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American Airlines - AArrivederci legroom
If you're planning to fly on American Airlines to get decent leg room in coach to/from Europe next year, time to consider your options.
CEO Gerard Arpey today: "When we launched More Room Throughout Coach, healthy yields and robust business travel were the norm, and both conditions were essential to the success of More Room," "However, times have changed, and we must acknowledge that in today's low-fare environment, having fewer seats on our aircraft has put us at a real revenue disadvantage compared to other airlines." Translated - Less Room Throughout Coach. Given (in many people's opinion) that the AA coach product and routes were otherwise pretty mediocre-to-average, this would seem to remove the last incentive to preferring AA's service over the competition. If comfort (or, frankly, your health) on long flights matters to you, and you haven't got the miles or shillings to upgrade, here's a good link for comparisons of legroom on most airlines: http://www.airlinequality.com/Product/seat_intro.htm I would also expect someone in the industry to respond with more "premium economy" seating at modest price bumps, a la United's and British Air's configurations. My personal view as a frequent AA customer with modest holdings of status and miles is that it's looking a lot like Amtrak or British Rail in the 1970s. How long will the Dominion of the Accountants last? |
Between the recent changes to upgrade for miles policy on AA and the return to LRTC, this somewhat frequent flyer (generally three flights to Europe per year) has no incentive to fly exclusively on AA, as I have for the past several years. I'm trying to view these changes as providing me the opportunity to try out other airlines, especially those who offer "premium economy" such as BA and United.
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Well, this really bothers me because we have flown AA on our last 3 trips to Europe and Hawaii just because of the extra legroom, even when the price was a little higher. In fact, I just got a new Citibank AAdvantage Mastercard to start accummulating miles faster.
OK, so it might not do any good, but I sent a complaint to American about this change and encourage others to do the same. Maybe if enough people say they won't choose AA without the extra legroom, they will back off. Just go to www.aa.com and look under Contact Us to send them an email. It couldn't hurt. |
The extra legroom is the reason that I choose to fly with AA instead of Continental, which would be more convenient for me, I live in Texas.
I have already bought the tickets with AA for my trip to Europe, however,next time I will choose a different airline .. |
I think they did this sometime last summer, and for more flights than just to/from Europe. I read that they also took away the leg room on certain planes to Mexico or the Caribbean. I just bought a ticket last week for a RT from Washington DC to Cancun and might have bought an AA ticket even thought the times were a less convenient than Continental (which is what I did buy) IF they still had more leg room. When I read they didn't any more on the plane for the flight I wanted, I didn't consider them.
I don't understand AA's position since the idea of that was to get customers, I thought (is that what healthy yield means?). If they make the space smaller and lose an advantage, how is that going to increase their yield? Maybe I don't know what yield means in that lingo, but they were only a little cheaper than Continental on my route, which wasn't enough for me to buy them with no other incentive. |
I'll continue to fly with AA -going to London in a couple of weeks. Legroom not a major concern. I'm out of the seat on a regular basis to stretch. Going to London makes up for less room.
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Well, because of several back surgeries, it's especially difficult for me to get comfortable on a plane, even with medication. The extra legroom defintely helps because your knees aren't crammed into the seat in front of you.
I had read that some time ago AA did cut back on the extra legroom in coach on domestic flights but was still offering it on international flights. Now it seems they will have it on neither. |
Point taken. It would be time to check the other airlines to see what gives you the best option. I've never had an uncomfortable flight in my life. The long trips have never bothered me. Coach is fine with me.
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For the average Joe/Jane the good days of roominess in coach on AA are over.
