Am I wrong?
 

I am facing a dilemma with travel plans next summer. I have two boys, one is 12 and the other is 5. Common sense tells me that I should take them to my favorite spot - the Pacific NW and Canadian Rockies b/c they would enjoy that more. However, we have a limited budget and with the dollar gaining a little on the Euro and 4 ff tickets I am thinking more about Europe. I know that this may not be as fun for kids as hiking to waterfalls, seeing whales, and canoeing on glacial lakes but I do want to expose them to the world while we have the resources (4 ff tickets) to do so.

Thoughts and arguments for either option appreciated.

You can do all those things in Europe. Try Iceland -- which could use your money. Your kids might love the thermal lagoons in addition to Europe's biggest waterfall, whale watching and glaciers.

Or go to Switzerland. No whales, but great cable car rides.

If they like pizza, try the Dolomiti, and then drop down to Venice for a gondola ride, or lots of fun on Lago di Garda.

But if they are going to sulk the whole time because they'd rather be in Canada, the exchange rate isn't *that* good.

We have done both with our kids. If you are using miles, I would go as far as I could. Our kids were 4 and 7 the first time we went to Europe. We have been back several times, and will be back in June. We used ff miles for our tickets and of course are happy to see the euro where it is at. Our kids have commented many times at how thankful they are for their experiences, both here and abroad. Go for it! You have nothing to lose, and the PNW and Canadian Rockies will still be here for you for more explorations.

Get the most value for you FF; go to Europe, specifically Germany's Bavarian Forest and Switzerland with hikes and outdoor scenery. Go to Holiday-rentals.com and check out a nice rural house in the German or Swiss countryside. The 5 year old may not remember as much but neither he will about the Canadian Rockies anyway....

I would take them to Europe now.

We took our two kids progressively further away from home in the U.S., and were planning to take them to Europe when they got older.

It was a mistake.

As they got past 12yr old, traveling with parents to Europe had to be the least cool thing to do. They just wanted to do what other teenagers did -- go to the Disney World, etc.

Try Iceland, Norway, Sweden or Switzerland. Get the most from your ff tickets.

I have sons ages 11 and 12. They would much rather go to Europe than the Pacific NW, and they've been to both areas numerous times.

I agree that after about 13, kids can sometimes hit a wall with family travel. Go to Europe now while your kids are flexible and easy. Life is uncertain and you never know when you'll next be able to or if you'll want to strangle them let alone travel with them.

gruezi

My kids are 7 and 9 and absolutely love going to Europe. This March will be their third trip. If you have never been, then go for it. They might surprise you.

I'm surprised that Europe seems to be a unanimous vote but I guess this is a Europe board. Many friends and family think Europe is a wasted trip while the kids are too young to enjoy it. They mostly suggest more 'active' trips.

I would love to go to Iceland and Scandinavia, however, our ff tickets don't go there.

I would also like a cruise but I'm not sure about the $$$. Otherwise we have been thinking of the castles of Germany or Italy or Greece with the boys?

Cruise is a bad idea ... mainly about the sailing, with SHORT port stops where old geezers get off & shop.

How about Greece?!?! If you go in JUNE, not July-August (those months are mobbed w EU charter flights), it is miles cheaper than N. Europe -- great for active boys!
Nafplio is a 2.5 hour drive from Athens AP -- has THREE forts/castles right in town to clamber over, and neat forts & other ruins within 20 miles ... including Nemea, the #2 site for "sacred games" after Olympia -- stadium, arena, etc. Beaches too of course. Then fly or ferry to an island like Naxos that's fun for kids AND adults.
http://travel.webshots.com/slideshow/551991579dJbWvh
An island like Naxos has golden beaches galore, mountains to hike, ancient statues, water sports (and a a "studio" for 4 w. balcony & kitchenette can cost 60€ per nite). THey run around (it's safe safe safe) and you can loll on beach. Save 2 days in Athens for the last -- climb the acropolis, buy souvenirs.

