Alps hiking, don't even know where to start
 

Good day all,

I'm starting to try and plan our first trip to Europe for my wife (45) and I (41). We have done a lot of travel all over the US (where we are from) but I no experience outside of that. We are looking into a two week trip to see the Alps. Our main focus is to see the natural beauty of the mountains and enjoy as many hikes as we can. We are experienced day hikers with 12-15 miles 3-4000' gain towards the max of what we can do comfortably on a daily basis. We really enjoy mountain stream side hikes, waterfall hikes, and alpine lake hikes and we will get off the beaten path if it means getting away from crowds (we don't like overly crowded areas). We enjoy smaller mountain towns and do not really enjoy large cities (although a day or two in a bigger city may be a good experience for us). I'm having trouble knowing where to even begin researching what countries would best suit our desires. Our idea started with Switzerland (because I think most people associate the beautiful Alps pictures with there) but I am realizing that Austria and Germany may offer the same if not more. It sounds like Switzerland is the most expensive of the bunch. Budget wise we really don't have one, experiences are more important than money. Would $10,000US be a reasonable budget for everything outside of airfare? We are fans of public transportation but are concerned about getting to trailheads without a rental. I believe the high season will be June-August and we aren't opposed to visiting on shoulder seasons if it means less crowds. I would appreciate any and all help you guys are willing to provide. Good starter resources, sample itineraries that you have seen, even opinions on what country/countries would best suit our desires would be a great help. I'm mainly trying to narrow down a general area/time (big picture) so I can more accurately aim my research.

Thank you in advance for helping me through my ignorance,

Jim

Rest assured that you will have no trouble getting to trailheads in Switzerland. The public transport system is second to none, be it train, bus, cable car or gondola.

Yes, it's the most expensive of the lot, but you can save a bundle by booking apartments, especially in the off season.

Our favorite time to visit Switzerland is in the autumn - it's quieter then, yet the cableways are still open until about the third week of October. It's also school holidays in some parts of the country, but we've not found that to be a major issue.

We've been hiking there for years, but we're older than you, and 22-15 miles and 3-4000' gain is no longer in our range, but trust me, you will be spoiled for choice just about anywhere in the country.

I have many Swiss trip reports posted here - all hiking/walking centric. They may give you an idea of where to start looking.

Some sites that might get you started:

https://www.nomadasaurus.com/beginne...n-switzerland/

https://www.planetware.com/switzerla...nd-ch-1-26.htm

You might also benefit from a look at one of Kev Reynold's books on hiking in Switzerland.

Of the three countries you have in mind, Switzerland is by far the best served by public transportation. We loved our hiking trips in Austria but for most of the places we went, we needed a car. OTOH, we found some beautifully elegant inns with gourmet restaurants even in small villages (check out https://www.hotel-hofwirt.at/en/ as one example)

As you make your decisions, ask yourselves -- how many hours do you want to hike per day? What's the difficulty level you're most comfortable with? Are you comfortable riding chair lifts, cable cars, gondolas etc (not everyone is, my husband being one of those people who are fine with funiculars, but chairlifts, not so much). Do you like your scenery rugged or softer, more rounded?

Thank you for the information. I will definitely start looking for your trip reports Melnq8. That will be a wonderful resource. We are not opposed to a rental car but it is my understanding many places in Switzerland don't allow them or frown on them. It isn't a big deal one way or another. Ideally we would like to hike 5-6 hours a day on moderate trails, we will put in work on more strenuous hikes if it avoids the crowds. My wife won't do full on scrambling and she also can get vertigo on very narrow cliff edges so we avoid those. We'd probably like to have something like a 3 days hiking 4th day rest cycle. Rest for us could be country side driving, train trips, walking around town, local sites/POIs, day trips. I think we would probably describe our scenery desires as more rugged than soft. Chairlifts/gondolas/etc should not be a problem.

To sum up basics so far:

Switzerland - more expensive, look for apartments, excellent public transport even to trail heads, September/Early October shoulder season is good.
Austria - Rental car needed, small villages are well equipped, ???, I assume Austria has the "softer" scenery?

Appreciate all the help so far and welcome any and all information anyone else is willing to share. Thank you again Melnq8 and WeisserTee for taking time out of your day to help a stranger.

If traveling by public transport in Switzerland, you'll also want to look into a train pass of some sort. You didn't say how long your trip is, but for us, we always buy the Half Fare Card as our trips are up to a month long - the HFC is good for 30 days.

