and most banks won't even charge this if you argue it.) There is a problem with "skimming" which can be done with credit cards too - think about what's happening when that nice waiter takes your card away from the table to process it...<BR><BR>The French already use a system of PIN numbers and this has virtually eliminated credit card fraud, and the UK banks are looking to implement this in the next few years.

I never could see *any* reason to have a debit card. Why not use a credit card or cash? There is absolutly no possible benefit for the consumer in using a debit card, and many pitfalls. If I have overlooked something, please let me know.

And I heard yesterday on the news that a number of banks are beginning to tack on a service charge for each debit transaction that is made with your debit card. It will just be a matter of time before this practice becomes widespread. Another reason to shun the debit card.

to xxx.xxx,<BR>I think the point is that this could wipe out your checking account without your knowledge, you could be in a foreign country, it could happen on a Sunday when your bank is closed etc. It could really ruin your vacation by not having access to your own cash. In foregin countries, most travelers now depend on accessing Euros or foreign currency from ATM machines. Even in the USA, travelers access ATMs in cities away from home. Now as to ultimately getting your money back....you may very well prevail but a seperate claim form has to be filed for each and every charge. Is this something you would look forward to? Who is going to cover you in the meantime? Disputes are handled with individual bank who issued the card, not with centralized Visa/Mastercard. It's the opposite of a real credit card where you receive a bill and can file a dispute for a fraudulant charge BEFORE you pay your bill. The bottom line is to get the card without the logo and that requires a PIN. This way if the card is lost or stolen, it won't benefit anyone who tries to use it since they would not know your PIN. This is a Huge Scam for many thieves because unlike credit cards, you don't sign your name...just swipe and leave with the merchandise and maybe even some cash back. Consumer advocates are advising you to get rid of this type of card. There is a website posted in a previous posting (within this thread) which discusses this.

I have to wade in on this discussion because like many of the above posters I had planned on using my debit card for cash withdrawls or advances while in Italy. I called my back which issued my VISA debit card and here's what they told me. First of all I have a 24 hour toll free number that I can call from anywhere in the world to report the card stolen. Second, VISA has daily limits of $1,000 purchases and $500 ATM or cash advances, third according to US banking laws they must resolve any disputed debits within 10 days. At least they won't completely drain my account before I can get the card reported stolen. <BR><BR>I was initially quite concerned after reading many of the posts, but am now a <BR>little more relaxed about carrying a debit card for cash and a credit card for other purchases. Of course, I will still guard them with my life.

In addition, if the card is reported stolen within 2 days my liability limit is $50 and $500 if reported stolen within 60 days.

Ok, I've read the various postings regarding this. If I'm going to take my "real" credit cards (a Visa and an American Express) and use this for major purchases, hotels etc. then why do I need a Debit card when all I'm going to use it for is obtaining cash out of ATM machines (basically all I use it for in the USA anyway)....why would I need this Visa logo on the card? I'm going to switch mine to a straight ATM card that requires a PIN incase it is ever lost, stollen, duplicated etc. The right move...right?

That sounds like the wise strategy -- keep ATM and CC functions on separate cards.

Thanks JIm for posting some more objective information. I have one of these debit cards, also, with a VISA logo. There is a $50 limit on my liability if the card is stolen or lost, just like a credit card, if it's reported, and there is also a purchase limit maximum per day so nobody could drain my account. My bank says they range from about $500-2500 (purchase limits) depending on your credit, but the above info from "Dateline" sounds bogus that anyone's account could be drained of $5000 in less than a day; if so, that person had very had purchase limits.<BR><BR>I did not ask for this card, though, my bank just gave it to me because it replaced their old ATM card system. I have never used it as a debit card and see no reason to, so I agree there is not much point to it. The only purpose for it I can see is for people who cannot get a credit card. Otherwise, it makes more sense to charge things to a credit card, get a free float on that money for a month, and then pay one sum to the CC when the bill comes. It would be a lot easier and make bookkeeping simpler, also, having one bill. I think these debit cards may have developed because it's cheaper for the banks to process transactions that way than paper checks, at least that's what I suspect.

