Are Americans being overcharged for European Rail Fares?
 

I have noticed that many North Americans visitors to my home continent, who have pre-purchased their European rail tickets in the US or Canada, seem to have paid vastly over the odds for their tickets. More than I, as a European, would pay if I just purchased the fully flexible buy-on-departure fares here. And over ten times as much as Europeans would pay for advance purchase tariffs. You can see some price comparisons for five sample journeys at http://www.hiddeneurope.co.uk/european_rail_fares.php, and read more at http://www.hiddeneurope.co.uk/articl...rticles_id=683.

I can see why folk perhaps feel that pre-purchasing in dollars might make good sense, but surely not when the ticket purchased costs twice as much (or even ten times as much) as an identical ticket purchased on a European website.

I would be interested in any comments.

They do this because (a) they don't know how to do otherwise and/or (b) they feel better having another task done prior to leaving for vacation.

Sometimes it is difficult to navigate train web pages. So, some people purchase tickets from agents in the US who do the navigating and purchasing and we are sure we are ordiering the correct tickets.
Of course, these companies are in business and must make money. I don't think it is the purchasing in dollars. I think it is just that we might be unsure of ourselves especially for a first time purchase.
Also, we have the tickets in our hand before we leave. I don't know how easy it is for everyone to discover the difference in prices.

Yes.

And how about (c) when nothing could be done otherwise (like when the Trenitalia website rejects all your CCs, and it's too late to get any discounts by the time you buy the tickets in person in Italy).

It has nothing to do with being unsure of oneself or being too dumb to navigate web pages-- I can navigate even Hungarian pages just fine, knowing only a few words. Some sites just won't let you buy with a US credit card.

Rail passes (most of the companies sell pt-to-pt tickets too)have been marketed so well that many people assume they are a bargain and the cheapest way to travel. They think RailEurope or Eurail is a train and all the trains in Europe are owned by them. Others think all the trains sell out and they must purchase in advance. Since the US doesn't have the rail infrastructure that Europe does, Americans just don't understand that way of travel and think it's like booking airline tickets. Others are just anal and need tickets in hand before departure even if they have to pay double for having OCD.

You don't have to buy in advance to be overcharged-- you are overcharged when you are forced to pay the walk-up fare at the station, instead of being able to buy three weeks before with a 30 percent discount online!

Agree with original poster about these overcharges.
Places like raileurope seem to charge much more than purchasing the same ticket locally even when one does this at the train station on the day of travel.

Perhaps tourists do not realize how easy it is to purchase your tickets and the large savings involved.

many countries rail companies have easy to use websites to locate schedules and even buy direct. Some will mail tickets or you can print some on line.

Also many countries offer highly discounted tickets for fixed departures and routes. These too advertised on the websites.

Most here, Austria, simply go to the train station shortly before traveling, buy the ticket ( 2nd class is fine ) and board the train.
savings can be substantial.

for Austria

www.oebb.at

for schedules and offers. prices for travel easily found and can be compared with purchases elsewhere.

No reason to be unsure or afraid of this method. Most bigger places will have english speaking staff to assist .

"It has nothing to do with being unsure of oneself or being too dumb to navigate web pages" ..

often it is frustrating because it takes a long time to figure things out.
I was trying to buy tickets from the ( excellent) English site for German railways, but it would not accept my telephone number.
I finally asked someone on Fodor's - turns out you have to place " 0" before a country code !
I was able to print the part of the trip in Germany, but Prague - Dresden ticket had to be mailed to me (?).
Still I saved about 30%.

Another example of non-acceptance of North American credit card was at the Amsterdam train station .
There were a hundred people at the counter so I tried to buy a ticket from the machine - it would not accept my credit cards. The only option was the EXACT change .
I was ready to kick the thing, well ... instead I bought something and got the darn change.

But as I have said so many times before Dutch railway ticket machines don't accept anybody's credit card, not even Dutch ones. The do however accept debit (ATM) cards.
Never mind soon you have to buy an OV card and use it on all public transport, provided you have enough money on it.
It is the same as an Oyster card.

