I took my niece to Holland at age 11 and my father told me it was a waste to take a kid that young. The problem was for me that my parents (yes, my father) had taken us each year from birth on, so I thought he was wrong. What I do know two years later is that she still talks about it, she did gain some knowledge of the world out side of the good old USA, and that even if she got nothing form it I enjoyed her so much on the trip that I would do it all over again! That is my 2 cents!
Rosie Caro

A European vacation doesn't have to be either outdoorsy activities or a two week history lesson. They are not mutually exclusive.

The great thing about being in Europe is that you can combine the two so effectively that both adults and kids can have a great time.

If you see that after 3 days in the city the kids are getting bored and antsy, you can plan a great outdoorsy type of activity to help the kids work off that energy.

In Europe you don't have to work at it to enjoy the cultural differences. The medieval town may be the perfect spot to start your hikes into the mountains. The swiss villages along the route to the Jungfrau are cultural experiences along with the hiking.

You can mix it up to get the best of both worlds very easily. There are many adults who OD on museums and "must sees" after a week so don't feel that a European vacation must be set to some sort of formula.

Maybe reading this thread asking how old you were when you first went to Europe will offer some insight that would be helpful.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...amp;dirtyBit=1

The whole idea that taking kids to Europe is a "waste" reminds me of the old Victorian idea that it's pointless for a parent to talk to a baby, because a baby can't understand what the parent is saying.

Or look at this way- why bother celebrating a child's first or second birthday, since they won't remember it anyways?

If you have the opportunity to take your family to Europe, I would take advantage of it. Search through the forum and you'll find plenty of evidence that kids of all ages have wonderful times in Europe.

Banff,

I have taken my kids to Europe 3 times it may seem like a waste but its not. This last time we did a 12 day cruise after 8 days in Italy. The experiences you have with kids are totally different than when you visit without them.
Here were some of my kids (DD age 12 and DS age 9) favorite things:

Normandy: The giant seafood platters and large sea shells

Paris: The Eiffel tower and crepes

Rome: Pizza, Gelato and running around near the Pantheon.

Egypt: Camels and Pyramids

Greece: Beaches, beaches, beaches

Venice: The favorite of both kids. DS loved the pigeons and canals, dd loved the gelato, and lack of cars.

and my favorite is watching their faces each time they experience something new.

Take 'em to Europe! The first time our boys traveled by plane they were 7 and 12: Belgium and the Netherlands. 2 years later: Paris, the French Alps and Bordeaux. They have never been to Disney, although the older one has been to the West coast (we are from Maine). I think they thought it was kind of cool that they had been these places. They both had French in school early, and the younger son wanted to see "the place where all the roads come together to make a star". The Arc de Triumphe was special to him for some reason. Seeing Tour de France locals, eating crepes, sailing boats at the jardin de Luxemburg while Mom and Dad enjoyed some wine with our picnic lunch, all were favorite memories. My only recommendation would be to choose the country based on what interests them or what they've been exposed to in school, movies, TV, etc. And one poster was right, don't wait! Mine are now 17 and almost 21 and its impossible to find a time to take family vacations together!

Hi B,

You can always vacation at home.

The 12-yr old is the right age for Europe.

Expand his mind.

It doesn't matter where you take the 5-yr old. He'll be happy.

How many days for this vacation?

((I))

<b>take them to Europe</b> - my boys loved it. You can always do the waterfalls thing, but now is the time to expose them to something different. And, there is tons of cool kid stuff to do. Go to Paris and tour the sewers - a guaranteed kid thriller. Go to the Cite des Sciences: http://www.cite-sciences.fr/english/indexFLASH.php.

Rent an apartment, so they will have a little space to spread out and chill, and you can have a bowl of cereal, or toast for breakfast, and save money by eating in.

Most important - involve them in the planning. Ask them what they would like to see and try to accommodate them a little (I don't cater to mine that much, but try for a happy medium).

Have a great time!!

oh, and go to Normandy! Victor, of http://lignerolles.homestead.com/victorytours.html

took my family on a day tour of the landing spots and WWII highlights and really involved the boys. He had them running through the bomb craters, imagining the landing. They loved it and came away with a new appreciation for history. What was something in their school books really came alive for them.

I greatly appreciate all of the comments.

Either trip would be approximately 14 days. Once, while travelling through the Canadian Rockies I spoke with an English couple who told me the CR were more spectacular than the Alps but they lacked the quaint little Alpine villages. I would love to go to Switz. but I've heard it is $$$.

My initial thought is to fly into Brugge, drive down the Rhine (bike along the Rhine and take a barge to visit castles), drive over to Rothenberg, down into Bavaria and Neuchswenstein, through Austria to Venice and out of Milan??

Or just concentrate on Italy or Greece. Thanks for the detailed itin. in Greece.

That's a lot of moving around, not to mention that you will pay a hefty fee for picking up a car outside of Italy and dropping it off in Italy. Also, don't forget a lot of kids enjoy train rides, and you can spend your time talking with them instead of sweating the roads.

I would not try to combine Italy with the northern European trip you are planning.