Here are a Fodorite's slide shows of Nafplio and some area sites -- Mycenae, Tiryns, Epidaurus, Nemea


Plus a slide show of Naxos; MUCH more fun w. kids than santorini or Mykonos (tho if you insist, Naxos is the island that has day excursions to both the above):
http://travel.webshots.com/slideshow/552001505EYxVYT

Try Europe, it's not just dusty museums you know. The hiking, canoeing/kayaking cable rides to mountain tops are wonderful and if anything more popular in Europe than they are here in the states.

The French Alps, or Switzerland would be fabulous for them. I guarantee that they would remember for a lifetime the view and experience from the top of the Jungfrau in Switzerland. Taking 3 small trains from Interlaken, changing in small villages along the way, traveling through a tunnel through the mountain that lasts (as I remember) about 15 minutes. Then on the summit, taking a dog sled ride or a zip line or just walking around on the glacier and having a snowball fight is an amazing adventure for any child.

Or in France, the area around Chamonix has wonderful activities, hikes, cable to the top of Mont Blanc, horseback riding, kayaking, you name the outdoor sport and it is popular in Europe. The cables to Pic du Midi on the top of the mountain, with another cable over the glacier to Italy. The view out over the Alps into Switzerland and Italy is fabulous.

Or instead of canoeing a glacial lake how about walking on an actual glacier and through a tunnel into one after a train ride up to the "mer de glace" or in English the "sea of ice".

France also has wonderful parks called adventure parks. But unlike in America, there are no "rides" or mechanical devices. In France an adventure park is an obstacle course set in the trees. With safety tethers they are perfectly safe, but an injury claims attorneys dream I'm sure ;), so we are not likely to see such parks here in the states.

We did one of the Adventure parks in France and it was great fun.

Here is a video of a sample of the activities, and yes there were children 12 doing these adventures and they also had a course for the 5 year olds as well.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...06317861339133

Imagine doing all the things that you've done in the rockies, but done with the added spice of being in a "foreign" country.

Exposing your children to something that is very different from that which they've experienced so far will widen their horizons in ways that will affect them for the rest of their lives. Open their minds and hearts to what's out there and show them both how big and how small the world is.

Please don't listen to the people who tell you taking your children to Europe is a "wasted" trip!

Do a search and you'll find plenty of posters who travel to Europe with children. My own parents travelled throughout Europe with me as a baby, and that was not "wasted" time because as a kid I loved looking at the photos and hearing about our adventures. From that I learned quite a bit about European geography and history and I certainly got bitten by the travel bug quite early as a result.

If you are travelling in the summer, maybe think about Germany instead of Italy or Greece. I think any 5 or 12 year old boy would have a blast in Germany- there are not only the castles but also lots of opportunities for outdoor activity. Mybe think about a visit to the Black Forest, for example.

I'm sure I've seen films of ski resorts which in summer have slides down mountainsides, pony-trekking and mountain biking (there's a reason why it's called that), and so on. Europeans do outdoors too!

I wouldn't go to Europe and do the same things you would on a vacation with the kids in America. I would take them to Europe to show them the differences in people and culture. I firmly believe that when you do a family vacation in Europe that it is done for the adults which allows for the kids to learn about history.

Hi Banff

I've raised 6 sons and I regret not taking all of them to Europe yet. I hope to remedy that before too long.

I also escort school groups to Europe and I have very few regrets. Neither do the teenagers. Your five year old will remember lots - and with pictures and videos to back him up he will remember the trip forever.

I understand you hesitation with respect to cost. There are lots of ways to minimize cost and maximize experience. I (along with lots of others on this board) are aware of opportunities to reduce costs. Please let us help you as you plan the trip you and your family will never forget.

best wishes

teacherCanada

I watched the video of the 'adventure park' in France and it is ironic because outside of Vancouver that have something very similar that we were looking to do.

While I appreciate all the suggestions of 'outdoor' activities in Europe I don't really want to exchange Pacific NW outdoors for European outdoors. Perhaps this is the reason my family and friends strongly suggest one over the other. If we go to EUrope I want to expand the boys horizon culturally and historically. I want to go to EUrope for the Acropolis, Pantheon, Colosseum, castles, medieval towns, etc. I don't know if my family feel that 12 and 5 year olds can appreciate those things at this point - while they know they would love the outdoor activities of the NW.