>>>You don't have to buy in advance to be overcharged-- you are overcharged when you are forced to pay the walk-up fare at the station, instead of being able to buy three weeks before with a 30 percent discount online!<<<<

You certainly won't find those discount tickets on Rail Europe and there are some discounts that don't have to be purchased in advance. On Trenitalia you can get a walk-up family discount most of the time and they were offering a 35% r/t same day discount on the fast trains which was great for day trips.

>I finally asked someone on Fodor's - turns out you have to place " 0" before a country code !
You have to place "00" before a country code. That is the normal way foreign numbers have to be dialed from here, not a fancy idea of Deutsche Bahn to confuse overseas travellers.
Quite useful to know, by the way, if you plan to phone home during your travels.

The title of this thread is misleading.

First, it has nothing to do with being American - it has to do with greedy travel agencies who are selling the more expensive tickets because their commission increases with price. This happens to inexperienced travellers all over the world - including Europeans.

Second, the above mentioned website compares apples with oranges. The travel agencies sold normal-price tickets without restrictions while the cheap tickets are sometimes very hard to get, restricted and non-refundable. The 29-Euro-Sparpreis ticket sells out so quickly that chances are low that you get it. And it is only useful if you know in advance exactly which connection you will take.

But this is exactly the same as with airfares. So, nothing new.

It is very easy to avoid the pitfalls of complicated fare systems:

1)Make yourself familiar with the websites and online booking systems. Play around for some time.

2)Read one of the numerous threads here on this forum.

3)If you have a question, just post here. You will get most useful advice within a few hours.

For France, using the SNCF website and buying in advance can save you a boodle compared to a walk-up purchase. I agree Raileurope is making money hand over fist from un-savvy American travelers.

traveller1959 (above)

You suggest that the comparison table referred to above is misleading. It shows the fare quoted for specific journeys with date, preferred of travel and route detailed at the time of the request (which was 12 June 2009). And then simply shows the fares that were quoted.

Yes, you are right that the DB within Germany €29 Sparpreis fare sells out quite quickly. Which is why that very cheap fare does not feature in the table. (The only €29 deal shown was the Europa-Spezial Kroatien fare still available with some eight weeks advance booking on the Berlin-Hamburg-Munich-Zagreb routing).

If travellers want to maintain the utmost flexibility and not book anything in advance, then they will surely pay a huge price for that flexibility. But tickets purchased through some agents (such as Rail Europe) will still usually be even more expensive that flexible tickets purchased from local European websites.

"You have to place "00" before a country code. That is the normal way foreign numbers have to be dialed from here, not a fancy idea of Deutsche Bahn to confuse overseas travellers."
of course not, but if you are not from "over there"
how would one know?

Many people seem to not grasp the idea that you need to know how often you will be using the train, to know if a 'pass' or any kind is worth it. First-timers seem to think they must have a 'Eurail pass' even when they are only changing cities a couple times on their trip.

hiddeneurope, Thanks for bringing this up. I am just starting to plan a trip for later April to Amsterdam with some side trips. I am sure I will be asking for some advice as it gets closer.

hetismij - <i>"Never mind soon you have to buy an OV card and use it on all public transport, provided you have enough money on it. It is the same as an Oyster card."</i>

When will this new OV card take effect? Will you still be able to use Strippenkaarts?

Robyn :)>-

Well I justed posted a request for help with booking night trains in Italy. If the Trenitalia webiste will not take my US credit card - how can I pre-purchase these tickets to an advance booking discount?

For France, using the SNCF website and buying in advance can save you a boodle compared to a walk-up purchase. I agree Raileurope is making money hand over fist from un-savvy American travelers.>

oh we went over this misleading type statement last week did we not - i showed that RE at most has a modest mark up over similar tickets in France.

and RE routinely now it seems has $70 tickets Paris to Avignon, Marseilles, etc. Say sncf.com charges 39 euros - that's about $60 - modest mark up IMO - and RE French tickets are now electronic - you pick them up just like online tickets from sncf.com

I will once again do a comparison to see but do not believe the mnisleading IMO info about RE charging huge mark ups, etc.

and when talking about RailEurope you are of course talking about the SNCF, French Railways which owns most of RailEurope (about 75% - 25% going to Swiss Railways) - one and the SAME entity for all purposes - but the difference is that RE has to turn a profit or go out of business - the SNCF can run huge deficits as they have for years and years when all costs are figured in and no one seems to care.

