Apartment hunting in Paris
 

Three friends and I are planning a late spring trip to Paris. We would like to rent an apartment;but, with the new rules is that still an option? Can anyone recommend a service or site from which we can safely rent?
Thank you.

From this week
Dear Parler Paris Reader,

We all knew deep down in our hearts that something had to give...the city officials simply couldn't continue to be as unjust, unfair and nonsensical as it has been regarding their policy on short-term apartment rentals. Since November of 2009, when the laws on the books first came to light, when the housing department began to follow up on denouncements by neighbors and then take on the full-blown campaign waging war against innocent homeowners, we have prayed for some light at the end of the long, dark tunnel that seemingly led to nowhere.


Personally I have been seriously affected, having sold two treasured properties that took a lot of time, money, effort and heart to create and manage as a result of being 'discovered' by the team of 20 people Madame le Maire Hidalgo appointed to ferret out offenders -- one of which was meant for my retirement...and now long gone. In addition, our property owners, the foreign buyers who have a deep love and appreciation of Paris and France, who invested their hard-earned bucks in a "pied-à-terre" they could enjoy themselves and rent when available, had their 'hands bitten' by the very city they fed.

The anger has not sat well with me, nor with the thousands of others like me for whom this has negatively affected. Now, finally, there seems to be light at the end of this tunnel.

If you are not aware of the challenge we have faced, let me refresh your memory or put it in simple terms. According to the current regulations, a primary residence can be legally rented short-term up to four months a year in total. A property holding 'commercial usage designation' can be legally rented any duration. A secondary property can legally be rented one year or nine months to a student, but no less of a lease is legal.

I've written about this extensively in our Nouvellettres® and long ago posted a petition to submit to Madame Hidalgo.

The regulations mean that as a tenant, if you want to live in Paris less than one year, you were not entitled to housing. That goes for the thousands of individuals who come here for work or education and those who need temporary housing of any sort. They are virtually relegated to a hotel or commercial property. One is entitled to stay in France 90 days with no visa, but with nowhere to live except outside the city limits or accommodations unfit for long-term housing.

This also means that suddenly all of those earnest investors and property owners are operating illegally and have to make certain choices: 1) continue doing what they were doing until caught; 2) stop renting their property at a loss of revenue which covers the operating costs; 3) obtain commercial usage designation for their property (near to impossible to achieve) plus pay the city heavy licensing fees or 4) sell their property.

As a renter of short-term properties for vacation or otherwise, your choices became more limited as legitimate professionally managed properties came off the market while more and more owners offered their own unprofessional principal residences for short-term rental. Airbnb boombed while long standing rental agencies suffered (such as ours, Parler Paris Apartments and our partner site, Paris Sharing).

I am familiar with one agency in Paris -- one of the first to offer luxury rentals as long ago as 1998, fully licensed by the city to operate, a company which collected and paid all its taxes and was forced out of business by the city. City agents knocked on the doors of the apartments and harassed the innocent and unsuspecting renters. The company had to sell off all their properties, mostly located on the two islands in the Seine, shut down its operations and move to another country to operate -- where they found success. The properties that the company sold off naturally became short-term rentals...illegal ones, of course.

After six years of living this 'hell,' this past week we received an unofficial notice from a member of the SPLM -- the Syndicat des Professionnels de la Location Meublée -- a lobbying organization that was formed in 2009 to combat the unfair regulations, that in June of this year the French Prime Minister Manuel Valls ordered a study by the Inspection Générale des Finances (IGF), an interdepartemental auditing and supervisory body in France.

You can follow the progress of the study on the official Web site.

In summary, the first study concluded that:

a) The demand for short to medium term furnished rentals exists and is legitimate

b) No such offerings are possible within the current legal framework

c) The short-term rental of "résidences secondaires" (whether the owner is Parisian or not) would help to satisfy that legitimate demand, without taking housing off the market for long-term rental (which by definition cannot take place in résidences secondaires).

The recommendation of the IGF is to create a new lease called "Location Temporaire" that would be valid for rental durations of one week to six months, for example. They estimate that some 7,600 apartments would be concerned (on top of the "résidences principales" in which up to four months of short-term rental is already allowed -- a figure not high enough to impact long-term housing.