But what if the adults don't want to do what you want to do?

I wouldn't drag a kid through Europe without consideration for their interests and enjoyment, especially if this is billed as "the family vacation."

We've all had the experience of avoiding things for years just because we were forced to study them as children when we were too young to understand them, and therefore developed negative feelings about them and the idea we didn't like those things. If you're lucky, you later just stumble across that same thing as an adult at a time when you can see its worth -- and you no longer keep rejecting it.

But why set up that problem? Above all, a family vacation should be a time when adults have more time to be together and express their love for their children. Not a selfish exercise where the kids just get outvoted because they're powerless.

Sorry Banff. My post was addresssed at roger.

I think a five-year old would love the Colosseum and the Pantheon. I think it's hard for anybody to like the Acropolis in summertime. It's too hot. I don't know if they'll be culturally "expanded", but they'll probably have fun. They might like the cats there, too.

One place you might check out is Verona: great Roman amphitheater, great medieval castle, but also a nearby lake on the outside chance that you'd all enjoy a boat ride or some windsurfing, along with your history. (Plus Gardaland!) From Verona it's not far to Mantova, or Venice.

That could easily fill your dance card for two weeks and be a real mix of fab history and fun.

PS: If you pick the right time to go to Verona, you can hear opera under the stars in the Roman amphitheatre. It's quite the event -- and I've heard kids love it.

It's funny, but when you said in your original post that you wanted to expose them to the world while you have the resources, I thought that so many European glaciers are melting so fast, and Venice is sinking, you might look at it that way too!

A family vacation isn't the time to bore the children to death.

Believe it or not there are adults who travel to Europe to do things other than visit museums an "learn abour history" you know.

The hiking, skiing, cycling, mountain biking, kayaking and other outdoor adventures lure as many people to Europe as do the museums.

Children learn in many ways, seeing the monuments in the square or hearing the stories by mountain guides and new found friends with historical tidbits will start a conversation that the children will remember long after the trudge through the museum is forgotten.

Hiking over a Roman bridge that Hitler's armies attempted to destroy will have more impact than hearing lectures on European history or seeing old trinkets in glass encased displays.

I took my niece to Holland at age 11 and my father told me it was a waste to take a kid that young. The problem was for me that my parents (yes, my father) had taken us each year from birth on, so I thought he was wrong. What I do know two years later is that she still talks about it, she did gain some knowledge of the world out side of the good old USA, and that even if she got nothing form it I enjoyed her so much on the trip that I would do it all over again! That is my 2 cents!
Rosie Caro

A European vacation doesn't have to be either outdoorsy activities or a two week history lesson. They are not mutually exclusive.

The great thing about being in Europe is that you can combine the two so effectively that both adults and kids can have a great time.

If you see that after 3 days in the city the kids are getting bored and antsy, you can plan a great outdoorsy type of activity to help the kids work off that energy.

In Europe you don't have to work at it to enjoy the cultural differences. The medieval town may be the perfect spot to start your hikes into the mountains. The swiss villages along the route to the Jungfrau are cultural experiences along with the hiking.

You can mix it up to get the best of both worlds very easily. There are many adults who OD on museums and "must sees" after a week so don't feel that a European vacation must be set to some sort of formula.

Maybe reading this thread asking how old you were when you first went to Europe will offer some insight that would be helpful.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...amp;dirtyBit=1

The whole idea that taking kids to Europe is a "waste" reminds me of the old Victorian idea that it's pointless for a parent to talk to a baby, because a baby can't understand what the parent is saying.

Or look at this way- why bother celebrating a child's first or second birthday, since they won't remember it anyways?

If you have the opportunity to take your family to Europe, I would take advantage of it. Search through the forum and you'll find plenty of evidence that kids of all ages have wonderful times in Europe.

Banff,

I have taken my kids to Europe 3 times it may seem like a waste but its not. This last time we did a 12 day cruise after 8 days in Italy. The experiences you have with kids are totally different than when you visit without them.
Here were some of my kids (DD age 12 and DS age 9) favorite things:

Normandy: The giant seafood platters and large sea shells

Paris: The Eiffel tower and crepes

Rome: Pizza, Gelato and running around near the Pantheon.