RE does a service and at a modest increase in price. There are times even when RE can be cheaper than buying tickets in Europe - on some German ICE trains for example.

suec1:

Is it Trenatilia that will not accept your credit card OR your credit card company not authorizing the charge? I'd call my credit card company and make sure they do not have a stop on foreign credit card purchases. This could be the problem.

>>>>>
Since the US doesn't have the rail infrastructure that Europe does, Americans just don't understand that way of travel and think it's like booking airline tickets.
>>>>>>

i think it's more the opposite problem. i think many americans who don't understand european trains assume that they operate more like US commuter trains....just show up, pay a very modest sum and you're off....reaching any destination in an hour or less!

americans planning train travel as they would for airplane travel would actually solve a lot more problems and misunderstandings than it creates.


anyway, i'm not sure why we would assume that customers would be charged the same no matter where they book. markets for travel vary greatly country to country and price is a matter of conditions of that market.

I guess RailEurope might not be making money "hand over fist", but Americans who use them are still paying "through the nose".

Case: Frankfurt airport to Munich Hbf costs $142 from RailEurope (actually a single ticket would cost $160 including S&H, which you can't avoid). You can get the same ticket, self printed, online from the Bahn, with reservations, for €91, $127.40. Maybe they are only making $15 on the deal; actually they're making $33 if you include S&H. Where Americans really get taken hand over fist is because RailEurope does not offer any choice other than the ICE connections to Munich. You could take an IC for €73 ($102), $40 less. RailEurope might not get the extra profit but you are still paying the difference. And, you can get a Dauer-Spezial fare for €31 ($43.40), a savings of almost $100, or 69%.

Of course, that is for a highly visible fare. Take one a little less visible, I did last November. I went from Cochem to Köln, stayed 2 hours for lunch in Köln, then went on to Bad Harzburg by way of Hannover. The only way RE sells that route costs $191, without shipping. The same fare, on DB, with reservations costs €97, $136. RailEurope charges $55 more, a profit of 41%. Now I would call that "hands over fist", and that is with no shipping. I used a self-print, Dauer-Spezial fare at €31 ($43.40). That saved me $147.60 (77%) over the RE price.

So, for a visible price, like FRA to Munich, they keep the price down, but for less visible prices, they really "sock it to you". And, whether they are making the profit or not, for any route, they really charge a lot vs. the Dauer fare.

suec1 and CathyM:

Back in April, the problem was definitely with Trenitalia's site, nothing to do with not calling the CC companies. However, a more recent post on this forum (in June I think?) said the problem had been fixed, so maybe it works now.

If it still doesn't work, then no you can't get the discount.

Completely agree with Larryincolorado.
Much discussion on the Trip Advisor site with examples of much higher rates on Raileurope than those found buying direct.
In one instance , I remember raileurope offering first class tickets, at high cost on routes where only 2nd class service existed.
These are facts not opinions of those seemingly defending Raileurope.

In addition, Raileurope offers an incomplete schedule of trains. Many discounted offers are available directly on the national rail websites of various countries.
In Austria, buying tickets on the day of travel is easy and efficient at the ticket window. many agents speak several languages. Even more discounts for those traveling together over regular price.

look to

www.oebb.at

some in english too.

If you wish to save money - do not use Raileurope

The situations where I'd use RailEurope are extremely limited. But that said, while I'm delighted when I get cheap fares on various official European rail sites, and usually I do, I can't get too upset if residence requirements or the wrong type of credit cards means I miss out on the cheap fares. The rail system in every country is subsidized, and if you get a cheap ticket, it's definitely subsidized. So it makes sense that these tickets should be available to actual residents of the country more so than tourists.