As far as cars in Switzerland, we've never rented one in our two dozen trips there. There are things to consider, such as parking costs - I've never seen free car parking anywhere in Switzerland, no matter how remote. You'll also need a vignette.

https://www.myswissalps.com/motorwayvignette

This site helps explain the many train passes in Switzerland, which can be confusing as hell for a first timer - one often needs to crunch the numbers to decide which best works for their particular trip.

https://www.seat61.com/train-travel-in-switzerland.htm

And don't overlook the Italian Dolomites!

https://www.dolomites.org/

We've booked and cancelled two trips to the Dolomites so I have no first hand experience, but there are definitely some challenging hikes. You'd probably want a car there.

Thank you again! I just got done with your trip report with your niece. It was a great write up and I look forward to getting into the more hiking centric ones. Thank you for taking the time to provide these resources for all. It really helps clueless newbies like me!

I second the recommendation for Switzerland. Yes, it is expensive, but if you plan properly, it is manageable. Find an apartment base in a good hiking region, get a rail pass the covers travel in that region (could be a national pass, too, just depends on your needs, where you are going, and what is available), and eat as many meals "at home" or from groceries you take with you. Lodging and meals are where you can save money if that is your priority. Be ready to spend some money on transportation, as that can get you to trailheads and other attractions, and back to your reasonably priced lodging, the same day.

We spent a week in Wengen in June of 2016 and really liked it. If I was doing it over again, I would go later, as some of the trails are still covered in snow in early June. So, if you are looking at shoulder season in the mountains, I would look in September (when the question is getting caught by the first snows, not waiting for last winter's snow to melt). Getting the right travel pass will allow you to save money. But, if you get an unlimited travel pass of one type or another, that can be worth it, too, as the flexibility to change plans without having to get out a spreadsheet and see if it fits in your budget, can be liberating, and make the trip more enjoyable.

We prefer early October to September -- cooler at night, sunny and warm but not hot. Fewer thunderstorms. Obviously that can vary from year to year but in the 14+ years we've lived in Switzerland, October has consistently been one of the nicest months, esp the first half. Even November can be surprisingly mild (some call November the new October) but in some places, hotels, restaurants etc shut down then to prep for the winter season or for the owners to take their own holidays.

As you get closer to your travel dates, check the SBB site for specials: https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets.html For example, I'm taking advantage next week of a four-day pass offer that popped up and will be day tripping to Appenzell, Gstaad, Saas-Fee and Zurich.

I hiked thousands of miles along the trail network between Chamonix and the Dolomites.
If you have no problems with reading maps, you best load down the Swiss National Map which shows all hiking trails, lifts and bus stops in the above mentioned area, at any scale:
http://map.geo.admin.ch/?lang=en
Public transport is excellent all over Switzerland as well as in the Italian Province of Bolzano/Bozen. Austria isnt 'bad neither, but more rainy.
Weather is always unpredictable in the Alps.The driest areas are inner alpine valleys like Valais (Switzerland), Aosta Valley and Val Venosta (both Italy).
The most rainy areas of Switzerland are St. Gallen/Appenzell, Lucerne and Bernese Oberland (in this order).
In France, only the Vallee de Chamonix has good public transport, but many lifts stop running in September.
Italian Alps are are more or less empty until end of June and after August (but the province of Bolzano/Bozen has a longer season) and hopelessly crowded in August.
The peak in Switzerland is between early July and mid August.
There exist some incredibly crowded hiking trails (those recommended in this forum), but most of the alpine trail network is NOT crowded.

Do you plan to hike from village to village, resp. from hut to hut or will you stay all the time at one or more bases and do day trips from there?. Both is perfectly possible in areas with good public transport.

Yeah, that one had absolutely nothing to do with hiking!

The most common alternatives when this kind of question is asked, is typically fairly or very touristy destinations like Berner Oberland, Zermatt and Chamonix. I've been to the two latter, and it's very touristy. But it is also some of the most spectacular destinations with the most beautiful hikes. But I've some alternative recommendations for you.

- Neighbouring valleys to Mattertal where Zermatt lies. Saastal with Saas-Fee and Saas Grund and/or Val d'Anniviers with Grimentz and Zinal. Especially Saas-Fee is great.
- Aosta in the northwest corner of Italy. Close to Mont Blanc, Monte Rosa, Gran Paradiso, etc., You could stay in the region capital Aosta or a small village like Cogne. I believe that Cogne would be great for beautiful high level hikes.

I may go to the latter next summer. Are mapping routes and accomondation in Aosta and Cogne these days.

For you; I would suggest flying to Geneva. Then taking the train to Zermatt and stay there for a couple of days. It's great scenery and some really spectacular hikes, but it bit too touristy to stay any longer. Then go to Saas-Fee for a few days. 98 % as spectaluar as in Zermatt, but much less crowds. For the second week I suggest going over the mountain to Italy. Bus from Saas-Fee to Visp, train to Martigny, bus from Martigny over the Grand Saint Bernard pass to Aosta. It will take you perhaps 4-5 hours, then stay in Aosta and/or Cogne for the second week and take a bus back to Geneva through the Mont Blanc tunnel and Chamonix.

