Apt Rental Dilemma
 

Please help -- am I in the wrong here and is what I want to do wrong?

I rented an apt and paid several months ago and am not comfortable at all with the person I am renting from.

First it took several emails to get a straight answer as to what floor it was on and whether there were steps leading to the apt --a make or break for me which I explained. Some of my other questions were never answered--I was told once I paid O'd get the information.

There is no feedback on VRBO.

I had heard no word from the owner since paying in March. Finally, I made the time to email her about keys (the owner lives in the states not in the country). I emailed this weekend and it took 3 emails to get a response. The response now is that the keys are in a box outside the door. I asked who the contact in the city is, or apt manager in case there is an issue and for the address. I was merely told all the info I needed was on the public website. Indeed the address is on the website, but no word on a manager.

I am increasingly uncomfortable about this arrangement and just want to scrap it and try to find a different flat--I leave in a week.

I had googled the owner and perhaps she is just a flighty artist, but still. I also get that this is a trust thing on both our ends--she is trusting us with the apt, which in the photos does look nice, but I am completely unclear as to who is doing the upkeep on the place, who is the contact, and just generally uncomfortable about the whole thing with lack of communication.

My gut tells me to back out and find something else, but at the same time I feel that is a douche move and bad karma.

Any thoughts are appreciated--even if they are flaming me for wanting to back out. FWIW, I paid via paypal on Amex--not cash.

Thanks!!

This is all about you and your gut feeling that you had since day one apparently. There are hundreds of reviewed apartments out there..was this one of them? Had you read anything about it beforehand? No one can tell you what you need to do in this situation; either go w/ your "gut" and back out knowing you may lose your money or hope for the best and have a plan B when you get there if your gut feeling turns out to be true.

the parenting advice I ever got was 'trust your instincts'. I think this holds true in this instance.

I would:
a) review possible backup plans - either other hotels or apartments

b) email her that you want a phone conversation in the next 2 days. If she's in the states, that should be easy. Tell her if you can't have this conversation, then you are backing out. Be prepared to do so. Be prepared with a list of questions.

c) be prepared to take a financial hit should these things not work out.

d) have a backup plan in case you get there and aren't happy. even have phone numbers of other apartment rental agencies that may be able to do something on the fly if need be.

I'd be wary... sounds like you already are.

The whole instinct thing is what is getting me. I posted about the apartment here prior and no one had stayed there but the feedback I received was along the lines of they don't know who you are either--which is fair.

I just contacted another apt to check availability and if it is available am inclined to take it and just tell the initial person that our plans have changed due to an injury--which is true--my knee is blown out and I am back in a brace. While I am not canceling my trip, just going to wreck my knee to the fullest extent possible, I'm not lying either.

I have not been contemptuous with this person and would prefer not to even if it is being fairly passive-aggressive. I don't think she is trying to rip us off--it just seems like she does not know what she is doing and is new to the whole apt rental business, it is just a crappy situation and I don't know if I am being paranoid or "wrong" about the way I want to handle this...

It's not a matter of right or wrong. It's a matter of what you're comfortbel with.

The only question is - are you prepard to take the financail hit. Obviously, at this point - she can't rerent the apartment and you will have to pay for it.

ttt for any other thoughts, especially from someone like ncounty who does rent out.

Can you please post a link to the apartment so that we can all take note of which one it is, thanks

I would be nervous. For one thing, there is no manager listed on the website and therefore, they told you an untruth and, more important, there may not be a manager so you are in trouble if something goes wrong. What happens if you lose the keys, or if a fuse blows?

This looks like an agency to me, and not a private rent-by-owner. The place looks unlived in on the pics..but perhaps they are just great cleaners!

Just my own opinion, and there is a good chance that all would be well but if you have other options I would explore them. Cas you get a refund from the cc company?

Hi cherry,

i really understand your dilemma. for our rental in Venice this year we went through an owner rental site, [prices were the most reasonable] and I had a few qualms. we ended up going for one owned by a Brit with a bank a/c here - so I could sue easily if it all went t---up. [it worked out well with the euro exchange rate too as it happened].

our owner wasn't the best at replying to e-mails either and I had to get a bit insistent at one point- jist before i paid the money. After that though he was fine and very helpful, unlike your person.

what exactly did the web-site say about the key? cleaning? management?

is the owner in breach of any essential terms of the contract which might allow you to cancel and get your money back?

the bottom line is how uncomfortable do you feel? and how big a hit will you take if you go for somewhere else? - you might of course get a good last minute deal which will sweeten the pill a bit as there must be some renters out there who want to rent out their vacant properties.

