For France, using the SNCF website and buying in advance can save you a boodle compared to a walk-up purchase. I agree Raileurope is making money hand over fist from un-savvy American travelers.>

oh we went over this misleading type statement last week did we not - i showed that RE at most has a modest mark up over similar tickets in France.

and RE routinely now it seems has $70 tickets Paris to Avignon, Marseilles, etc. Say sncf.com charges 39 euros - that's about $60 - modest mark up IMO - and RE French tickets are now electronic - you pick them up just like online tickets from sncf.com

I will once again do a comparison to see but do not believe the mnisleading IMO info about RE charging huge mark ups, etc.

and when talking about RailEurope you are of course talking about the SNCF, French Railways which owns most of RailEurope (about 75% - 25% going to Swiss Railways) - one and the SAME entity for all purposes - but the difference is that RE has to turn a profit or go out of business - the SNCF can run huge deficits as they have for years and years when all costs are figured in and no one seems to care.

RE does a service and at a modest increase in price. There are times even when RE can be cheaper than buying tickets in Europe - on some German ICE trains for example.

suec1:

Is it Trenatilia that will not accept your credit card OR your credit card company not authorizing the charge? I'd call my credit card company and make sure they do not have a stop on foreign credit card purchases. This could be the problem.

>>>>>
Since the US doesn't have the rail infrastructure that Europe does, Americans just don't understand that way of travel and think it's like booking airline tickets.
>>>>>>

i think it's more the opposite problem. i think many americans who don't understand european trains assume that they operate more like US commuter trains....just show up, pay a very modest sum and you're off....reaching any destination in an hour or less!

americans planning train travel as they would for airplane travel would actually solve a lot more problems and misunderstandings than it creates.


anyway, i'm not sure why we would assume that customers would be charged the same no matter where they book. markets for travel vary greatly country to country and price is a matter of conditions of that market.

I guess RailEurope might not be making money "hand over fist", but Americans who use them are still paying "through the nose".

Case: Frankfurt airport to Munich Hbf costs $142 from RailEurope (actually a single ticket would cost $160 including S&H, which you can't avoid). You can get the same ticket, self printed, online from the Bahn, with reservations, for €91, $127.40. Maybe they are only making $15 on the deal; actually they're making $33 if you include S&H. Where Americans really get taken hand over fist is because RailEurope does not offer any choice other than the ICE connections to Munich. You could take an IC for €73 ($102), $40 less. RailEurope might not get the extra profit but you are still paying the difference. And, you can get a Dauer-Spezial fare for €31 ($43.40), a savings of almost $100, or 69%.

Of course, that is for a highly visible fare. Take one a little less visible, I did last November. I went from Cochem to Köln, stayed 2 hours for lunch in Köln, then went on to Bad Harzburg by way of Hannover. The only way RE sells that route costs $191, without shipping. The same fare, on DB, with reservations costs €97, $136. RailEurope charges $55 more, a profit of 41%. Now I would call that "hands over fist", and that is with no shipping. I used a self-print, Dauer-Spezial fare at €31 ($43.40). That saved me $147.60 (77%) over the RE price.

So, for a visible price, like FRA to Munich, they keep the price down, but for less visible prices, they really "sock it to you". And, whether they are making the profit or not, for any route, they really charge a lot vs. the Dauer fare.

suec1 and CathyM:

Back in April, the problem was definitely with Trenitalia's site, nothing to do with not calling the CC companies. However, a more recent post on this forum (in June I think?) said the problem had been fixed, so maybe it works now.

If it still doesn't work, then no you can't get the discount.

Completely agree with Larryincolorado.
Much discussion on the Trip Advisor site with examples of much higher rates on Raileurope than those found buying direct.
In one instance , I remember raileurope offering first class tickets, at high cost on routes where only 2nd class service existed.
These are facts not opinions of those seemingly defending Raileurope.

In addition, Raileurope offers an incomplete schedule of trains. Many discounted offers are available directly on the national rail websites of various countries.
In Austria, buying tickets on the day of travel is easy and efficient at the ticket window. many agents speak several languages. Even more discounts for those traveling together over regular price.

look to

www.oebb.at

some in english too.