This suggestion would IMO maximize and combine much of the best of the Alps. The public transport is good. It is a bit expensive, but not the worst like if you stayed two weeks in Zermatt and Berner Oberland. For budget I would calculate perhaps 150 dollar each day per person for hotels+food (unless you plan to stay at a luxury resort) plus some for transport and gondolas, but this could really be limited to perhaps $300-500 for the whole stay (or even less). You will have really spectacular hikes for almost the whole trip and this is the part of the Alps where you have the biggest chance for good weather.

I also made this thread earlier this fall:

https://www.fodors.com/community/eur...hread-1709743/

We are planning on basing out of a location and then doing day hikes from there. We don't mind moving locations every 4-5 days to see more are varied country, terrain, and towns. We won't be doing any thru hiking though. I've heard apartments mentioned multiple times, is there a good tool to look for those? AirBnb, VRBO, etc? I think TWKs post most closely mirrors what we normally do on trips. We will base out of a location, hike the local area for 3-4 days, then move to a new area.

Thank you for the wonderful resources neckervd. That mapping tool is amazing and will be very helpful.

I'll look more into the travel passes but I'm thinking the unlimited 15 day would fit us just fine. The freedom of not having to worry about buying individual tickets would be worth the cost.
.
This is all great information and very helpful. I think you all have us convinced that Switzerland is where we will narrow our focus. I can't reiterate how thankful I am for you all taking time out of your days to help everyone out. Thank you everyone.

Although vacation rentals might be cheaper on paper, it doesn't hurt to check out hotels in your destination that include breakfast and dinner in their rates, especially if you don't travel in high season. You might find it more relaxing to not have to cook (or clean) and might enjoy a bit of socializing in the hotel's bar before or after dinner. Some hotels specialize in offering hiking advice and can be very helpful with refining your plans for the day. Some hotels offer basic and repetitive meals; others make dining with them a treat. For example, we like to go to the 5-star Ermitage Hotel in Schoenried (near Gstaad) in early December. For 200 francs a night (per person), we get a beautiful room with mountain view, wonderful breakfast buffet, light lunch, afternoon tea/coffee and cake, plus a delicious multi-course dinner with many options. Also included is use of the extensive spa area, with its two outdoor heated pools and one indoor heated pool, steam room, sauna, exercise equipment etc. They also offered detailed hiking itineraries, including guided hikes.

In short, it's good to explore all the options that could be available in your chosen areas.

Another perk of hotels is some will offer guest cards that include transport on trains, buses and cableways in a given area. The Engadine (a great area for hiking) offers these:

https://www.engadin.com/en/guestcard

We've often weighed the benefit of hotels with guest card vs apartments without, and we still prefer apartments, but its more about space for us, and we also tend to visit outside of the guest card season.

Resources for apartments include Air BNB and VRBO of course, but don't overlook listings provided by tourist offices as well - they often deal directly with the apartment owner and are less expensive than using a platform like Air BNB. Unfortunately, they're often harder to find for those of us outside of Switzerland - it often takes a lot of internet research to find some of these listings.

Here's a bnb site that might prove useful - I've never booked through it, but it's in my arsenal of Swiss accommodation resources:

https://bnb.ch/en/

We've visited Grimentz twice (also hiking nirvana) and our apartment owner offered a guest card that covered buses in the area, and a 50% reduction for cable cars. So, you just never know what you might find.

I need to get busy writing up my report from our 32 day trip to Switzerland this past Sept and Oct.

Accommodation.
Have a look at airbnb and booking.com.
But realize that some homes offered are far away from train and bus stations.
If you want to go into the highs Alps (what I would do), concentrate on the Cantons of Valais and Graubünden, but don't completely ignore Aosta Valley.and Chamonix Valley.
Places in these areas, where you can be busy during at least 4 days without doing twice the same hike (if you use gondolas and buses for not more than 20 min/OW):
Zermatt, Saas Grund, Fiesch, Vissoie, Orsieres, Argentière, Chamonix, Courmayeur, Gressoney, Pontresina, Sils Maria.......

Thank you Olave for the wonderful recommendations. We definitely like to get off the beaten path. Touristy areas are usually full of tourists for a reason but we have found that with just a little sacrifice of some "dsthing" you can really avoid the crowds and get a much better (for us) experience. Your write up is chalked full of information as well.