To Confused:<BR><BR>I'll give you one instance where a Visa debit card can be better than a plain ordinary ATM card.<BR><BR>You can go into a Visa bank and use a visa debit card to get a cash advance. Now while it is processed by the issuing bank as a visa cash advance, when the transaction clears the visa system it is a withdrawal from your chequing account.<BR><BR>Why is this advantageous? Maybe the magnetic strip on the card is damaged and it is not being read by the ATM. the teller enters the number into the computer and issues the cash. <BR><BR>There is another little bit to this. On an ATM transaction, you may be charged by your bank and by the other bank. You are not charged by the issuing bank on out of country ATM transaction. For example, British banks are not allowed to charge US cardholders for using their cash machines. But your own bank may charge you up to $5. Many banks charge for using another bank's ATM but have neglected to institute the same charge for using the bank branch.<BR><BR>I will use the Charles Schwab account which I have as an example. Schwab charges $1 per ATM transaction. In the US, if I use my Schwab card to withdraw $50 from an ATM, I am hit for $1 from Schwab and usually $1.50 from the bank whose machine I use. The same transaction in Europe costs me $1. Go into the bank branch and use it for a cash advance (see above) and the transaction is free.....Schwab does not charge nor does the issuing bank. In Europe I save $1 (not a big deal), in the US I save $2.50 (maybe a little more significant).<BR><BR>So I will live with the danger as I use the debit card for cash transactions. The brokerage account is not my primary chequing account anyway. I have no doubt that if it is used in a fraudulent manner, I will get every cent back.<BR><BR>Just my humble opinion on this matter. You can decide for yourself what you want to do and if it helps your peace of mind, that's your right.

My last word on the subject:<BR><BR>ATM card are becoming a thing of the past. I called 6 local banks (all nationally chartered banks), and each one of them said that they are fast phasing out during the next year the strict ATM card and are headed toward a Debit card that can be used for ATM withdrawals as well as purchases. Many said that they haven't issued a strict ATM card for several years. Those that do said they are often issued to customers with poor credit history. Either way, protecting whatever financial instrument you carry, be it a credit card, debit card, travelers checks, or cash should be paramount. Lose of any of the above can spoil an otherwise great vacation.<BR><BR>Thanks. Great discussion without all of the usual name calling and chest bumping!!

Not sure if you all saw the same TV show that I saw, but what happened in this case was a women was wiped out before she knew her card had been stollen (or maybe it was duplicated..don't remember). I've already switched mine to a straight ATM, but something similar could have happened to someone like myself because I generally only hit my local ATM once a week, sometimes longer.I don't check every evening to make sure my card is in my wallet. It isn't just the case of eventually getting your money back, it's the time and hassle involved to fill out a seperate loss report for each fraudulant usage as well as the loss of immediate need of cash while you're waiting for the outcome. My bank manager commended me on changing mine, but she's also a close friend who said she wouldn't have a Visa/Mastercard debit card. I just prefer to keep my credit card usage and ATM usage seperate, it gives me piece of mind. I suppose if someone didn't have the capability to obtain a "real" credit card, maybe there's a place for the debit card.

After reading this, I called the issuer of my debit card. They said that one option is separate the POS from the ATM and to set limits on each. So, just now, over the phone (after they confirmed my identity) I was able to limit the POS to $x while keeping the ATM withdrawal limit at $y per 24-hour period.<BR><BR>Might also work for some of you; hope this helps.

Ok, I must be dumb but I'm still not clear as to why someone needs a Visa debit card if they already have a Visa credit card? Both the debit and the ATM takes the money out automatically so doesn't the ATM (if used for purchases) serve the same purpose as the Visa type debit card? Mine doesn't have the logo and does require a pin although I use it often for everyday purchases if I don't want to rack up my credit card bill.??

To Mustbedumb:<BR><BR>The main reason is that when you use a CREDIT CARD to make an ATM withdrawal or cash advance, you start paying immediately, and I mean immediately, a high rate of interest on the money. A credit card purchase will usually give you a grace period that varies according to the card issuer. A DEBIT CARD uses your money in your checking account, so the most you will pay is a small transaction fee from the "foreign" (out of your bank's system) bank and perhaps another small fee from your bank. Check the disclosure that came with your credit card, it will spell it out in detail. Don't be surprised if it says that you will pay a very high interest rate, sometimes 15% to 20% on cash advances. Most credit card monthly statements even seperate out "purchases" from "cash advances" so they can charge a higher rate, check out one of your recent statements.<BR><BR>The general concensus in this forum is to use whatever method charges the smallest fee for your foriegn currency transaction. I personally will never use a credit card for a cash advance unless it is a dire emergency. <BR><BR>Jim is right, protect your stuff as carefully as you can. I would say that no matter what a thief steals from you, whether it is a credit card, debit card, cash or travellers checks, they are going to go "to town" with it. The key is to be prepared in advance with the right contact information to be able to report your cards or traveler's checks stolen as soon as possible.