If you wish to save money - do not use Raileurope

The situations where I'd use RailEurope are extremely limited. But that said, while I'm delighted when I get cheap fares on various official European rail sites, and usually I do, I can't get too upset if residence requirements or the wrong type of credit cards means I miss out on the cheap fares. The rail system in every country is subsidized, and if you get a cheap ticket, it's definitely subsidized. So it makes sense that these tickets should be available to actual residents of the country more so than tourists.

<<
oh we went over this misleading type statement last week did we not - i showed that RE at most has a modest mark up over similar tickets in France.

Just because we went over it doesn't mean you were right. You showed ONE fare that was maybe a dollar more on RE than on SNCF - hardly a statistical sample. I don't understand why you persist in your defense of RE. Obviously, for some people buying passes who plan to tour the Continent, they make sense. For 90 percent of other folks, it pays to learn how to use the countries' rail sites or buy PTP tickets once there, even though residency and other restrictions may apply.

Here's that thread and PQ's calculations were off because he chose to use an inflated € instead of the actual rate. As several of is pointed out in that thread, his figures were off.
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-the-price.cfm

Au contraire - it is you who made the statement 'huge rip-off - heavily inflated, etc. and i asked you to prove what you said - still waiting for some concrete examples of that. Re does a moderate mark up - and i am talking about Europe in general - not a huge mark-up - and yes for some who cannot navigate the horrific sncf site that would be priceless.

I'll give it another look and check out more.

kybourbon's calculations being off is very little - does not change the moderate price increase at all.

I could care less about RE but to see statements that just are not so true being presented as Gospel... well that ain't right either IMO

put up or s up - give me some examples of the huge huge rip-offs please.

Here's an example of RE vs SNCF:

Taking from this thread:
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...m#last-comment

September 22, 2009
CDG - Avignon
Train # 9826, departs 11:43, arrives 14:39

Buy directly from voyages-sncf.com, one can get PREM fare for €22 in second class. Print ticket at home.

Buy directly from RailEurope.com, the lowest fare is US$78 + shipping and handling.

OK. When I say that RailEurope is a "huge ripoff" or that their prices are "heavily inflated", I don't necessarily mean that they are making an enormous profit, only that with them, for some reason, people are having to pay a lot more than they should or otherwise would. And I, and others, have already provided you with ample proof of that.

Maybe RailEurope is only making $15 more per ticket than they would if you bought it over the counter in Europe, but we have to believe that French Rail is already making a profit on the over-the-counter price. And then, on top of that, they make another $18 to $36 on S&H.

An example of how the prices are heavily inflated due to RailEuropre's inefficient system was shown on my trip last November. Full fare online from DB for Cochem to Köln to Hannover to Bad Harzburg would have been €97, $138 if I put it on my CC today. Rail Europe would have charged me $200, $191 for the tickets and $9 (half of $18; I bought two tickets) for S&H. That's $62 (45%) more than the full fare price. I think that's enough to justify the statement that the prices are heavily inflated.

But, I actually paid $44 for the ticket (and self-printed it). That's a difference of $156, 350% over what I actually paid. Whether it's because they are making a huge profit, or because they don't offer all of the specials, it is still a ripoff to have to pay $200 for something I can get for $44.

Geting back to your Berlin to Frankfurt example, assuming you bought a second ticket and split the $18 S&H, the ticket from RailEurope would cost $184, $24 more than the price from DB. However, let's say that I wanted to stop for a few hours in Hamburg before going on to Frankfurt. DB would charge €129 ($184) full fare. The only way I could ticket that from RE would cost $278, $287 including half a shipping charge. That's over $100 (56%) more.

Could someone please post the www for the part of the SNCF website where I can investigate schedules and prices. I have spent at least 30 minutes futzing around with the general website - trying to keep from being sent to RailEurope - and I am still not able to run what should be a simple scheulde check. I can navigate in French if I need to but obviously not enough to find the part of the website that I want!>

and this is what most novices experience with trying to use sncf.com - there have been thousands of such posts - hard for old pros to believe that some folks just do not want to put up with that travail. Luckily on fodor's if folks post their problems helpful folks like yk, st cirq, ira and others will help them work it all out. But sometimes old pros make it sound too easy and don't come from a novice mind-set.