Thank you weissertee. I had no ideas hotels around the area would offer extras like breakfast and dinner or transportation cards. That is great to know! We don't mind fending for ourselves but it is much more relaxing to leaving cooking behind. Budgetwise $400/night for two people with food seems very reasonable considering hotels in the states are often $200+/night. I was expecting worse. Seems like $10,000 sans airfare should be plenty to get us through the two weeks.

Thank you neckervd for the list of locations to look into. It really is great to start being able to narrow down these locations.

And Melnq8...get to work on that write up. I'm sure it will be extremely helpful! :)

As always thank you everyone for the direction and guidance. I'm still extremely overwhelmed but at least I feel like I have direction now.

I'll second OlavE re: Saas-Fee. We spent four nights there at the very end of this past August and loved the hiking, scenery, sunny weather, and town. It felt like end of season - not all that crowded, with many of the visitors there for summer skiing on the glacier. We are a little older and not quite at your hiking level (maybe can muster that one day out of a few) and had to pare back a bit due to a sore knee. Check AllTrails for options in that area. We also enjoyed basing in Kandersteg for another four days. The hike above Oeschinensee is spectacular. Enjoy!

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...d00b2428d.jpeg

Olave recommends more or less the same places as I did.
Here are some additional informations about them:

Saas Fee/Saas Grund/Saas Almagell:
Car free (pedestrians only) Saas Fee is the most touristy one, with many day tripers from (and even beyond) Berne. Most guests who stay there are Swiss families.
Saas Grund is just below and has the function of a local transport hub:
Buses:
to Saas-Fee and Saas Almagell (5 min ride each): every 30 min until 23.18 resp 21.48
to Visp railway station (direct trains to Basel, Zurich, Geneva and Milan): every 30 min until 23.37
to Stalden railway station with connection to Zermatt: every 30 min until 19.38
to Lake Mattmark (3 hrs on foot from the Italian gondola station Passo del Monte Moro): every hr until 18.00
Most popular long hikes in the area:
Gspon gondola station - Hoferalpi - Saas Grund or Kreuzboden gondola station,
Kreuzboden gondola station - Almagelleralp - adventure trail - Furggstalden lift station (above Saas Almagell),
Graechen/Hannigalp gondola station - Balfrinalp - Saas Fee,
Felskinn gondola station - Britannia Hut - Plattjen gondola station - Saas Fee,
Heitbodma lift sation - Antronapass (Italian border) - Jazziluecke - Lake Mattmark,
bus to Visp - Visperterminen - gondola to Giw, then: Giw - Gibidum - water channel trail - Obers Fuulmoos - Nanzlicka - Simplon Pass (last bus from there to Brig (Visp) at 19.20).

I will comment the other places soon........

VAL D'ANNIVIERS
I recommended Vissoie because this village is the trransport hub of the Valley .At. Vissoie, the line coming from Sierre splits into 3 different sections: to St-Luc - Chandolin, to Grimentz - Moiry and to Zinal.
That means that if you hike in the Valley, it takes usually less time to go back by bus to Vissoie than to any other place. But the layover at Vissoie, for example if you want to go from St-Luc to Grimentz in the evening, is never longer than 30 minutes. And I agree, Grimentz, St-Luc and Chandolin are nicer places.
There are no layovers at Vissoie if you go from any place of the Valley to Sierre or if you come back from Sierre.
There are only 11 daily buses between Val d'Anniviers and Sierre, where they connect with trains to Lausanne - Geneva and to Visp (-Basel/Zurich).
The first bus from the Valley arrives at Sierre at 7.18 and the last bus leaves Sierre at 19.40. That means that it's perfectly possible to hike over Passes to other Valleys like Val d'Herens or Turtmanntal and to come back by bus.

Most popular hikes in the area:
Chandolin bus terminal - Tignousa rope railway station - Hotel Weisshorn - Zinal bus terminal,
Chandolin or Tignousa or Le Tchape chair lift - Bella Tola - Pas du Boeuf - Meidsee - Gruben (Gruben dp by bus 17.20 - Sierre ar 18.32),
Moiry bus stop - Col de Torrent - Villa bus stop - Evolene bus stop,
Bendolla gondola station - Pas de Lona - Eison bus Terminal,
Bendaolla gondola station - Cret du Midi gondola station, either via Orzival or via Pas de lona - Becs de bosson Hut - L'Ar du Tsan,
Vouarda gondola station - Corne de sorebois - Lake Chaeaupre - Col du Zate - La Forclaz bus stop - Les hauderes bus station,
Niouc les Saints Innocents bus stop - rope bridge - Les Voualans - Bisse des Sarrasins water channel - Pinsec - Mayoux bus stop - St-Jean bus stop - Grimentz,
Zinal - Tracuit Hut - Arpitettaz Hut - Zinal........