<<
oh we went over this misleading type statement last week did we not - i showed that RE at most has a modest mark up over similar tickets in France.

Just because we went over it doesn't mean you were right. You showed ONE fare that was maybe a dollar more on RE than on SNCF - hardly a statistical sample. I don't understand why you persist in your defense of RE. Obviously, for some people buying passes who plan to tour the Continent, they make sense. For 90 percent of other folks, it pays to learn how to use the countries' rail sites or buy PTP tickets once there, even though residency and other restrictions may apply.

Here's that thread and PQ's calculations were off because he chose to use an inflated € instead of the actual rate. As several of is pointed out in that thread, his figures were off.
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...-the-price.cfm

Au contraire - it is you who made the statement 'huge rip-off - heavily inflated, etc. and i asked you to prove what you said - still waiting for some concrete examples of that. Re does a moderate mark up - and i am talking about Europe in general - not a huge mark-up - and yes for some who cannot navigate the horrific sncf site that would be priceless.

I'll give it another look and check out more.

kybourbon's calculations being off is very little - does not change the moderate price increase at all.

I could care less about RE but to see statements that just are not so true being presented as Gospel... well that ain't right either IMO

put up or s up - give me some examples of the huge huge rip-offs please.

Here's an example of RE vs SNCF:

Taking from this thread:
http://www.fodors.com/community/euro...m#last-comment

September 22, 2009
CDG - Avignon
Train # 9826, departs 11:43, arrives 14:39

Buy directly from voyages-sncf.com, one can get PREM fare for €22 in second class. Print ticket at home.

Buy directly from RailEurope.com, the lowest fare is US$78 + shipping and handling.

OK. When I say that RailEurope is a "huge ripoff" or that their prices are "heavily inflated", I don't necessarily mean that they are making an enormous profit, only that with them, for some reason, people are having to pay a lot more than they should or otherwise would. And I, and others, have already provided you with ample proof of that.

Maybe RailEurope is only making $15 more per ticket than they would if you bought it over the counter in Europe, but we have to believe that French Rail is already making a profit on the over-the-counter price. And then, on top of that, they make another $18 to $36 on S&H.

An example of how the prices are heavily inflated due to RailEuropre's inefficient system was shown on my trip last November. Full fare online from DB for Cochem to Köln to Hannover to Bad Harzburg would have been €97, $138 if I put it on my CC today. Rail Europe would have charged me $200, $191 for the tickets and $9 (half of $18; I bought two tickets) for S&H. That's $62 (45%) more than the full fare price. I think that's enough to justify the statement that the prices are heavily inflated.

But, I actually paid $44 for the ticket (and self-printed it). That's a difference of $156, 350% over what I actually paid. Whether it's because they are making a huge profit, or because they don't offer all of the specials, it is still a ripoff to have to pay $200 for something I can get for $44.

Geting back to your Berlin to Frankfurt example, assuming you bought a second ticket and split the $18 S&H, the ticket from RailEurope would cost $184, $24 more than the price from DB. However, let's say that I wanted to stop for a few hours in Hamburg before going on to Frankfurt. DB would charge €129 ($184) full fare. The only way I could ticket that from RE would cost $278, $287 including half a shipping charge. That's over $100 (56%) more.

Could someone please post the www for the part of the SNCF website where I can investigate schedules and prices. I have spent at least 30 minutes futzing around with the general website - trying to keep from being sent to RailEurope - and I am still not able to run what should be a simple scheulde check. I can navigate in French if I need to but obviously not enough to find the part of the website that I want!>

and this is what most novices experience with trying to use sncf.com - there have been thousands of such posts - hard for old pros to believe that some folks just do not want to put up with that travail. Luckily on fodor's if folks post their problems helpful folks like yk, st cirq, ira and others will help them work it all out. But sometimes old pros make it sound too easy and don't come from a novice mind-set.

PalQ - I agree that some (or most) European rail websites make it difficult for non-native speakers to navigate. It depends on how much one care to save some money.

For me, I'm more than happy to read up on old threads, use Google translate, do trial-runs and dummy bookings on these European rail websites so that I *know* how to use them to book my train tickets directly.