As a counter-measure, they propose to eliminate the furnished rental "niches fiscales" (i.e. amortization and micro-BIC régime).

Conclusions to the study are expected in late January. We are all hoping and praying for positive results. For me, personally, it's too late. I fed the city with my own efforts and have been personally and directly responsible for bringing in hundreds of millions of euros into the city's economy thanks to the hundreds of clients with whom we have worked since 2002 to help them purchase and maintain a property in Paris for their own pleasure and profit. Then, the city of Paris bit my hand.

If the study can evoke an amendment to the regulations that will be fair and equitable to everyone, then these past six unjust years can be forgiven and everyone can breathe deep and take in the fresh air. Potential investors can feel safe again to show Paris how much we all love the city.

Let's face it, it's tough not to love Paris, in spite of a few ignorant (and thankfully temporary) politicians.

You can read the report (in French), and read Manuel Valls' mission letter (in French).

A la prochaine...

Vacationinparis is who I use and will continue to use.

Merci beaucoup!

Try VRBO, a legitimate agency and only deal through the website. I recently rented a 5th ar apartment via VRBO for next October.

http://www.vrbo.com/vacation-rentals..._BqxoCx3Pw_wcB

hpeabody:>>Try VRBO, a legitimate agency and only deal through the website. I recently rented a 5th ar apartment via VRBO for next October.<<

You are quite mistaken. VRBO is not an agency. They are merely a listing site just like airbnb. They don't rent anything - they only hook you up w/ owners.

<i>If the study can evoke an amendment to the regulations that will be fair and equitable to everyone, then these past six unjust years can be forgiven and everyone can breathe deep and take in the fresh air. </i>


Fair and equitable to everyone as long as <i>everyone</i> a wealthy foreigner who purchases an apartment from a local resident, subdivides it, and sees monthly investment revenues increase four to six times from where they were when a French citizen lived there.

Yes, the French; those inconsiderate souls who take issue when vacationing foreigners invade their buildings. You are absolutely right, many of these illegal landlords have faced enforcement from the mayor´s office. But many, if not most, of the complaints the mayor´s office receives about illegal rental activity are from angry citizens, you know those people who actually live, work, pay taxes and vote, who don´t want their homes, their buildings and their neighborhoods turned into come-and-go housing for wealthy foreigners.

The problem is so acute that is the French government that tightened laws against short term apartment rentals, not the city of Paris. Imagine legislation in the US, sponsored by wealthy foreigners, which attempts to promote foreign interests over that of the citizenry.

I maintain a house in the US in a city that absolutely forbids any and all short term rental activity. It is even illegal to rent to a student who attends the university only three blocks away. The French should stop pandering to special foreign interests and tighten ALUR, the law against vacation apartments, to include penalties for agencies who knowingly rent illegal apartments.

Is it any wonder Adrian Leeds espouses the view expressed in Parler Paris? If anyone ever benefited hugely from illegal rentals, it was she. It's all well and good that short-term rentals have a dream of "living like a local," but it has been and remains to be at the expense of Parisians themselves.

Get yourself a completely legal apart-hotel and let Adrian Leeds sort out her own mess.

I too use Vacation In Paris . It is located in the US and you pay in advance in dollars, get the keys before you leave.and have the number of a local agent who is always available to help

Isn't Paris Perfect also legit? I haven't rented from them myself, but they're very open about what they do and they seem to be above board. OTOH, they say nothing about these specific regs in the FAQ and they do have a page on their website reaching out to owners who'd like to join the PP "family."

No ax to grind, just curious, as they do have some fans here on Fodors (or did, anyway).

Vacationinparis has some great deals right now. It was easy because they are in NJ. We did a last minute trip in Oct and called them and they found us a place to stay. We loved it even though it was the 14th. I would stay there again. Just don't answer your door. I read that is what airbnb were telling their clients. :)

That doesn't sound too relaxing, though, does it? "Just don't answer your door." It would make me edgy the whole time I was indoors, I think.