AOSTA VALLEY
Although I really like/love Aosta and Cogne, I wouldn't recommend these places for a longer stay.
Aosta is well a transport hub for the Central leg of the Valley, but the bus timetables don't make it easy to organize long day trips from there.
In the morning, there is only one bus from Aosta to each Valgrisenche (dp 7.45), Val de Rhemes dp 5.15) and Valsavaranche (dp 6.45).
For the way back, the last bus leaves Valgrisenche at 16.15, Valsavaranche at 18.15 and Rhemes at 17.55
Only the bus timetables from Aosta to Cogne and to Bionaz are suitable for day trips..
IMO Cogne doesn't offer many easy circular walks. In many cases, you have to turn back more or less along the same trail because of the high and rocky mountains around.
I see 3 exceptions:
Hike over the Fenetrel de Champorcher to Champorcher and back by bus Champorcher dp 17.10 (- Cogne ar 20.30),
Climb up 1800 metres to Col de Lauzon and down 1800 metres again to Degioz Valsavaranche in order to catch the 18.15 bus.(-Cogne ar 20.30, only a few minutes for bus change at Aosta),
Hike via Col de St-Marcel to Nus (1400m upwards, 2400m downwards).
Therefore I recommended Courmayeur (in front of Mont Blanc) and Gressoney (somewhat "behind Zermatt", 2 villages with several gondolas and local bus lines. Gressoney is much more scenic, but Courmayeur means Mont Blanc.

Thank you so much neckervd. That is amazing information. You have an encyclopedic knowledge and I really appreciate you sharing. As far as Aosta, is transportation to a different country a problem adding many complications? Also I understand English is fairly common in Switzerland, does that carry over into the Italian villages or will we have more of a communication barrier there? I'll look into Gressoney. After reading Melnq8's October trip the drier valleys you mentioned are sounding better :) I will definitely start my search with your recommendations.

AOSTA VALLEY
Language:
The mother tongue of most Valdotains is a ancient French dialect that people from Paris doesn't understand a all. With foreigners they speak good French, of course!
A minority speaks a Piedmontain dialect. Everybody speaks italian, the official language.
People working in tourism as well as younger generations speak English very well.

Access from Switzerland:
Flixbus Geneva - Courmayeur, 1-3 times daily, 2 1/2 hrs journey, fares start at 10 EUR/pax
Arriva Bus Chamonix - courmayeur, 1-4 times daily, 45 min journey, fare 15 EUR/pax
TMR/Arriva Bus Orsieres (Switzerland) - Aosta, with 500 walk between the Swiss and the Italian bus stop at Gd St-Bernard Pass. July and August only, 2times daily, 3 1/2 hrs journey, with long layover at Gd St-Bernard Pass.
Train via Lake Orta - Novara - Chivasso, fare 31 EUR/pax, with Swiss Travel Pass 15 EUR/pax
Brig dp 12.44 - Pont St. Martin ar 17.36
Brig dp 14.44 - Pont St. Martin ar 19.36
Brig dp 16.44 - Pont St. Martin ar 21.36
Matterhorn Alpine Crossing https://www.matterhornparadise.ch/en...lpine-Crossing
Cableway Zermatt - Furi - Trockener Steg - Kleinmatterhorn (3820 metres above sea level) - Testa Grigia (3480 m, Swiss/Italian border) - Cime Bianche (hiking trail to Ferraro Hut - Bettefurgge, about 9 hrs; last departure of the gondola from Bettefurgge to Gressoney at 17.15) - Plan Maison - Cervinia/Breuil bus station, from 7.00 until 15.00, 1 1/2 hrs journey, Fares start at 90 EUR/pax

Haven't been to Aosta yet, but the hiking network from Cogne seems more extensive than the network from Courmayeur. Also Cogne is at a higher altitude and there are none godolas there, or what? IMO that is a plus since it means less infrastructure and you can start to walk directly from the village. So it's a matter of taste if one prefers circular hikes or not.

Btw, Gressoney vs Champoluc for a village on the south side of Monte Rosa. Any persperctive there?

COGNE
Gondolas: the well known gondola to Montzeuc runs since more than 60 years anad has been completely refurbished in 1990.
The 2 chairlifts run in winter only.
There are hiking trails, of course. And as they all belonged to tht Royal hunting ground until 1945 which was then converted into the Gran Paradiso National Park, they are often in excellent condition.
But that cannot change the fact, that you remain alway in the same valley which you cnnot leave in the South because of the rocks and glaciers of Gran Paradiso and Torre del Gran San Pietro and only at 1 point each in the West resp. in the East, namely at Fenetre de Champorcher and Col de Lauzon.
You can do very interestng hikes in the North of Cogne (outside the national Park area), but they are all rather strenous, like
11 Lakes Hike Cogne -Gimillian - Lakes Lussert (13 km from Cogne, 2900 m above sea level) - Eastern Lake (14 km, 2700 m) - Pointe Laval (3000 m, 19 km) - Petite Chaux (2500 m, 14 km) - Petit Ayer (2900 m, 18 km) - Grand'Alpe (25 km, 2100 m) - Col du Ponton (2900 m/29 km) - Lake Miserin Hut (33 km/2550 m) - Fenetre de Champorcher (35 km, 2820 m) - Cogne (51 km/1530 m).
It's clear that I annot propose such things.
Therefore the length of the trail network cannot be the only criteria.

