Anti-Semitism in Hungary/Austria?
 

Interested in return visit to Central Europe. Desire to visit Jewish sites where family resided pre-Holocaust. Advice?

Advice regarding?

tt

First, we have not been in Hungary in 20 years.

By most reputable accounts there is a great increase in antisemitic sentiment in Hungary, but few violent episodes.

So the questions become, if you are not Orthodox and have no outward signs that you are Jewish, do you want to spend your money in a country where there is high antisemitic sentiment?

While there are many sources to document this sentiment, here is one, click on Hungary.

http://global100.adl.org/

It is the same reason why we will probably not visit France this decade for the first time since the early 1970's.

IDH and others...if you want to avoid even traces of antiSemitism in most of the world, just don't travel...and wouldn't that be inane!

As Menachem Begin once said..."as usual, the next generation of children in Europe will get their antiSemitism from their mother's milk." Deal with it. I do.

Stu, it is not the past but the present I am discussing.

"As Menachem Begin once said"

Was that before or after he murdered British peacekeepers?

IDH has a point, what advice are you seeking?

As my mother said, which fits Tower's response, if you want to avoid antisemitism, don't go anywhere. Hungary and Romania are unlikely to be worse than most of the rest of Europe. After all, the most popular tourist destinations in western Europe have tons of antisemites and have had an increase in antisemitic incidents in the past 10 years.

Wondering if the Begin statement wasn't from Shamir re: the Poles (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...thing-1.449177). There are reasons the Poles are portrayed as pigs in Maus . . .

Hungary has the largest Jewish community in Central Europe,
mainly in Budapest. Austria has a small Jewish community, mainly in Vienna. Yes there are anti-Semitic incidents in both countries. But, you may find visiting and connecting with the present day Jewish communities rewarding.

For example, if you go to Vienna, visit the Jewish Museum there and take a tour of the Stadtstemple (City Temple), the only synagogue that was not razed on Kristalllnacht. It is an active Orthodox synagogue beautifully restored and the tours are given by members of the Jewish community.

If you go to Budapest, on the Pest side you can tour the Dohany Street Central Synagogue, and museum. It has been restored thanks in large part to the late actor Tony Curtis(his parents were from Budapest). There is a 5 day Jewish Summer Festival in Budapest at the end of August through the beginning of September with various events/concerts at various venues, including the Dohany Street Synagogue.

Have you checked that the "sites" are still there? Many of the little towns of our ancestors are just plain gone. The houses they lived in? The minute the inhabitants were dragged out their "neighbors" rushed in.

I think 330east raises a good point. Are you sure you'd find what you want to see? Or are you just looking for a general view of the places where your ancestors lived?

Loved Budapest and did not feel antisemitism. Hated vienna...anti semitism was very obvious there

Hi tower! How are you?

Agree tat you will be disappointed in sites. Sadly they are gone

About 10 years ago I visited friends in Budapest and we traveled to the small town where my grandmother's family were from. Far out in the countryside, near the NE corner where Hungary, Ukraine & Slovakia meet, I found the people as kind as they could be and happy to be able to show me all evidence of the former Jewish community, including a woman who guided us through her garden, on through her back fence and into the Jewish Cemetery. The cemetery was overgrown but appeared to be intact, no evidence of vandalism and I had no sense that I was unwelcome, quite the contrary. We were also shown the site of the synagogue, since moved to become part of a museum in another town, and what had been the Jewish school. All this from strangers we met on the street who either directed us or guided us.

If you don't speak Hungarian, I suggest you find someone who does who can accompany you. I don't believe it would have been possible without my Hungarian friend. This was also true when I visited the archives in Budapest to request documents, no English-speakers. Without Zoli I don't believe I would have accomplished anything. I normally get along well language-wise in my travels but in these circumstances I would not have.

Put aside your concern and have a wonderful trip.

fear can be very corrosive

wordsmith1, I live in Vienna and am curious about when/where/how you sensed anti-semitic behaviors?

DH and I often take day trips to small Czech, Austrian, Slovakian, and Hungarian villages for one reason or another, and on occasion we come upon a synagogue, often repurposed as a museum or performance venue. On most occasions we will be asked if we are looking for family records if there is someone about; we haven't encountered any untoward behaviors. Just a data point.

As someone who is not Jewish I would really like to learn exactly how anti-semitism was so "obvious" in Vienna and exactly what I missed. I ask this question because I like to at least feel I am aware of such and I do not like the harm that it does <B>to all of us</B> so how about a few more specifics?

Jews are not the ONLY travelers who can decide to avoid some places.

I haven't been to the former Eastern bloc but having watched two BBC documentaries on the former Jewish communities, it would seem that there is a deep fondness and guilt about what happened in their area.

The whole of Europe owes Jews a huge debt.

Unfortunately, the state of Israel has done little since 1948 to encourage a feeling of warmth that should be there. Israel has simply compounded anti Semetic feeling instead of wiping it out.

Unfortunately, the state of Israel has done little since 1948 to encourage a feeling of warmth that should be there. Israel has simply compounded anti Semetic feeling instead of wiping it out.__________________________

Do you mean like being invaded by neighboring countries seconds after statehood was granted in an attempt to destroy the entire country. Or do you mean being invaded on the holiest day of the year in 1967 on multiple fronts. Or do you mean that leaders of countries feel free to say in public that Israel should be destroyed.

While I agree that the present administration in Israel has many flaws, you truly do not know the history of Israel.

Well, the history of the Eilat triangle is a little controversial.

Ah,yes, Caicos. Carrying on the great tradition of blaming the victim.