Egypt: Camels and Pyramids

Greece: Beaches, beaches, beaches

Venice: The favorite of both kids. DS loved the pigeons and canals, dd loved the gelato, and lack of cars.

and my favorite is watching their faces each time they experience something new.

Take 'em to Europe! The first time our boys traveled by plane they were 7 and 12: Belgium and the Netherlands. 2 years later: Paris, the French Alps and Bordeaux. They have never been to Disney, although the older one has been to the West coast (we are from Maine). I think they thought it was kind of cool that they had been these places. They both had French in school early, and the younger son wanted to see "the place where all the roads come together to make a star". The Arc de Triumphe was special to him for some reason. Seeing Tour de France locals, eating crepes, sailing boats at the jardin de Luxemburg while Mom and Dad enjoyed some wine with our picnic lunch, all were favorite memories. My only recommendation would be to choose the country based on what interests them or what they've been exposed to in school, movies, TV, etc. And one poster was right, don't wait! Mine are now 17 and almost 21 and its impossible to find a time to take family vacations together!

Hi B,

You can always vacation at home.

The 12-yr old is the right age for Europe.

Expand his mind.

It doesn't matter where you take the 5-yr old. He'll be happy.

How many days for this vacation?

((I))

<b>take them to Europe</b> - my boys loved it. You can always do the waterfalls thing, but now is the time to expose them to something different. And, there is tons of cool kid stuff to do. Go to Paris and tour the sewers - a guaranteed kid thriller. Go to the Cite des Sciences: http://www.cite-sciences.fr/english/indexFLASH.php.

Rent an apartment, so they will have a little space to spread out and chill, and you can have a bowl of cereal, or toast for breakfast, and save money by eating in.

Most important - involve them in the planning. Ask them what they would like to see and try to accommodate them a little (I don't cater to mine that much, but try for a happy medium).

Have a great time!!

oh, and go to Normandy! Victor, of http://lignerolles.homestead.com/victorytours.html

took my family on a day tour of the landing spots and WWII highlights and really involved the boys. He had them running through the bomb craters, imagining the landing. They loved it and came away with a new appreciation for history. What was something in their school books really came alive for them.

I greatly appreciate all of the comments.

Either trip would be approximately 14 days. Once, while travelling through the Canadian Rockies I spoke with an English couple who told me the CR were more spectacular than the Alps but they lacked the quaint little Alpine villages. I would love to go to Switz. but I've heard it is $$$.

My initial thought is to fly into Brugge, drive down the Rhine (bike along the Rhine and take a barge to visit castles), drive over to Rothenberg, down into Bavaria and Neuchswenstein, through Austria to Venice and out of Milan??

Or just concentrate on Italy or Greece. Thanks for the detailed itin. in Greece.

That's a lot of moving around, not to mention that you will pay a hefty fee for picking up a car outside of Italy and dropping it off in Italy. Also, don't forget a lot of kids enjoy train rides, and you can spend your time talking with them instead of sweating the roads.

I would not try to combine Italy with the northern European trip you are planning.

Brugge probably delights a lot of kids, but I think you can find plenty of other well preserved medieval towns with swans elsewhere on your trip, and thus start further east.

Switzerland is not any more expensive than Italy -- especially the destinations you are talking about. It's not the&quot;quaint&quot; villages that make the alps different. It's the farming and flower gardens. The rockies are so wild.

Greece and Italy would be a completely different trip. Some consideration should be given to how well all of you tolerate heat. Doing a of touring in treeless places in the heat of summer -- places like the Acropolis, Venice, the ruins of Rome or Pompeii -- can get pretty grim. Some of that can be ameliorated by touring in the morning and staying in hotels with pools.

Another consideration is food. Germanic cuisines are a far cry from the foods of the mediterranean.

I really really really wanted to go to Europe when I was a kid. I wanted to see mideval towns, climb towers, tour castles, hike around in the Alps, ride in a gondola in Venice...

Unfortunately I was in my 30s before I finally got to go.

Europe definitely...