COURMAYEUR
Best hikes:
Col Checrouit/Maison Vielle gondola station - Lake Checrouit - Arp Vielle d'amont - Arp Vielle Dessous - (all in front of Western Mont Blanc) - Combal Hut - Lake Miage - Visaille bus station,
Col Checrouit/Maison Vielle gondola station - Col de la Youlaz - Crest trail (all in front ofWestern Mont Blanc) - Mont Fortin - Berrioz Blanc - La Thuile bus terminal,
Lavachey bus stop - Bonatti Hut - col entre deux Saus - Col Sapin - Tet34e de Bernarde - Mont de la Saxe - B Ertone Hut - Trappa - Courmayeur (all in front of Eastern Mont Blanc),
Les Suches gondola staation (above la Thuile) - Lake Bella Comba - Lake Ruitor - Deffeyes Hut/Ruitor Glacier - Comba Sorda - La Thuile bus terminal.

The highlight of Courmayeur is of course th gondola ride over Mont Blanc:
https://www.montebianco.com/en
Entreves/La Palud - Pointe Hellbronner - Aiguille du Midi - Chamonix and back by bus.

Since you have the option of visiting in fall, I strongly suggest that. We visited Murren in late October, and it was fantastic, but we definitely noted at least twice, "I bet this place is slammed in summer." I agonized over the weather, but we lucked out (a mixed blessing--it was the warmest October on record).
Some places had closed for the season already, or would soon, but we still managed to eat in hotel restaurants twice (unlike in some countries, hotel restaurants were great quality). This one also rents apartments: https://www.edelweiss-muerren.ch/en/Apartments/
I also searched here, and there are countless other rental sites: https://www.interhome.com/switzerlan...rland/muerren/
I ended up going with VRBO, but I left it very late because I wanted to see what the weather was going to be before choosing a location. Another bonus for October--accommodation prices lower than high season.
Murren was perfect because it was so easy to reach trails, go down to Lauterbrunnen for easy waterfall hikes on off days, go up to mountaintops, etc.. There is also a via ferrata and hang gliding for the more adventurous. We also stayed in Lucerne, lovely town with many mountain day trips, easy to reach from Zurich.
Nice thing about Switzerland is the high value for the money (even if it is more expensive than places we usually go)--you can not go wrong, there are passes to save on transport costs, and you can get to literal mountain peaks all on public transport!

Thank you for your input Yorkshire. It is funny you mentioned those two places because I started looking around that area as well. Mainly because it looked like there was a lot of waterfall centric hiking in that area (which makes sense being one of the wetter areas, thanks Neckvrd). I do realize the area is much more traveled so I am a little concerned about the crowds but maybe with the shoulder season it won't be so bad. We also were looking at the Lake Lucerne area as well. My wife really enjoys kayaking but I don't know if that will be too chilly in late September/early October which I do believe is the time frame we were going to aim for. The basic outline I have been looking at now is something like:

Fly into Zurich
Somewhere in the Lake Lucerne area (maybe even Lucerne) - 3-4 days (1 day on the lake, couple days doing day hikes, day in the city)
Murren/Wengen/Kandersteg 4-5 days (maybe a day on the lake, 3-4 days day hikes, relaxing day in the town, would like to see Lake Oeschinen)
Vissoie/St-Luc/Grimentz or Sass-Fee/Sass Grund 4-5 days (3 days day hikes, maybe a day trip to Zermatt if we decide we can't live without seeing it or a trail in the area, day relaxing in town)
Throw a castle in one of those places for my wife (who fell in love with them in Ireland) as well :)
Fly out of Zurich/Geneva/Milan

I feel like that will give us a good overview of multiple different parts of the country from larger city to smaller quieter mountain alpine town. Transportation seems good between them all with travel time around 3 hours in between. Am I traveling down the right path or is something not passing the sniff test?

Thank you again for everyone's help. Neckvrd, your knowledge of the area and especially the transportation system is so valuable. Planning around bus stops and connections is something I would have never even thought of and you provide is so readily. Thank you.