Does all of this boil down to tourists never being able to rent a real Paris apartment again? It's Citadines or a hotel? (I am by no means a "wealthy" tourist; the types of places I have stayed in were simple and budget-y, and I have to scrimp to afford to go at all.)

I would miss having the freedom of a flat; it might make me choose other destinations.

Of course, I see that it is better for the people who actually live there, and no, I don't expect them to sacrifice a decent place to live so tourists like me can pretend for a while....

It appears I may have missed the point here. It's become very confusing the more I search on it. I have an apartment rented for next October for 9 days and on deposit through VRBO. The apartment owner is in the US and has owned the apartment for about 10 years. His intention is for rental purposes and not truly his residence (except on occasion when he visits Paris himself) I rented this apartment in early 2014 without any problems. Everything is being done through the VRBO website including payment. Is this type of situation what is "illegal" now? Should I be concerned?

As noted, VRBO is just a referral service, not the owners of apartments. If you are concerned about the legality of your rental, and you should be, you should contact the owner and get his/her assurance that he/she is in compliance with ALUR.

Does it feel good to be on the side of the righteous now, St. Cirq, after renting in Paris all those years??

'we received an unofficial notice '

hmm..

I'd rather believe some French sites than one from a US lady living from rentals that she herself says are illegal. I seem to recall that she made sign contract for one year then would tear them up after one month, I may not be remembering correctly - somebody has a better memory than me ?

'Parler Paris' - is it supposed to sound french ?
I went onto this site - there is not even a french translation or is there ?

Ah : now I get it : it is not for me :

'Adrian Leeds Group® provides comprehensive property services for Anglophones who desire to live, work or invest in France.'

I'm Francophone...

Parler Paris is supposed to sound French but it is a very odd phrase. I guess we are supposed to cry tears over this person who lost their cushy illegal rental business, and has just been living in "hell", investing and buying up properties in Paris to rent out to tourists. Makes as much sense to feel sorry for any criminal who lost some lucrative business.

If you are concerned, you need to ask the owner, obviously, that property described from VRBO does sound illegal if it is mainly used for vacation rentals. Doing something through VRBO or not is irrelevant in terms of its legality, nor that there were no problems 5 years ago. IN fact, most illegal rentals won't have problems, they can't crack down or know about them everywhere that easily.

The idea that one cannot vacation or visit cities and enjoy them unless one rents an apt. is ridiculous.

While I love Paris, and we regularly return, I wouldn't hesitate to simply transfer my vacations to other French towns and cities under 200,000. I certainly won't stay at any hotels in Paris, given the price point and amenities available. I also don't believe Paris officials concern themselves with tourists from an apartment rental standpoint.

We'll have to see if it has the impact to total tourism numbers for Paris if it continues. The Mairie could eliminate the concern and confusion by publishing a list of approved apartments, or give license numbers and the ability to cross check an apartment with its' license number that is advertised on the web. The tourist information center gives all kinds of helpful advice for tourists, I can see that office being specifically helpful in calming fears of renters seeking a short term, legal rental.

If that "ridiculous" was aimed at my comment, Christina, I sure didn't mean to imply that no one could/would/should visit Paris just because he'd have to stay in hotels.

I was only speaking for myself. And I did only say it "might" make me choose other destinations. I've been there a bunch of times already.

Apologies in advance if your criticism was aimed elsewhere.

This has been repeated ad infinitum on Fodor's, TripAdvisor, Rick Steves and all other travel forums - but here it is again:

Any agency that lists property for short term rental and manages the property from another country or wherever the property is actually located, is legal - as long as the agency has formed a corporation and pays appropriate taxes in the country where it accept payment. Listing property for rent on the internet or by any other means for any period of time is not illegal.

What is illegal in Paris (and many more cities), is this:

If the property owner lives full-time in his Paris apartment, he may not rent more than 4 months per year,which is equivalent to his vacation time. The owner is expected to declare and pay taxes on all revenue collected from rentals.

If no resident lives in the property full-time, if the property is only managed by an agency which only rents to tourists who do not live on the premises for at least one year, if the regulations of the building's co-propriete prohibit sub-leases, if a full-time rental tenant subleases without permission from his landlord - this is illegal in Paris.

