Ira, bravissimo!

As for myself, I've been with a couple of Europeans on a couple of different occasions who were so remarkably flexible I wondered if they were Olympic gymnasts! (Different type of flexability there, I guess.)

Yes, you are a guest in their country, and it might be accomodating of YOU not to act like you are entitled to have what you want exactly when you want it.

BC

"You have just learned that you cannot have whatever you want, whenever you want it."

Yes, full marks, Ira. It's a lesson that we tried hard to drum into our kids' heads, with mixed success. It's a pity that a lot of people reach adulthood without learning it.

This post almost made me sympathise with Basil Fawlty's tirade against his guests. "You people! You come in here .. you expect to be waited on hand and foot!"

Gosh, I don't need to consult a statistician to see the clear trend here...
cindi, was your "get with the program" meant to imply that it is the tourist who needs to conform to the local program? If not, looks as though you'll find no quarter here.
And ira - would that the valuable lesson you cite was a mandated part of every curriculum in the country. We'd have far fewer kids graduating (with great self esteem) because they were able to achieve passsing grades on multiple guess standardized tests after "content reviews" that are thinly disguised cheating schemes, but who are barely literate and can't count above ten without removing their shoes.
Sigh - I really AM an old fart... (and you don't want to see the emoticon that goes with that ;-))

"As for myself, I've been with a couple of Europeans on a couple of different occasions who were so remarkably flexible I wondered if they were Olympic gymnasts!"

Bookchick... you totally owe me a new keyboard, because I'm never getting the Diet Coke out of this one.

Oh Neil, having a 15 year old grandson that is going through the "hey world, it's all about me" I do hope he will outgrow it. You aren't giving me much hope, lol.

My parents use to have a store in a mall in the midwest. My Dad says that you pick the hours, not the customer.
Inevidably at a few minutes before closing time someone would rush in and want to shop endlessly. After being there all day, you wanted them to get the heck out regardless of their purchase.

LoveItaly, you and I both recall that long-ago time when offspring were expected to reach some approximation of adulthood in our twenties. The boundary now seems to be stretching out towards 40.

Other than that, we don't have a problem.

I think cindiloowho's comment is being completely misread. When she says, "got to get with the program" she is obviously referring to herself and the need to get in the local groove. In no way is she implying that local customs should change to suit her schedule or eating habits.

That said, when a traveler shows up at a restaurant and is clearly hungry, would it kill the kitchen to come up with <i>something</i>--cheese with bread and fruit, or soup left from lunch? A &quot;laid back&quot; attitude of not chasing the almighty dollar isn't the issue here---after all, the waiter was working, wasn't he, not having a siesta. He still had to bring them the cheese (but nothing else), and presumably something to drink. That's a bit different from closing the door and saying, &quot;not open for dinner until 6pm.&quot;

I travel to experience other culture's &quot;programs.&quot; This includes resetting my clock (literally and figuratively), eating food that I would not find at home, seeing a way of life that is different, in short, doing it someone else's way. Isn't that the point?

Oh Neil, I just read your comment to my daughter. She said to tell you that you are not encouraging at all, lol. Until they are 40 you say? May I not live to see it dear friend. But you are correct, are young ones are not maturing in a lot of cases as they should. Hang in there!

What I meant was, it seems that spirit and creativity are what has made us in America florish, that is, when we see a need, someone invents something to meet that need. (and usually gets wealthy in the process). Now in Spain, we had our 'churros' for breakfast offered in the hotel or small coffee shops, then 'dinner' is around 2, as I remember, then 'siesta' which lasts until around 4 when everyone gets on the freeway and goes back to work. Madrid is one of the only big cities in the world that has 4 traffic jams a day. And since we were on the road, we often missed dinner, and couldn't get anything (except cheese) anywhere. All the shutters are rolled down, and even the dogs don't bark. Then they had 'tapas' in the early evening (when it is cooler) and then often a late meal around 10p.m. Yes, I eventually 'got with the program' and learned to carry a candy bar to guard against an alarming drop in blood sugar. But I was only musing that being flexible and meeting a need when there is one can be very financially rewarding. If the waiter guy had made us a sandwich, we would have been happy, had more beer and probably hung around til dinner time, thus spent more money. It is only lately that Europe has followed the concept of the 'super store' where you can buy anything, anytime. Shopping is time consuming and cumbersome, especially if you have to walk from the bakery to the meat store to the veggie store to the wine store, etc. Rigidity is probably not one of the 'traditions' that is worth preserving...while maintaining the 'cultural' aspects of a country, they could also be a little practical. Once in France we asked for our morning coffee in the lobby, but the said 'we don't do that', 'only in the room'. So we (husband and the maid) had to walk up three flights of stairs (elevator broken) to drink cold coffee...all in the name of 'tradition'. In Denmark I ordered an expensive meal, with lots left over, asked for a 'doggy bag' and she looked at me like I was insane...said very huffily 'we DON'T do that!&quot;. So had to walk away from a perfectly fine $100 plate of spagetti, all in the name of tradition....just a few thoughts.

Cindi,

I see that you are starting yet another thread of complaints. Have you nothing positive to say about anything?

Bookie: GTYR!!!

&quot;<i>When she says, &quot;got to get with the program&quot; she is obviously referring to herself and the need to get in the local groove. <u>In no way is she implying that local customs should change to suit her</u> schedule or eating habits</i>&quot;

After reading cindi's last entry you realize that is exactly what she meant. As Underhill mentioned, Miss cindi loo who has a history on here of complaining just about anything/everything.

Cindi - If you were always on the road during Spanish meal times it means you didn't plan very well. If everything works so much better back home - you might be happier staying home.