We spent five nights in Vissoie/St-Luc/Grimentz the past two Octobers, and it was anything but busy. Vissoie is a transport hub, and it did get a tiny bit busy at the main bus stop when all the buses gather to collect passengers for their various routes, but it certainly wasn't crowded.

The day we took the hike from St Luc to the Hotel Weisshorn we ran into quite a few people doing the same, as it was a beautiful day:

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...3c02ed7202.jpg
Lunch break Hotel Weisshorn

But once we got away from the funicular station, we didn't see many people on the trail:

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...b84be6dde6.jpg
Trail to Hotel Weisshorn

Here's a photo of Grimentz this past October:

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Grimentz

And the trail to Moiry Dam:

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Trail to Moiry Dam

We were also in Lucerne in late October and it was CRAZY busy, to the point we were overwhelmed. Especially around the Bahnhof and the lake where people were getting off boats. But, it's a city afterall. We find that we often feel crowd overload when we visit a city after having spent weeks in the Swiss countryside.

Can't get rid of that Spoiler tag - not sure where that came from.

That was kind of the thought on starting in Zurich and making our way down. Each place should get progressively less crowded and peaceful. Did you ever get outside of Lucerne to any of the smaller towns around the lake? I thought maybe one of them would offer a little more peace. If the lake is that crowded I don't know if we would enjoy a paddle on it.

Additionally, judging by nothing more than looking at the topographic map, I thought the travel between Lucerne area and Lauterbrunnen area would be more scenic then Zurich through Bern. It would break up the travel a little as well.
Zurich to Lucerne area ~50 minutes spend a few days then a ~3 hour trip to Lauterbrunnen
vs
either right off the plane ~3 hour trip to Lauterbrunnen or stay a night in Zurich.

I flew in and out of Zurich and the train is so efficient--I left on arrival for Montreux, departed Lucerne last morning for my outbound flight at noon.
With the option to travel in shoulder season, I would not worry about Lucerne being too crowded since you'll have the contrast of a mountain stay. I hate crowds myself, but am more tolerant in urban areas. I found it bustling but never overwhelming in October (did need dinner reservations).
Maybe look at Brienz and Thun for kayaking?

I'm not Melnq8, but we also visited there recently. We chose to stay in Weggis across the lake and just take a boat to visit Lucerne (which we also found overwhelmingly crowded, but we've been before so we only really went for a quick walk around). We found Weggis much more peaceful and relaxing, and a nice first stop after Zurich. It is walking distance to the cable car that goes up toward Mt. Rigi.

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Some remarks concerning post 29:
Forget Aosta Valley if you travel after mid September. Most lifts will no longer work in this period and at least 3/4 of the touristic infrastructure will be closed, despite the usually rather excellent weather.
There will be one exception however: the highest and most spectacular gondola line over the Alps from Zermatt to Cervinia/Breuil. Cf. post 23 (Matterhorn alpine crossing).

You will not be alone in the German speaking part of Switzerland between mid September and mid October as there will be automn school holidays in that area. Many Swiss families spend a week or two in mountain chalets or airbnbs during this period or make day trips from cities like Zurich, Basel or Berne if the weather is fine. Trains towards popular mountain destination may get crowded, especially in 2nd class and on weekends.

Lakes: In automn, it's not unusual to find fog in the morning along lakes and rivers. This fog will usually disappear after noon. In these situations, the higher you go, the more you will find sun and clear views whereas the lowlands will remain rather misty. The most sunny lakes are usually Lake Geneva (around Montreux), Lake Maggiore (around Locarno) and Lake Lugano, but even there, lidos/public bathing beaches close around Sept. 20th because it will just get too cold for water sports after that date.

AIRPORTS OF ZRH, GVA, MXP:
Milan (about 200.000 starts and landings/year) is by far the biggest airport among these 3, with 2 terminals (very distant from each other) and long ways between train station, bus station, check in and gates.
Zurich (about 275.000 starts and landings/year) is much smaller, with shorter ways and shorter queues.
Geneva (only 1 runway, about 170.000 starts and landings/year) is even smaller and very efficient too.

Access from the mountains by public transport::
ZRH: can be reached from almost everywhere in Switzerland every 30 or sometimes 60 min, but not all trains are direct.
Direct trains from Geneva, Lausanne, Berne, Lucerne, St. Gallen every 30 min
Direct trains from Basel, Neuchatel, Fribourg, Spiez, Thun, Biel/Bienne, Solothurn every 60 min
direct trains from Brig (Aletsch glacier), Visp (Zermatt, Saas Fee), Interlaken, every 120 min.