I still can't complain. Domestically and (Canada, Mexico, Caribbean, Bermuda) I get free upgrades, and internationally I do get 8 free certs to upgrade, so for this top elite at least, things have improved, but I do feel for everybody else (also because I see myself dropping to lower elite level in 2006), and I also don't understand their thinking. That was THE ONLY THING that made AA stand out amongst the majors, now it's all the same. The Arpey team that took over AA is full of accountants, short on marketing people. I hope for their sake that extra $1000-2000 on a flight does make a difference (<b>when it actually happens</b>) and it does NOT loose the customers they have NOW!!! Can somebody explain to me how overcapacity leads to adding seats??? AA management is saying that the market still has too many seats, and yet they add more seats???? Am I missing something? |
The lack of leg room isn't paraticularly a problem for me, as I'm fairly short. But that IS a problem is trying to twist into and out of the seats: not good for back and knee problems. That's where the lack of space between seats presents difficulties.
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AAFF
I remember a story on NBC news a few years ago. After Denver opened their new airport they found they weren't using all their runways. The city found it had an extra $10 million sitting around and they decided to add another runway to the airport! And this would be just a downpayment as the total cost of a new runway was $70 million. |
Removing planes from the fleet and adding seats back to the remaining planes means the same number of seats (more or less) divided by fewer takeoff/landing cycles = lower operating costs per available seat mile. But lower operating costs per available seat mile is not the same thing as revenue per available seat mile (RASM). For the numbers to balance one must maintain constant revenue for the sum of available seats. But the degradation of the <i>quality</i> of the product (and that's the part being missed IMO by the yield management people) is directly linked to the <i>quantity</i> of the available product in this case. If the number of total flights is then lowered (which it will be according to GARPey) it means pax will have fewer, less comfortable AA flights. I don't see how, then, the assumption that total number of boardings will remain constant, which is the factor required to hold the RASM line, is likely when the per-passenger experience is so impaired.
People aren't idiots - they'll vote with their butts and go for an overcrowded, pretzels-only airline that flies cheap where they want to go, rather than having to fly to Big D to get anywhere else. Why the hell should I fly to Dallas when I want to go to London or New York? In the past (like last month) I flew through Dallas because I had room for my legs in the back. Now I won't bother. Guess that gives them yet another available seat. FWIW, the adding-back of seats to the planes that currently have MRTC will start just after the new year. The 777 fleet won't lose MRTC until autumn, so if you've booked tickets for next summer, make sure you're on a 777, otherwise. :( |
I was planning to fly AA next June to Rome. When I look at AA's website, on the flights I want it says "AA More Room." Does this mean that if I were to buy a ticket today under the premise of more leg room, they could change it? Is that even legal???
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Jocelyn, what do you mean "is that even legal"? They aren't saying what it has more legroom than! In fact it is quite true that you will still have more legroom in AA coach than if you packed yourself in a cardboard box and traveled to Europe via UPS, but maybe not much more!
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Thanks for the info, Gardyloo. We plan to fly to Frankfurt in May so maybe we'll stil get that extra legroom. Still don't know what to do about accummulating AA frequent flyer miles with that new MC that I've just paid $50 for. Oh well, I guess I'll just try to get a free ticket in my first year and then cancel after that. No sense paying extra if I can fly non stop on CO from Houston and end up with the same space.
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Unfortunately, I have already bought my tickets for next year trip.. Cannot change them either..so I am stuck with AA..
After my trip, I will say : Au Revoir AA and Bonjour Continental.. |
I still think that all of you who are complaining should send your sentiments to AA directly. If enough people do this, then maybe they will rethink their position. Power to the people
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Having flown both airlines, I prefer coach service on AA to first class on CO. Why? The service and food in CO's first class left a lot to be desired.
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I booked air from LAX to Rome with AA because of the leg room. Not so much for me but my husband is 6'2".
Our last 5 flights have been on AA for that reason. After that flight it's back to flying with the cheapest airline. |
I don't understand why more airlines don't have some seats with a little more leg room for those who need/want it and are willing to pay a reasonable amount for it. First class fares are absurd for most people.
Our next trip to Europe will be in "premium economy " on Zoom Airlines. For about 70 euro more per person per flight we get a 36 inch seat pitch and other goodies. |
Bad news, AA one of my favorite airlines but not only because of leg room...I'll still continue to fly them.