There are only approximately 600 legal short-term rentals available in Paris. Most of these are in neighborhoods which would not be attractive to the average tourists, or are modern mixed-income housing, converted doctor's offices or other businesses, sometimes located on the ground floor. Many do not contain the "usual tourist necessities or conveniences", and many are not near the usual attractions visitors come to see.

A lot of people recommend places or agencies they have used before in Paris. It should be apparent to most of you reading this that this does not mean they are legal, but are just thinly-disguised attempts at advertising.

At this point, the only legal rentals in Paris - besides the 600 I mentioned earlier - are those rented by bona fide permanent residents (who can prove they have a deed to the property and live there full time), and bona fide "apart'hotels" such as Citadines and Adagio. You should avoid a listing which does not feature a 24/7 front desk service, which looks as if nobody lives there, and whose owner accepts all or part of the rental fees in cash.

So why doesn't the city of Paris maintain a listing so potential renters would know if an apartment is legal or not? How is the average person supposed to ferret this out? IVe been in Paris these last weeks and the absence of tourists due to the recent attacks is noticeable. Business must be down everywhere I would guess. I wonder if they really enforce this law whether in the long term tourism would be negatively impacted? So many people now stay longer term and that is not feasible in a hotel room. I hope the city can figure this out.

Fuzzbucket, as near as I can remember, prior to your time pontificating here, you spent quite a lot of time pontificating on TA. When there, you told of how you used to rent your Paris apartment. Was that before or after your career writing fake reviews? I forget. At any rate, weren't apartment rentals illegal then as well?

You know, I don't mind Sarastro taking a strong and vocal position against rentals. At least he's not a hypocrite as you and St. Cirq are.

Hi there! Sorry if I'm intruding. I saw the question posted and just skimmed through the replies.

I've used VBRO four times in the last two years and have been extremely happy with it. We used it in Paris in the 6th not too long ago for two weeks. We had a great time (before the tragedy). There were three of us (Husband, Daughter and myself). My husband and I had the bedroom and my daughter used the fold out couch in the living room. It was great! It was on the 4nd floor but it had a lift. The kitchen was great to have! We have decided to always rent when we travel to Paris (our next trip will 4th time for us). It was quite a bit more affordable than a hotel which is what we had done the previous three times and we had quite a bit more space. We saved on meals too as we dined in a couple of times when exhausted from walking.

Yes - we know all those advantages of renting flats. Unfortunately it is no longer that easy in Paris.

So what about----
Guest Apartment
Paris Perfect
Paris Address
France for rent
????
Are they the same as Vacation In Paris?

@g8travels - maybe you should READ the replies. No one is disputing the advantages of apartments.

FYI, Happygoin, the only rental I have ever made in a gazillion years of visiting Paris is an apartment in the 20th of a personal friend of mine, and I use it, never for more than a week, when he's legitimately on vacation. How you think you know my apartment rental history is beyond me. For the first 30 years of my visits to Paris I stayed exclusively in hotels. Once and once only, before all this apartment hullabaloo came to light, we stayed in an AirBnB apartment where the owner was in residence - never again.

So yes, I remain on the side of the righteous, if that's how you care to call it. But don't pretend to know my rental history.

Homeaway. Ring a bell, St. Cirq?? The owner may have *become* a good friend. But it didn't start out that way.

Remember...a prevaricator has to have a very good memory.

I have always been astounded at the personal attacks on this forum. Dialogue should be open and allow people with opinions on both sides of an argument to present their points without being personally attacked. Frankly, I thought it refreshing to hear the other side of the story to the one that is constantly pounded in here.

I can see valid points on both sides of the argument. With tourism such a large part of the Parisian economy, I also think that there will be a nosedive in tourism if apartment rentals of a week or two to tourists are virtually eliminated. And, no, to me a concept like Citadines is not a real apartment.

Question for fuzzbucket: "You should avoid a listing which does not feature a 24/7 front desk service." Why in the world does someone who wants an apartment need front desk service? That is a characteristic of a hotel not an apartment. Most B&Bs don't provide this either.