AT the very least, I would book a hotel with a "kind" cancellation policy - even if you forfeited the first night's lodging, it would be worth it for the peace of mind.

good luck,

regards, ann

PS - you asked for feed-back from renters on this site - I can definitely say that we try to answer queries from our customers promptly and make sure that they understand about the key, cleaning, management etc.

PPS - i just looked at the web-site. strikes me as odd that there are no bookings after the end of May and there are no reviews at all. I'd definitely book a hotel!

I don't see anything about the ad that makes it look like an agency.

Okay, let's say it's just someone who doesn't care about customer service, not someone who is making up a website and photo to get money -- that's what you get when you book from a private owner you don't know. They are private owners, and not necessarily professionals, and an agency often is better, at least they are a business.

IN any case, if you paid for it, I don't think anyone can blame you for wanting to back out because you won't get anything and will lose all your money, right? Since it looks okay (and I assume you know the location is fine), I'd go and if something is wrong, move to a hotel, I suppose. Maybe everything will be fine, after all. I'd just go with a list of at least six hotels I'd checked out.

The owner never said there was a manager, so they didn't lie to you. She just told you everything you needed to know what on the website. That's her attitude.

YOu are probably wondering this yourself, but why would you rent a place from someone without asking simple questions, like who is the manager, or what to do if a problem. I wouldn't imagine all apts with private owners do have managers on location.

The owner lists a phone number, so what happens if you call it? Does she hang up on you? It's in Calif (and is a Verizon cellphone number).

I know--for Berlin though, there is only one apt on the site that actually has rental dates filled in on the calendar. She is more of a question avoider rather than anything else--there is no contract. She answers what she wants and doesn't answer other questions. I have to just ask over and over until i get a response. I'm at the point of just not bothering to email and wait, email and wait, and so forth.

I had some issues at first with her non-responsiveness and then wanting payment in full up front 3 months in advance which I thought was weird, but other posters here said that was normal. Gah--this vacation is supposed to relieve my stress, but it is just getting worse.

I super paranoid at this point--like, has it been cleaned paranoid. I have no clue when the last person stayed there as the calendar has never been blocked out that I noticed save for my dates.

I emailed another rental that cost more, but lists as design luxe and it's my birthday trip so I don't care. I am waiting for a reply on the other rental. If I cancel I will get refunded through Amex...I just want to be ethical and not a bad renter. Then again, if it were a hotel, I'd cancel in a second.

Christina: You are correct--I do not think this is an agency, but a private owner who is kinda flaky. In out initial correspondence/agreement I was told there was a manager in the city and that I would have keys mailed to me and the contact once I paid. Now no answer on the manager ("everything [I] need to know is on the website" and the keys will just be hanging out. I'm not all worked up about the keys, rather--who is taking care of this place.

I can imagine walking in and it being like some Fire Island share where we have to do laundry and clean the place upon arrival.


Yes--my bad for renting it to begin with.

Haven't read the full tread - but just one cautionary tale about another vrbo booking.

An acquaintance asked me for advice re a vrbo flat in London. It was also a new listing w/ no feedback from other renters. I told her that the flat looked lovely, was in a terrific neighborhood, was very cheap for the size/location and that no feedback wasn't necessarily a bad thing. Afterall, the owner has to start somewhere.

But I also told her to REALLY question the owner about all the details/arrangements and to decide based on the "vibe" she felt after corresponding w/ the owner. She hemmed and hawed, didn't feel totally secure but at the last minutes wired a sizable deposit. W/i 12 hours she got an e-mail from vrbo saying the listing had been suspended and the situation was "under investigation".

Seems the flat simply does not exist - at least not for rent. She lost her deposit.

So if you have a bad sense about this - I'd go w/ your gut feeling.

To go with flaky--I was charged in euros so that we both could get dinged on the exchange rate! After she asks me if I am in the states after 3 emails that state that i am in NYC and list my NYC cell number on the emails!

Have you tried to call the renter? There is a phone number on the website, and then if you google the phone number you get the artist's studio, address and all.

I'd try to call them before backing out.

Yes, call the owner, the telephone is right there in his website...he apparently lives in San Francisco and from a google seach, he seems to be a sculptor.

How will phoning the owner prove anything one way or the other?

The artist/owner might be totally legit, but talking to him won't solve cherrybomb's dilemma of having a "bad vibe". In my example, the woman exchanged many e-mails and a few phone calls.

the "pay before getting additional information/description" would be a red flag to me.

oops! I meant owner not renter. Dur.

Still think it's worth it to try to call. :)

I wouldn;t assume you can get your money back. What does your contract say? Can you cancel for no reason without penalty? (At this point you have a bad feeling - but no proof there is anything wrong - and I doubt AmEx can do anything for you.)

nytraveler - I was actually thinking the same thing. You signed a contract, you feel strange about it and now would like to cancel.

Nothing was done that was fraud to date.