GVA: can be reached from almost everywhere in Switzerland every 30 or sometimes 60 min, but not all trains are direct.
Direct trains from Brig, Visp, Sierre, Sion, Martigny, Aigle, Montreux, Vevey, Zurich, Bern, Fribourg, every 30 min

MXP can be reached every hr from Lucerne, with train changes ar Arth-Goldau and Lugano
Best connections:from Western Switzerland:
Bern dp 11.34 - Spiez 12.05 - Visp 12.33 - Brig 12.44 - Gallarate ar 14.05, train change, Gallarate dp 14.16 - MXP T1 ar 14.41
Bern dp 18.34 - Spiez 19.05 - Visp 19.33 - Brig 19.44 - Gallarate ar 21.05, train change, Gallarate dp 21.16 - MXP T1 ar 21.41
Montreux dp 6.37 - Sion 7.13 - Brig 7.44 - Gallarate ar 9.05, train change, Gallarate dp 9.16 - MXP T1 ar 9.41

Did you ever get outside of Lucerne to any of the smaller towns around the lake? I thought maybe one of them would offer a little more peace. If the lake is that crowded I don't know if we would enjoy a paddle on it.

No, we just spent two nights in Lucerne at the end of the trip (October 21, 22). We'd been before and our primary reason for visiting this year was to visit a chocolate factory in Root and just wind down after a month of hiking. I rather like the suggestion of Weggis as an alternative.

Thank you Ms. Go. That is good to hear. I won't discount the Lake area yet.

I did some quick napkin math. With only the routing I talked about above, those trips priced for tomorrow (I know I could get cheaper saver passes on the actual trip) price out about $120pp (less than $10pp/day) cheaper than the two week unlimited pass. I assume I would easily surpass that just in local travel over 2 weeks? If it is even close it would probably be worth the peace of mind to just have unlimited travel and not have to worry about making saver trains. Am I correct that the travel pass does not cover the majority of gondolas?

Am I correct that the travel pass does not cover the majority of gondolas?

It provides a 50% reduction on most, but not all.

Details here:

https://www.swiss-pass.ch/swiss-pass/

The perk, for those traveling for 15 days or less, is convenience - you can just hop on and off covered transport at will (you'd still need to purchase tickets for any cable cars/funiculars/gondolas only covered at 50%).

During our most recent visit, we spent $1,317.73 on transport - of that, 240 chf was for our half fare cards, and about 160 chf was for full fare transport - our trip was 32 days, but our Half Fare Card was only good for 30. So, considering the bulk of our travel was at half fare, you can see how fast it adds up.

If you think you might want to do more than is included in your initial napkin math, it could well behoove you to go with a pass. It's nice to have that flexibility.

Keep in mind that the SBB app defaults to 1/2 fare, so make sure you're looking at full fare when making the comparison. This also applies to Saver day passes and Super Saver tickets.

And those Saver Passes may or may not be available when you want to buy them. You'll want to book them well in advance, which makes things less flexible. A Super Saver Pass is for a specific day, on a specific train or bus, so much less flexible.

SOME SWISS TRAIN, BUS AND GONDOLA STANDARD FARES, 2ND CLASS, VALID IN AUTOMN 2023

Zurich airport - Lucerne: 30 CHF/OW
Zurich airport - Brunnen (Lake Lucerne): 15 CHF/OW
Full Lake Lucerne cruise: 83 CHF/RT
Lucerne - Rigi Kulm: 100 CHF/RT
Lucerne - Wengen: 48 CHF/OW
Wengen - Jungfraujoch: 188 CHF/RT
Wengen - Zermatt: 98 CHF/OW
Zermatt - Matterhorn Paradise: 110 CHF/RT
Wenvgen - Saas Grund: 76 CHF
Saas Fee - Mittelalallin revolving glacier restaurant: 75 CHF/RT
Saas Grund - Hohsaas glacier restaurant:48 CHF/RT
Wengen - St-Luc/Zinal/Grimentz: 85 CHF/OW

SOME SWISS TRAIN, BUS AND GONDOLA STANDARD FARES, 2ND CLASS, VALID IN AUTOMN 2023

Zurich airport - Lucerne: 30 CHF/OW
Zurich airport - Brunnen (Lake Lucerne): 15 CHF/OW
Full Lake Lucerne cruise: 83 CHF/RT
Lucerne - Rigi Kulm: 100 CHF/RT
Lucerne - Wengen: 48 CHF/OW
Wengen - Jungfraujoch: 188 CHF/RT
Wengen - Zermatt: 98 CHF/OW
Zermatt - Matterhorn Paradise: 110 CHF/RT
Wenvgen - Saas Grund: 76 CHF
Saas Fee - Mittelalallin revolving glacier restaurant: 75 CHF/RT
Saas Grund - Hohsaas glacier restaurant:48 CHF/RT
Wengen - Zinal/Grimentz/St-Luc/Chandolin: 85 CHF/OW