It's strange what some people find &quot;rigid.&quot; I suppose it is better for some if we all gravitate to superstores selling primarily the same goods, admittedly practically round the clock and at bare-bones prices, even though many of those items -- especially food! -- are of very mediocre quality. I've ever quite seen it that way.

I've always enjoyed the flexibility, in Europe, of grazing among several small shops for my groceries, where even similar types of shops have very different items, most of very high quality. Perhaps I prefer the bread at <i>this</i> bakery but the pastries of <i>that</i> bakery. There's the pride and personal touch that the shopkeepers bring to their dealings because this is their own business, not just a low-wage WalMart job.

Just for the information, in between mealtimes restaurants aren't idle. There is a tremendous amount of prep work to be done preparing for the next meal. It is the tradition of most European restaurants to serve only twice a day. In between, undoubtedly the restaurant personnel have other things to do besides provide a third seating for a single family.

It's important to remember that Europe is not a theme park. Europeans do not exist to provide tourists with a good time. If you want a Disneyland experience, may I recommend a lovely trp to Epcot Center? There you will be treated with the deference and constant consideration of your needs that you require. If you are visiting another country, you will need to adjust to their way of doing things, or you will have a very unhappy trip.

Re: cindyloo follow up post: Egads. Definitely invest in one of those culture awareness books before the next trip.

<i>Shopping is time consuming and cumbersome, especially if you have to walk from the bakery to the meat store to the veggie store to the wine store, etc. Rigidity is probably not one of the 'traditions' that is worth preserving..</i>

I don't know... it seems like any idea that has some positive merit eventually runs the chance that it will lose it's impact. A victim of &quot;success&quot;, depending on who is determing what that is.

I highly regret the loss of these individually purposed shops in most places around the US. I enjoy getting to Australia or Europe or even some of the large cities in the US, like NYC, who still have these places. In many places, the big box is all that's left as an option for shopping - and employment. One type of option, to me, seems as inflexible as shops that actually have set hours.

I've noticed around here that since the big grocers, for instance, began offering a meat counter and an in-store bakery, that independant butchers and bakers have gone the way of the milkman. There was the convenience of one-stop shopping that probably did make sense and so it worked as an idea. But it really wasn't very long after those butchers and bakers closed up shop for lack of volume and the inability to stay open til all hours, that things changed again. The meat counters are beginning to disappear in favor of pre-packaged meat shipped in from factories far away. Baked goods pretty much come shrink wrapped. Maybe it'll go the other way someday, and I do know it hasn't happened everywhere, but I've seen the trend spreading quite a bit.

So, for me it's not a us bad/them good thing but the big box is an idea that hasn't actually been around that long. I'm not so sure that it's proven itself in so short a time as an ideal anymore than the retail system that's worked for centuries.

I have to admit, when we visit family and see them ring round to the butcher (by name) and have them pick out a nice roast for dinner. Then be able to pop down and pick it up - complete with an offer to have the young assistant carry it to the car - that I'm a bit envious. I'm not convinced it was worth the trade.

I think it's weird cindiloowho is complaining about the business hours/mealtimes in Spain - I always found them to be perfect for tourists.

You get up and have a late-ish breakfast, sightsee or shop until 2 and then have lunch, then visit a museum or cathedral or some such (which do stay open in the afternoons) or have a snooze, then out for a pre-dinner stroll, drinks and a nice dinner which sees you through until bedtime.

And one of the things I love about Spain is that you *can* get something to eat at most hours of the day. My husband and I arrived in Barcelona at midnight - but easily managed to find a neighbourhood bar serving food - with a smile - at that hour.

Of course, it depends on the attitude that you yourself take. I imagine that if you arrive at a place and start complaining about opening hours or the fact that the local shoeshop won't make you a snack because you're hungry, well then perhaps it's only logical that you get bad service.

An example of how rigidity isn't confined to Europe:

We've arrived at our San Francisco hotel straight off an overnight flight from Sydney, knackered, and ask the desk clerk whether it might be possible to get early access to our room so we can freshen up before hitting the streets. Not possible. Why? Because he doesn't know whether the room has been cleaned. Why? Because the computer is down, and as it's Labor Day a tech can't be found (naturally). OK, I respond, I can see the problem. How about I have a look in the room, come back down and let him know the state of play? Not possible. Why? The hotel doesn't allow guests into the room before the key is issued. OK, I say, check me in and give me the key. If the room hasn't been cleaned I'll hand the key back and we'll come back later. Can't be done. Why? Keys aren't issued until the room is ready to be occupied. We admit defeat and drag ourselves off for a coffee, as the pale lliquid in the urn in the foyer gives every indication of having been stewing since Memorial Day.

Now, before anyone jumps down my throat, I have plenty of examples from my own and other countries. I use this one only because cindy is holding her own country up as the epitome of flexibility. Was it typical? No, but it happened. And I can't help feeling that cindy is conveniently forgetting any examples of flexibility and good customer service she met with in Europe.

The early closing times for lunch caused lots of angst in our relationship when we spent a year in Europe. But it was OUR fault. We would be happily trundling along in our combi when around midday, I would say - we had better look for a restaurant for lunch. Our problem was we (but mainly my husband) were always looking for that little quaint county inn or relais which doesn't exist in every village - so we would keep hunting. Finally it was 1.30pm, we would find it but of course we were too late. By that stage I was starving and I am not a pleasant person when hungry. Finally we would pick up a crappy stale baguette avec jambon from a bar.

It was our fault. It was a case of &quot;the grass is always greener&quot;. Better planning would have solved the problem - in fact any planning. I think we lost out by trying to be spontaneous in some case.