If it was me, I would go armed with additional options - everything might be fine - the week might be great - and all is good.

No, I now got an email stating now that the apt is not on the ground floor as specified/questioned in 4 emails. My email states to proceed to the apt on the 2nd floor. There is also no apt manager as specified initially. I don't see any reason why Amex will not dispute this on my behalf.

I do blame myself for not trusting my instinct. I also think the owner is flighty/flaky and that is the problem, not that she is trying to rip me off.

I will see what I can get within the week as far as other accomodations.

I have lived in Berlin for 10 years, and these kind of residential buildings *usually* don't have a manager on-site (like the old concierge in Paris), but some facility management company being in charge for repairs and maintenance.
The *usual* procedure would be to call them if anything major goes wrong (water, electricity, and so on). What you cannot expect will be a full-service maintenance, e.g. when one light bulb will go dark or when the TV breaks down. Maybe the owner has a local person you can get in touch with also for those minor things, but it's *usually* not the facility management's business.

Since you pay extra for final cleaning, and no regular maid service is advertised, I would assume that you will indeed have to do your own laundry and dishes, but you won't have to clean the apartment yourself upon departure.

While I find the way the owner handles your questions a bit odd and on the low end of "customer service", I would not necessarily assume that it's a scam.

Cowboy that is my feeling - it is low end of customer service - I would not recommend nor use again but do not feel it is a scam.

It's hard for me to guage just what's going on here, but I too think it sounds more like a flaky person than a scam at all.

And honestly, I don't think I've ever rented an apartment for the first time without having a number of 'qualms', mostly all of which resolved themselves. I really don't expect an on-site manager generally and there are certain issues that you just may have to deal with IF they happen -- like lost keys (I'm paranoid about that one) or blown fuses. That's just part of renting an independent apartment to me. And not being on-site doesn't mean the same thing to me as having NO manager.

But frankly I'd lay the cards on the table. Call or send one more email saying you are really dissatisfied and uncomfortable and unless you can get some immediate specific answers you are afraid you must cancel and report your dissatisfaction with VRBO.

No on-site manager would not bother me at all. But thinking the flat is on the ground floor then finding out it is on the 2nd (3rd floor American) - that seems more than just flakey.

Cherry, remember you are renting an apt not an apt hotel. Most do not have local managers and many do not have a local contact..you do fend for yourself with most rentals the exception being some high end operations with high end price tags in which all apts pretty well are full time rentals- Paris Perfect is an example. That being said, I think the last posters advice re expressing your displeasure and laying your cards on the table is good advice. However, as others have said, I dont think this represents fraud and an AMEX refund woulc (and should IMO) be unlikely. A direct approach to the owner, however, is mandatory to solve the problem.

Well, a refund MIGHT be in order if you have in writing that she said it was ground floor and now you find it's two flights up. That's major.

If you have previous correspondence confirming that the apartment is on the ground floor and now learn that it is not, this could be the basis for canceling and requesting a refund (as long as there is no elevator). Everything else sounds pretty standard when renting form a private owner.

Well, I'm 100% with cherrybomb on this one. I'm very surprised it's considered normal for apartment owners to be so unreliable.

She booked and paid for the apartment after being told it was on the ground floor, and after being told there was a contact/manager in Berlin (that's how I interpret "on site manager"- a contact in Berlin, not a literal manager in the building itself)

Now that she has paid, she's being told it's on the second floor, and that there's no contact person in Berlin after all. The owner won't bother answering her questions, just directs her to the webpage. And that only after frequent badgering.

The owner has already proven to be unreliable by email. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence, when there is no one you can reliably contact during your stay in case something happens.

Granted I don't have much experience renting vacation apartments but I just rented from owners in Paris and have booked an apartment in London from the owner on vrbo. Maybe I've just been extraordinarily lucky so far, but I would be unhappy if I were in cherrybomb's shoes.

Thank you Apres--you were able to fully restate my issues.

I of course do not expect a concierge, I'm not that high maintenance. There is no cleaning fee nor contact in Berlin--who cleans the place? Other than my own dishes and such, which I expect to do--I am wondering who is doing laundry/cleaning prior to arrival. I asked multiple times about any steps and the floor it was on--told 3 steps, ground floor, now it is the 2nd (or 1st euro floor). I was told that there was a contact in Berlin, now there is not..all of this is weird. though, again, I do NOT think it is a scam, just really poor management/lack of interest in communicating. The reason I email is so that it is all in writing, phone call answers would not do me any good in this case.

In either case this may be a moot point as the apt may be fine, though it is starting to look like I may have to scrap the vacation anyways due my knee injury now to the point of so much pain when I walk that I am unsure how I will be able to manage walking around all day and while I am content to sit alone in cafes all day, I'm not so sure that it is the best use of my ff miles.