Apparently the "holiest day of the year" was not recognized by the invaders and I doubt they would have felt the need to do so. I somehow doubt that all that "blame" resides on one side of the very arbitrarily-determined border alone. The tradition of maintaining innocence regardless of one's own acts seems to be a long one as well.

Face facts: the thing is underpinned by contrary religious beliefs but one thing seems to be consistent: "We are the ones whom God says belong here, not you."

Apparently the "holiest day of the year" was not recognized by the invaders and I doubt they would have felt the need to do so.

It was an obvious military tactic.

_________________

IDH, the Yom Kippur War was in 1973 - Egypt et al seeking redemption from the whupping Israel gave them in 1967 after Egypt tried to choke off all oil trade to Israel by closing the Straits of Tiran. BritishCaicos is just manifesting the current European antisemitism that masquerades under the misnomer of antizionism.

The record is clear, Israel BEGGED Arab residents of the Mandate to remain and join the country in 1948 but vast swaths left in the hope that Iraq, Syria, Transjordan, Egypt and Lebanon would throw the Jews into the sea. When Israel regained the Old City in 1967, the Arab leaders were nonplussed when the IDF told them to go back to their homes and go about their business. Israel's citizens have been targets of ongoing terror campaigns since the founding of the state, live within a few miles of "governments" dedicated to the destruction of their country, and still the vast majority of Europeans (who cannot handle their own complicity) feel as BCaicos does. It's reprehensible, but true.

"...the state of Israel has done little since 1948 to encourage a feeling of warmth..."

Yes, survival can be SO annoying.

Sorry for the wrong date.

We were n Hungary in 2008. Stayed in a B&B. One night while in the owner 's kitchen the couple asked in a whisper if we were Jewish. The woman was, her husband was not. She said she did not "advertise" the fact. When we told her we had no trouble in the U.S. (specifically NYC where we live), she was aghast. She couldn't believe we felt no qualms about people knowing we were Jewish. It was a good learning momnt for us. Especially since she felt she had to whisper our whole conversation, and we were in her own kitchen!

I believe there's a huge difference between being a tourist, passing through, and living in a place and in many cases, assimilating. Before going to my family's village, I had dinner in Budapest with a Jewish man whose family was also from there. A few had returned after WWII but then left to live elsewhere, in his case, in Budapest. When they moved, they changed their name, "hungarianizing" it. I suspect being Jewish was not a thing he spoke about as a rule. Many left Europe, as my family had in the late 19th century, and those that stayed paid dearly, so no wonder a habit of being circumspect continues.

<< and those that stayed paid dearly>>

Too true - the Holocaust reached Hungary in 1944. Ghetto-ization and deportment of Hungary's Jews only commenced then because the Hungarian government had been a compliant client state of the Nazis and hadn't been decimating its own Jewish population. And yet, Hungary had the second-largest number of Jews killed in the Holocaust.

FOURFORTRAVEL - I would ask WORDSMITH the same thing:

"wordsmith1, I live in Vienna and am curious about when/where/how you sensed anti-semitic behaviors"

MmePerdu - I agree that being a tourist in a place and living in it are two very different things. I live in NYC yet am rarely in Times Square.

One bright note to counter the sad (to me) revelation I had at the B&B we stayed at.

We took a half day tour of Budapest with a gentleman whose name I forget. He spoke about Hungarian history and Communism. He said how Hungarians harbor anger towards the Russians for killing (number?) of Hungarians. But, he said, what about all the Hungarian Jews who were killed by the Nazi's? The comparison of numbers was stark. Mind you, this man was not Jewish. I appreciated,and was surprised, that he thought this was outrageous.

For those interested in Jewish history in Hungary (fictionalized):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunshine_%281999_film%29

Thanks, Michael! Great cast, now on my Netflix list.

Course Big Russ, we all know you can't be anti Israeli without being anti Semitic.

Well not all of us have pea brains.

Some of us can differentiate between the foreign policy of a sovereign state and the religious beliefs of an individual.

"The record is clear, Israel BEGGED Arab residents of the Mandate"

Crap.

The population of Palestine at the start of the Zionist movement was 8% Jewish, by 1948 it was over 88%.

So as an Arab in Palestine, your homeland is swamped by a migrating population who have suffered an incredible injustice to which you have had no involvement and your expected just to give up your sovereignty?

During which time that migrating population receives huge funding from Stalin and operates a terrorist campaign against a peace keeping force. Your only option as an Arab was to accept citizenship under an alien soveriegnty.

Hardly surprising the Arabs left.

Most of which is academic.

It is black or white.

Some believe Israel should exist in Palestine.

Some don't.

Any amount of discussion will never change a viewpoint.

Sorry some believe Israel SHOULD have existed in Palestine.

I am not arguing it doesn't have a right to exist now.

"Any amount of discussion will never change a viewpoint."

Just what I was thinking when I read your first, above, BC.

In 1948, the mullahs and emirs did not want to take any of the Palestinians in hopes of fermenting future animosities. They got what they wanted.

I hope the poster is getting the information he/she needs. I have tried to give two accounts of my experience a few years ago in Budapest.

BTW - We loved Budapest.

As for Vienna - About 10 years ago we were in Vienna. We went into a very small book store. Looked through some old postcards. The proprietor came out from the back, drunk, and started ranting about the Americans in WWII. We left. Yet we still really enjoyed ourselves in Vienna. And with this we got a taste of a local's harboring anger.

<i>in hopes of fermenting </i>

I thought that alcohol was a no-no for them.