We did a driving trip through Italy 4 years ago with our granddaughter Nikki during her Spring break, she was 11 at the time. We flew into Rome, stayed 3 nights, picked up a car, drove to Sorento (3 nights), to Florence (3 nights), to Varenna (3 nights, Lake Como area), last stop Venice, 2 nights. It was a great trip. Nikki's goal was a gelato a day while in Italy and she made it. Summer might be too hot to go to Italy, we took Nikki out of school for a few days so we could go during spring, it was worth it. It is the kind of education that you can not get from books.

Pat

Italy and Greece are hot, hot in the summer. I would go to Europe but further north.
Scotland might be a good place !

Either trip would be great. I agree with going as far as you can with four frequent flyer miles. We took our teens this past summer for their first trip to Europe at 14 and 15. They had a blast, but I did do things I knew they would like, for exa. a fashion show in paris, and biking tour around paris (we all liked that), and their favorite part was meeting the cousins in austria and spending time at their homes on farmland in the middle of nowhere! It was a great experience. The 12 year old will remember a lot. The five year old will only remember parts, but that is okay too.
I went one trip to Yellowstone and Big Sky montana as a child. I was 7 and I still remember parts of that trip.
The one thing to remember is that when you travel with kids, you can't try to pack too much into one day. The idea of apartments is a great one if you plan to spend some time in one place. If not, chain hotels like marriott, will have some familiar comforts like kid breakfast foods, air conditioning, tv in english with games, and sometimes a pool.
I also agree with the idea of Germany and the castles and medieval towns. If they like soccer/futbol, maybe try to see game.
Anywhere you go, if you go together and have some laughs and some unique foods to try, your kids will remember the trip for many years to come.

I am sure you want to use your 4 ff tickets, but are you aware of how expensive it is to travel in Norway,Sweden, Switzerland Finland and probably Iceland. The last I read a big mac was over ten US dollars. I would let common sense prevail and take them to the Pacific NW or Canadian Rockies where you know they will have a good time. If cost is not an issue, take them whereever, but there are many other places in Europe with much better prices. Do they like the beach? Have a great time with your kids wherever you go.

&gt;&gt;&gt;are you aware of how expensive it is to travel in Norway,Sweden, Switzerland Finland and probably Iceland. The last I read a big mac was over ten US dollars.&lt;&lt;&lt;

Nonsense. Big Mac is 3,95 ?.

And the dollar has improved in Europe.

Still, it's a waste of money to take kids all the way to Europe to eat Big Macs. One hopes broadening their horizons includes eating some European food.

while Europe may appear to be the better usage of my ff miles I actually think a domestic trip maximizes the value more. Four Euro tixs will cost me 200,000 miles total while I could get 8 tickets (or two trips - say ALaska or Pacific NW and QUebec/Maine) for 200,000 miles.

With that being said, I couldn't afford a European vacation if I also had to pay for 4 air tickets which is why I would be willing to burn the miles for Europe instead of two N American trips. This is why I have felt so pressed to do Europe now while I have the resources.

Someone mentioned that it was a selfish adult trip to go to Europe and I understand why someone might feel that way but my wife and I have been to Europe more times than I can count. We just want to expose our kids to other cultures and the world while we have the resources.

I remember taking a humanities class in college - the instructor was so passionate about the subject and had traveled the world - she brought the everything to life. I dreamed of visiting these places but never had at that time. I would love for my kids to sit in those same classes and be able to make the personal connections.

Banff,

I was the one who used the word &quot;selfish&quot; but it wasn't directed at you. It was directed at a previous post that had recommended that even though you were bringing kids, you should plan the trip for adult appreciation and expect the kids to go along with your decisions, end of story.

I endorse the idea of you going to Europe and think both your kids, despite their differing ages, will find it a kick. While I also heartily endorse your idea of making it a culture and history tour, I do think you'd be wise to make some concessions for pure childish pleasure and fun, and a touch of the familiar now and then -- like swimming pools, parks, unplanned wandering, letting them choose some of the sites along the way.

Kids probably tolerate heat better than adults, but if you already know your kids don't like it, stick to a cooler part of Europe in summer, or don't get too far from water for long.