There are opinions and there are laws. I also prefer to stay in a flat if I'm in a city for more than a couple of days. Of course you can book through any of the sites mentioned here. The agencies are all 'legit'. But the apartments they are letting are probably not. If you still want to book one, go ahead, but beware of the potential problems.

There was plenty of tourism before the 'living like a local' thing started.

Paris and it's inhabitants must decide this. The city doesn't exist for tourists.

There are also US cities that have banned short-term lets, for much the same reasons as in Paris.

Question for fuzzbucket: "You should avoid a listing which does not feature a 24/7 front desk service." Why in the world does someone who wants an apartment need front desk service? That is a characteristic of a hotel not an apartment. Most B&Bs don't provide this either.


I'm not Fuzz, but I'll give some insights :
- because it helps when you arrive at 11pm.
I stayed at an appt in the 18th which has a front desk but it closes at 8 pm. So I got a SMS telling me where the key would be : under the mat (true) - since I was searching at the wrong landing, I nearly destroyed all the mats I saw;
- because this frontdesk is equipped with printer and can make an invoice - for a lot of tourists, getting an invoice is not a problem, for me it is a must. I once went to a B&B in Paris, sleeping in a room with the owner in the next, and I got the invoice nr2 of the year. It was july. I'm sure the guys declare all his revenues to the fisc.
- because it gives the impression that the location is legit : if you have a frontdesk, you are in the open, and you have to pay the guy who is there. Hence you must declare revenues to pay the guy.

Face it - most of the rentals are illegal. Whether you care or not is not important, some tourists declare that they have the right to do what they want. Some renters too.
Whether your appartment is still operating or closed by the authorities when you arrive should be a question you have to ask yourself.

As a footnote, I'm disgusted at the level of personal attacks that one can see here. But at least, contrary to TA, posts tend to stay so everyone can make an opinion of the poster.

Happygoin - those sots of personal attacks aren't allowed on Fodors. Unless you are an old/banned Fodorite (which is a possibility) how do you know anyone's rental history?

janisj, St. Cirq goes back a long way on TA. Both she and Fuzzbucket divulged the information I posted here themselves. It's not heresay and they're not personal attacks if they're true, which they are.

Hypocrisy in any form is abhorrent, but especially the self-righteous kind.

So you are stalking her over from TA. Nice. Calling them liars, hypocrites and self righteous ARE personal attacks. Fodors doesn't allow that.

HappyGoin, I have reported your remarks as personal attacks, not only because I find them offensive, but because you have a propensity for not adding anything useful to a conversation about which you know very little. I don't pontificate, though I do admit to being a very fast typist which allows me to get in a lot of information.

Whatever is behind this self-righteous outrage - you were banned from TA as well - won't fly on this forum. Personally vindictive comments are not welcome here. You have never offered any information to add that does not reflect your personal bias on the subject of apartment rentals. You have no facts to add to the conversation, as those of us who live in Paris do, though you rely on your friends who own rental property or occasionally visit here. One of your friends demanded that I defend my work history and my life - to my credit, I responded honestly. The many people who own illegal rentals in Paris, as well as their friends who "help" advertise for them, have not admitted they do so.

I know many of your friends - and know a witch hunt when I see it. It is interesting to see who you do not attack, when some of us repeat the same information. I respectfully suggest that you and your pals find some other way to amuse yourselves.

Back to reality - yesterday, my computer went down before I could add the rest of my comments about what constitutes a legal apartment in Paris:

As I said, listing agencies are not breaking the law by advertising apartments for rent, as long as they pay taxes and city lodging fees.

The clients who rent apartments which do not comply with the new laws in Paris are breaking the law, whether they are aware of the changes in the laws or whether they care or not.
However, clients who rent illegal apartments will not be prosecuted or evicted. It is up to them to decide how they feel about making a moral decision based on the fact that "everybody else does it and I don't know anybody who's been caught yet."

The people who are prosecuted are tenants who sublease without the permission or knowledge of their landlords, as well as the property owners who continue to list apartments which do not comply with the new laws, who accept all or a portion of the rental fee in cash, and who do not pay taxes or city fees in the city where their rental property is located.