For those of you travelling in the near future, AA is not going to run out tomorrow and refit all their planes, that in itself is very costly. And when they do it may not be so bad, not like when United did their cramming measure a few years back and found it was not only uncomfortable but painful for some passengers. I'm sure it will be within reason. |
bettyK - I took your advice about contacting AA Customer Service Online. Let's see if they reply.
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Gardyloo, isn't it the case that all of the butt-voting is done and the result is that people want the lowest price, no matter what? |
Here's my question, i booked a flight for next week to Italy that says more leg room flight. Are you saying the planes seat have been reconfigured and it no longer has more leg room OR is this something that will happen over time. Are they still advetising more leg room for specific flights and have changed it without changing what it says on AA.com for those flights?
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The re-installation of the seats that were removed to make MRTC will begin on MD-80, 737 and 767 aircraft beginning after New Years. The 777s will retain MRTC until at least October 2005. Of course it takes quite a while to refit the airplanes because they don't want to remove too many from service at one time. But winter is a slow time anyway, so I wouldn't expect too many planes (except the 777s) will still have MRTC by spring/summer. Look at your booking to see what aircraft you've reserved. Generally markets like Rome and Paris have been served largely by 767 airplanes. Note that AA had already reconfigured its 757s and A300s to LRTC - these are the planes used on most tourist runs and in the Caribbean now.
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This is very disapointing. I just visited AA's website and left feedback how unhappy this makes me.
The more room in coach policy was the reason I have used AA as much as possible. Keith |
This is the response I received from AA yesterday, hours after I sent my email to them:
Dear Mrs. Kubiak: Thank you for contacting us. We consider feedback from our customers to be very important. We are currently experiencing higher than normal email communications from our customers and our response to you may be delayed. We'll reply as soon as possible and we appreciate your patience in the meantime. Just a reminder, if your inquiry involves an upcoming trip or imminent travel arrangements, please telephone our specialists at 1-800-433-7300. They will be able to assist you. (If calling from outside the United States or Canada, please refer to Worldwide Reservations Phone Numbers listed on AA.com.) This is a "post-only" email response. Please do not reply to this message. Sincerely, Greg Clark Customer Relations American Airlines Maybe the "higher than normal email correspondence" means that there are a lot of pissed off customers complaining about the changes they want to make! |
yeah, sure, I suppose you believe it when recorded messages on the phone tell you the wait is 30 min due to higher than normal calling. It's just because they don't hire enough people to answer phones or emails. That's a form letter they send to any email message, it doesn't mean anything. You'll probably never near from them again.
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Jeez, Christina, who peed in your cornflakes this morning?
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<b>Christina</b>,
You are correct for the most part, but you are incorrect about not getting a reply. She will get a reply within a day or 2. AA is good about that. I would not expect any new info with the reply. I believe that written letters do get more personal attention. When I really have a problem with AA and the great Executive Platinum desk is unable to get some kind of acceptable response from the department that I have a problem with, I do write a letter to the customer service desk as well as send copies to head of the department and the CEO of AA. It's amazing how quickly things get corrected. In this case an e-mail is sufficient as it's not really a specific problem related to your experience, and it will be filed, but I'm guessing AA will stick with this regardless of how many e-mails/letters they get. On the bright side, there was a preliminary announcemet made by Arpey that AA already has made a decision to install new business class seats as well as video-on-demand for all three classes of service on their 777s. Unforunately no more details at this time, but I assume these will be fully flat bed seats. That would be wonderful. Something like BA business seats perhaps. |
is this really shocking? it's a crappy airline, with terrible service. they misplaced my bags on 4 straight flights earlier this year and virtually all flights into DFW sit on the ground (after landing!) for at least thirty minutes before parking at the gate because they never have available gates. I can't imagine anyone ver makes connections at DFW unless they have 90 minutes between flights.
Unfortunately I moved to Dallas many years ago and unless I want to connect through another city I am stuck with them forever. |
AAFF - From what I'm reading on flyertalk.com, all the just announced new Japan service (ORD-NGO, DFW-KIX) will be on "Atlantic"-configured 777s. I think that means all of AA's 777 should be in the better "Atlantic" version soon.