Like the example I gave above, most tourists probably think the $78 ticket (+ S&H) is reasonably-priced, for a 3-hr ride on TGV from CDG to Avignon. But if they find out that they can get the EXACT SAME ticket for only $31 (€22), will they be willing to pay 2.5 times to buy it from RE?

ok so im reading this thread. Im going to london for a day while im in paris. Im Looking on RE for roundtrip sameday. Found it for $104 not sure if that includes their fees. Can u suggest how to get it cheaper. Where should i book etc.
thanks

soylily- have you looked at Eurostar.com?

Try looking for a "PREMS" fare on the SNCF website

The DB website has schedules for other European railroads, although maybe not the fares.

I just compared the respective costs for an ICE connection between Frankfurt Airport and Karlsruhe whih I do a couple of times a year. The fare of 36 Euros or $50.00 covers ANY ICE connection between the two points. RailEurope gets $64.00 and in some cases $75.00. Can this be justified.

also try www.eurostar.com and say France is your residence, right - same fares i think as voyages-sncf.com.

22 euro fares are not the norm i think for travel that say is coming up in a month or so - or maybe they are - i have to investigate more

Larry - are you comparing fully flexible full fare tickets to be used on any train anytime or comparing those to the online discounts that may be train-specific and non-refundable?

Often i think when the word 'rip-off' is used it compares full fare tickets to online highly restricted tickets - which are great for the person who has their itinerary in concrete months in advance.

I will have to investigate more...

Back to OP's <I can see why folk perhaps feel that pre-purchasing in dollars might make good sense, but surely not when the ticket purchased costs twice as much (or even ten times as much) as an identical ticket purchased on a European website.>
Well then explain to me why Swiss Passes sold thru RailEurope are currently (last time i checked and has been so for a few years) significantly cheaper here than at stations in Switzerland - the exact same pass? Blanket statements like that cannot be made.

>>Larry - are you comparing fully flexible full fare tickets to be used on any train anytime or comparing those to the online discounts that may be train-specific and non-refundable?
>>Often i think when the word 'rip-off' is used it compares full fare tickets to online highly restricted tickets - which are great for the person who has their itinerary in concrete months in advance<<

When I referenced the $138 full fare ticket from Cochem to Bad Harzburg from German Rail, I was referring to a fully exchangeable, fully refundable, no advance purchase necessary ticket. However, the $138 fare is the online price with a €2 reservation. So there is a certain amount of advance purchase involved, although it is a self print ticket, so it can be purchased online up until the time when you don't have a printer available. The same ticket purchased at a counter with a €4 reservation would cost $141. I compared that $138 DB ticket to a $200 RailEurope ticket, which obviously requires more advanced purchase, enough advance purchase for them to be mailed to your home before you leave.

The RailEurope tickets are train-specific and nowhere near unrestriced tickets. The RailEurope website notes that "This fare is non-refundable and non-exchangeable." Doesn't that mean that this ticket is non-refundable and non-exchangeable? Perhaps they are only referring to the reservation fee ($11), but they don't say that specifically. Of course, the shipping fee is also non-refundable, so if you don't use the ticket, as is, you are out at least $20 (about half the entire cost of the DB train-specific, non-refundable ticket).

The RailEurope website also says that in general, "Tickets are refundable after the first day of validity if they have been endorsed as 'not used' by a railway official at the station of departure", so for sure, if you don't go to that station, they are not refundable. They don't specify what the charges are to refund such a ticket.

The website also says, "Refunds and Exchanges are subject to a 5% administrative fee per ticket" and "A 15% cancellation penalty applies to unused tickets received by the issuing office prior to the 1st day of validity." They don't say how much refund you get after the first day of validity, but I doubt they charge less. In most cases I have found, 20% of the fare less reservation, plus the reservation fee and shipping charges are more than the entire cost of a Dauer-Spezial fare.

So, compared to the discount tickets from DB, a ticket purchased from RE will still cost you more if you don't use it, and will cost you a lot more if you do.