Tenants who sublease without permission face eviction, and their "tenants" must leave as well. Property owners are given the chance to stop renting and comply with the new law, but if they continue to rent, are issued significant fines (per day, per rental unit), and may face further penalties.

There is no list of legal rentals, and there is much confusion due to lobbying groups claiming to be working with the city to solve the housing problems. The Mayor's Office is busy trying to compile dossiers on absentee property owners and other fiscal refugees. This takes time, and that's why it will be a long time before a list might become available.

The reason I suggested people look for apart'hotels with 24/7 front desk service is because this means it is a legitimate rental. A large number of illegal rentals are now using the term "apart'hotel" or "on call concierge service" - pretty easy to recognize them, since it's obvious that nobody lives in these apartments. You don't need to use the front desk services unless you want to.
ParisWat's observations were also correct. It's no fun finding out when you arrive that you cannot access your apartment, when you're dead tired and must haul your luggage around for a few hours while trying to eat a sandwich because you don't want to eat in a decent restaurant before you can take a shower.

Citadines and Adagio are clean, basic hotel rooms with a little more space and kitchen facilities, and most of them are located in very convenient and charming neighborhoods. A handful of other charming, legal apart'hotels do exist in Paris. Many people just need a place to relax and a refrigerator, and there are many of those available in budget and moderately-priced hotels in Paris.

Depending on the day the survey is taken, Paris is either the Number One tourist destination or certainly within the Top Three places everyone hopes to visit. If you decide that the ban on short-term vacation rentals in Paris doesn't jibe with your idea of a nice vacation, someone else will be glad to spend the money you won't.

Short-term and vacation rentals worldwide are problematic. It will take time for this "sharing" economy to settle down. In the meantime, it's your choice to either obey the law or not, and take your chances about what kind of vacation you'd like to plan in Paris.

"Personal attacks"? What a bunch of crybabies. The people complaining the loudest about being "attacked" are the rudest ones here.

NewbE
You are not differentiating between rudeness sarcasm and personal attack.

The poster who digs sh!t and throws it on the forum with no regards to the thread but in an attempt to discredit and insult somebody may very well do it politely but will behave like a frustrated despicable b... person.

Her post is just mean and is a personal attack.

When we discuss like nearly normal people and don't share at all the same views we react about what is being said and there is always a level of restraint and of respect that will prevent us to resorting to such foul behavior.

Now you also confuse rudeness with bluntness and sarcasm if you refer to me at least.
I expressly try to remain polite but love to be quite blunt. I am despite being a smart tall and gorgeous tall actor (err) at a slight disadvantage since I have to use a bloody foreign language not as suitably organized to sarcasm s French is. After all the English Kings had to import massively words of French to bring some culture in their language.

So don't think I am being rude when I can't get over subtleties due to my using a second grade language.

Ah semantic again : I wrote the post behaves like ... When I should have said IS in this specific case.
No need to take gloves with such people.

I voluntarily didn't put any emoticons nor 'lol's in order to enhance provocative points.
Add them wherever you like.

Have a good day.

>>"Personal attacks"? What a bunch of crybabies. <<

Fine NewBe -- but apparently Fodors agreed since most of the offending posts have since been deleted, and your post fits the same mold . . .

(and no, I did not triangle anything).

For some people they may be just be learning about the legality issues of Paris apts. What is too bad is that some of these posts on Paris apts do contain helpful info for a tourist trying to figure out what to do and what may or may not be legal. I would imagine that most posters esp first timers will not bother to read thru all the insults both about other posters and tourists themselves to get to those specks of helpful & correct info. And being self righteous really adds nothing of value to someone sorting through all this.

Those of us who post information about the rental situation which we know to be true, are simply trying to present the other side of the coin.

There's a whole lot of information to wade through, and it's hard to make sense of it unless you have access to all the information at one time, and not just snippets and sound-bites.

Unfortunately, reporting accurate information has a negative impact on people who make money from rental apartments in Paris. There are people who specialize in derailing these threads, trying to discredit the posters and relaying hearsay, just so they and their friends won't lose rental income.

It's sad, but that's really all there is to it.