As for legroom, this is not surprising at all. The big legacy carriers rely on corporate accounts and business travelers for their revenue, and price and schedule is most important for the corporate's travel office. The employee often has little to say about which airline to pick. The extra legroom makes no difference to the penny-counters. And over-capacity isn't really the problem right now. It's high cost and low fares. Most of the major airlines are filling up 80% of their seats, which is excellent. And even higher on Atlantic and Pacific routes. So, removing seats are simply cutting revenue. |
For those who are interested, I did receive a reply from AA. It may be a "canned" response but it was quite lengthy. Here is part of what they said:
If we are to remain competitive and increase our strengths, we are determined to find a viable balance between cost-competitiveness and our customers' preferences. As a result, we made the difficult but prudent decision to add seats back on our MD80s, 737s, 767s and 777s. We are convinced that there was no better alternative -- we had to correct this inefficiency. However, we will be adding back fewer seats than we initially removed. For instance,on MD80s and Boeing 737s, we removed two rows of seats and we're adding back only one row. The result is that there will still be more legroom in the coach cabin than there was before February 2000 (when we first began removing seats). Also, with the addition of more seats, we will have more seats to sell at lower fares. We hope our customers will consider this to be a reasonable tradeoff. |
<i>However, we will be adding back fewer seats than we initially removed. For instance,on MD80s and Boeing 737s, we removed two rows of seats and we're adding back only one row.</i>
Something about lies, damned lies and statistics comes to mind. They will be adding back fewer seats than they took out only on MD80s and 737s. The 777s and 767s that fly to Europe (as in the Europe board on Fodors) will have all their removed seates replaced. So fine, you can ride from Dallas to New Orleans with 33 inches of legroom, for all of the one hour and nineteen minutes it takes, but Dallas to Gatwick, nine hours and fifteen minutes? Or Chicago to Tokyo, thirteen hours and twenty minutes? Oh, uh - sorry. Have a drink and forget your worries, chaps. That'll be $5 please. What? You don't pay for drinks on that other carrier? And they offer you another inch or two of knee room? Didn't your father tell you to Buy American? What are you, some kind of commie? |
Gardyloo, they did say "for instance". Maybe there's a slim chance this also means some of their other planes too like the 777???
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No, it's just doublespeak from the writers of form letters - the one you got is the one that for now is the "gold standard" of AA responses to complaints about LRTC.
On the conference call (quarterly financial report carried on the financial networks and AA.com) Chairman Arpey and the other suits present said all the 777s and 767s will get LRTC. <b>Only</b> the 737s and MD80s will have a few less seats added back in, and only then because they're adding rows in first class and the geometry won't allow full restoration of all coach seats. The 777s don't turn into Mr. Hyde until next autumn; the 767s start getting refitted right after New Years. |
I am taking the 767 to Rome next May..
If I knew this before I bought my tickets, I would have chosen Continental and leave from Houston instead of going up all the way to Chicago and then to Rome.. |
You and thousands of others. Write them and tell them; only consumer action will make a difference in the long run.
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Writing and whining means nothing. The consumer has spoken in the last few years when they haven't given AA a financial advantage to keep the program. If they've been packing their planes with high-fare paying customers, then they won't switch back. That did not happen, and therefore the experiment has to end. Simple as that.
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Well, I seldom whine, but my suggestion was for customers like kismetchimera to write them and tell them that because they will now offer an <i>inferior</i> product to many people (i.e., same discomfort in coach, generally the same or poorer in-flight service, but with less convenient schedules due to hub-and-spoke operations rather than direct flights), then discretionary travel dollars will be going elsewhere than AA.
Rkkwan, you're right - I don't think complaining and asking for them to reverse their decision will work, only the denial of trade will get the attention of the accountants on Mahogany Row at AA. But people should tell them why they're taking their custom elsewhere, then just do it. Once this change is done, and absent any offsetting improvements in service in coach, just wait until the 2006 passenger satisfaction surveys are released. Hoo boy. |
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