The husband is calling her either way to deal with the situation tonight and find out hat the deal is.

I kind of doubt if you would get a refund from Amex, but you never know. I just don't think they want to be lawyers, exactly, and this would be a comlicated case if you would expect a refund because of something that really wasn't in the contract you signed (ie, emails), and while the difference in floors would be substantial for a knee problem, I just don't know if Amex would consider that a reason to dispute the charges.

You could always ask them though.

The reason I suggested calling wasn't to prove anything, but because the main issue seemed to be some questions you wanted answered.

I'll admit I have never asked who was cleaning an apt. I rented nor did I care. I think that's kind of unusual to demand details like that. I wouldn't rent from a private owner, myself, though, I have only rented from agencies and I do that for a reason. I want professionals with an address and business, etc., and I use agencies that actually have offices in the cities where I rent (well, only Paris). Lots of folks love VRBO but you take that risk when you rent from some total stranger over the internet, who isn't a real business.

I think it would be normal to want to know what to do if something really drastic happened -- like the plumbing broke and the apt flooded or something. I have always had those contacts with phone numbers etc before I signed a contract, it was in the paperwork.

NO harm is trying to back out and seeing what happens, I agree. But legally not sure you can expect anything. Having bad vibes isn't a reason to get a refund on Amex, unfortunately. I also wouldn't have done this without buying travel insurance.

Regarding cleaning, I've noted on more than one VRBO website there has a been a mention of "we keep our costs low by expecting each renter to thoroughly clean the premises before they leave to reduce having cleaning fees". While at first glance that may sound good, what I take it is -- you'd better hope the previous tenants didn't have an early morning flight or train to catch or the place will be a mess. How many people are really going to scrub the bathroom and shower, and mop the floors the way a professional cleaner would? No thanks. I avoid those places and don't mind a separate required cleaning fee. Don't think of it as a fee for cleaning up AFTER you, but rather as one for getting it really clean BEFORE you.

I agree, Patrick. I would never rent with that stipulation either. I certainly don't want to have to clean an apartment before departure even though I am always careful to clean up after myself.

Oh goodness, just the thought of that grosses me out. I would not rent that way either!

I have used with great sucess VRBO - but other then a local rental we use for a beach house - each has been handled by an agency.

The VRBO website you gave us clearly states a €50 cleaning fee.

You can expect a CLEAN apt upon arrival, with everything ready and clean to use, from dishes, pots, and pans to toilets or bath tubs.

Most apt will have usual cleaning utensils and a vacuum cleaner, though, which you can use if you feel like it, or if you spilled something.

Since you will pay the € 50 cleaning fee, you can leave the apt "dirty" upon departure.

hi again,

on the question of cleaning, as both a renter and a rentee i find it extraordinary that there are places where you have to pay extra for this. who wants to rely on the previous customers' standards of cleanliness? if you're leaving a place, you're not going to be that meticulous, especially if you've got kids/spouse/pets wanting to get on the road.

the industry standard in the UK is that cleaning is included, and quite right too. i have to confess that when we left the apartment we rented in Venice recently, we did not clean or even tidy up particularly, as we had paid an extra 65E for someone to do it.

cherry - what have you decided to do?

regards, ann

ps i hope this doesn't spoil your trip. Berlin is a great place!

"on the question of cleaning, as both a renter and a rentee i find it extraordinary that there are places where you have to pay extra for this"

annhig, I think we're talking a matter of semantics here.
If a place charges 450 pounds a week including cleaning or 425 pounds a week plus 25 pound cleaning fee, it's all the same to me. Don't think for a minute that if a place hires professional cleaning that you're getting that for free just because it isn't spelled out-- it's simply already been added into the price. I was simply saying that many places add for cleaning but generally make it required. And that I'd avoid a place that gives people the option of NOT paying for cleaning but doing it themselves. I think you clearly agree that's not a good idea.

I always clean up the apt but also wouldn't take a place that I was expected to clean myself--I assume the cleaning is included, though as it was pointed out there is a cleaning fee I did not see.

I am going to my ortho today to see what he says about even traveling.

I have a backup apt I found with an elevator though it is in a different area--on the mitte/p-berg border. The husband will be calling the original owner to get hard answers tonight. I am inclined to take the other apt with an elevator. I have travel insurance through my card plan. It is a crapshoot--it will be fine if we don't take it and a nightmare if we do--the law of nature.

I do disagree that this is all an issue of my "gut" feeling though--there was mis-information given throughout the exchange regarding the apartment.

oh--and I also take some responsibility for only asking about the floor and whether there was a contact in the city. Then again--those were the only concerns I had when renting. Though it was slow--I received answers, though those answers have now changed since paying.