Brugge probably delights a lot of kids, but I think you can find plenty of other well preserved medieval towns with swans elsewhere on your trip, and thus start further east.

Switzerland is not any more expensive than Italy -- especially the destinations you are talking about. It's not the&quot;quaint&quot; villages that make the alps different. It's the farming and flower gardens. The rockies are so wild.

Greece and Italy would be a completely different trip. Some consideration should be given to how well all of you tolerate heat. Doing a of touring in treeless places in the heat of summer -- places like the Acropolis, Venice, the ruins of Rome or Pompeii -- can get pretty grim. Some of that can be ameliorated by touring in the morning and staying in hotels with pools.

Another consideration is food. Germanic cuisines are a far cry from the foods of the mediterranean.

I really really really wanted to go to Europe when I was a kid. I wanted to see mideval towns, climb towers, tour castles, hike around in the Alps, ride in a gondola in Venice...

Unfortunately I was in my 30s before I finally got to go.

Europe definitely...

We did a driving trip through Italy 4 years ago with our granddaughter Nikki during her Spring break, she was 11 at the time. We flew into Rome, stayed 3 nights, picked up a car, drove to Sorento (3 nights), to Florence (3 nights), to Varenna (3 nights, Lake Como area), last stop Venice, 2 nights. It was a great trip. Nikki's goal was a gelato a day while in Italy and she made it. Summer might be too hot to go to Italy, we took Nikki out of school for a few days so we could go during spring, it was worth it. It is the kind of education that you can not get from books.

Pat

Italy and Greece are hot, hot in the summer. I would go to Europe but further north.
Scotland might be a good place !

Either trip would be great. I agree with going as far as you can with four frequent flyer miles. We took our teens this past summer for their first trip to Europe at 14 and 15. They had a blast, but I did do things I knew they would like, for exa. a fashion show in paris, and biking tour around paris (we all liked that), and their favorite part was meeting the cousins in austria and spending time at their homes on farmland in the middle of nowhere! It was a great experience. The 12 year old will remember a lot. The five year old will only remember parts, but that is okay too.
I went one trip to Yellowstone and Big Sky montana as a child. I was 7 and I still remember parts of that trip.
The one thing to remember is that when you travel with kids, you can't try to pack too much into one day. The idea of apartments is a great one if you plan to spend some time in one place. If not, chain hotels like marriott, will have some familiar comforts like kid breakfast foods, air conditioning, tv in english with games, and sometimes a pool.
I also agree with the idea of Germany and the castles and medieval towns. If they like soccer/futbol, maybe try to see game.
Anywhere you go, if you go together and have some laughs and some unique foods to try, your kids will remember the trip for many years to come.

I am sure you want to use your 4 ff tickets, but are you aware of how expensive it is to travel in Norway,Sweden, Switzerland Finland and probably Iceland. The last I read a big mac was over ten US dollars. I would let common sense prevail and take them to the Pacific NW or Canadian Rockies where you know they will have a good time. If cost is not an issue, take them whereever, but there are many other places in Europe with much better prices. Do they like the beach? Have a great time with your kids wherever you go.

&gt;&gt;&gt;are you aware of how expensive it is to travel in Norway,Sweden, Switzerland Finland and probably Iceland. The last I read a big mac was over ten US dollars.&lt;&lt;&lt;

Nonsense. Big Mac is 3,95 ?.

And the dollar has improved in Europe.

Still, it's a waste of money to take kids all the way to Europe to eat Big Macs. One hopes broadening their horizons includes eating some European food.

while Europe may appear to be the better usage of my ff miles I actually think a domestic trip maximizes the value more. Four Euro tixs will cost me 200,000 miles total while I could get 8 tickets (or two trips - say ALaska or Pacific NW and QUebec/Maine) for 200,000 miles.

With that being said, I couldn't afford a European vacation if I also had to pay for 4 air tickets which is why I would be willing to burn the miles for Europe instead of two N American trips. This is why I have felt so pressed to do Europe now while I have the resources.

Someone mentioned that it was a selfish adult trip to go to Europe and I understand why someone might feel that way but my wife and I have been to Europe more times than I can count. We just want to expose our kids to other cultures and the world while we have the resources.

I remember taking a humanities class in college - the instructor was so passionate about the subject and had traveled the world - she brought the everything to life. I dreamed of visiting these places but never had at that time. I would love for my kids to sit in those same classes and be able to make the personal connections.

Banff,

I was the one who used the word &quot;selfish&quot; but it wasn't directed at you. It was directed at a previous post that had recommended that even though you were bringing kids, you should plan the trip for adult appreciation and expect the kids to go along with your decisions, end of story.

I endorse the idea of you going to Europe and think both your kids, despite their differing ages, will find it a kick. While I also heartily endorse your idea of making it a culture and history tour, I do think you'd be wise to make some concessions for pure childish pleasure and fun, and a touch of the familiar now and then -- like swimming pools, parks, unplanned wandering, letting them choose some of the sites along the way.

Kids probably tolerate heat better than adults, but if you already know your kids don't like it, stick to a cooler part of Europe in summer, or don't get too far from water for long.