PalQ - I agree that some (or most) European rail websites make it difficult for non-native speakers to navigate. It depends on how much one care to save some money.

For me, I'm more than happy to read up on old threads, use Google translate, do trial-runs and dummy bookings on these European rail websites so that I *know* how to use them to book my train tickets directly.

Like the example I gave above, most tourists probably think the $78 ticket (+ S&H) is reasonably-priced, for a 3-hr ride on TGV from CDG to Avignon. But if they find out that they can get the EXACT SAME ticket for only $31 (€22), will they be willing to pay 2.5 times to buy it from RE?

ok so im reading this thread. Im going to london for a day while im in paris. Im Looking on RE for roundtrip sameday. Found it for $104 not sure if that includes their fees. Can u suggest how to get it cheaper. Where should i book etc.
thanks

soylily- have you looked at Eurostar.com?

Try looking for a "PREMS" fare on the SNCF website

The DB website has schedules for other European railroads, although maybe not the fares.

I just compared the respective costs for an ICE connection between Frankfurt Airport and Karlsruhe whih I do a couple of times a year. The fare of 36 Euros or $50.00 covers ANY ICE connection between the two points. RailEurope gets $64.00 and in some cases $75.00. Can this be justified.

also try www.eurostar.com and say France is your residence, right - same fares i think as voyages-sncf.com.

22 euro fares are not the norm i think for travel that say is coming up in a month or so - or maybe they are - i have to investigate more

Larry - are you comparing fully flexible full fare tickets to be used on any train anytime or comparing those to the online discounts that may be train-specific and non-refundable?

Often i think when the word 'rip-off' is used it compares full fare tickets to online highly restricted tickets - which are great for the person who has their itinerary in concrete months in advance.

I will have to investigate more...

Back to OP's <I can see why folk perhaps feel that pre-purchasing in dollars might make good sense, but surely not when the ticket purchased costs twice as much (or even ten times as much) as an identical ticket purchased on a European website.>
Well then explain to me why Swiss Passes sold thru RailEurope are currently (last time i checked and has been so for a few years) significantly cheaper here than at stations in Switzerland - the exact same pass? Blanket statements like that cannot be made.

>>Larry - are you comparing fully flexible full fare tickets to be used on any train anytime or comparing those to the online discounts that may be train-specific and non-refundable?
>>Often i think when the word 'rip-off' is used it compares full fare tickets to online highly restricted tickets - which are great for the person who has their itinerary in concrete months in advance<<

When I referenced the $138 full fare ticket from Cochem to Bad Harzburg from German Rail, I was referring to a fully exchangeable, fully refundable, no advance purchase necessary ticket. However, the $138 fare is the online price with a €2 reservation. So there is a certain amount of advance purchase involved, although it is a self print ticket, so it can be purchased online up until the time when you don't have a printer available. The same ticket purchased at a counter with a €4 reservation would cost $141. I compared that $138 DB ticket to a $200 RailEurope ticket, which obviously requires more advanced purchase, enough advance purchase for them to be mailed to your home before you leave.

The RailEurope tickets are train-specific and nowhere near unrestriced tickets. The RailEurope website notes that "This fare is non-refundable and non-exchangeable." Doesn't that mean that this ticket is non-refundable and non-exchangeable? Perhaps they are only referring to the reservation fee ($11), but they don't say that specifically. Of course, the shipping fee is also non-refundable, so if you don't use the ticket, as is, you are out at least $20 (about half the entire cost of the DB train-specific, non-refundable ticket).

The RailEurope website also says that in general, "Tickets are refundable after the first day of validity if they have been endorsed as 'not used' by a railway official at the station of departure", so for sure, if you don't go to that station, they are not refundable. They don't specify what the charges are to refund such a ticket.

The website also says, "Refunds and Exchanges are subject to a 5% administrative fee per ticket" and "A 15% cancellation penalty applies to unused tickets received by the issuing office prior to the 1st day of validity." They don't say how much refund you get after the first day of validity, but I doubt they charge less. In most cases I have found, 20% of the fare less reservation, plus the reservation fee and shipping charges are more than the entire cost of a Dauer-Spezial fare.

So, compared to the discount tickets from DB, a ticket purchased from RE will still cost you more if you don't use it, and will cost you a lot more if you do.