Airb2b in Paris
 

Has anyone used the Airb2b service to book a place in Paris? We are traveling in August and would like to be in a central location in Paris as we only have 2 full days to see sites. We've seen some nice centralized flats available through Airb2b for $180 - $200/night. Have never used this service before so not sure if this is the way to go or if we should book a hotel. Thoughts?

Thanks!

Be aware that many of the properties advertised on AirBnB are illegal rentals.
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=...+paris+illegal

Since Airbnb knowingly list illegal rentals on their site, it is up to you to determine if the rental you are looking at is legal or not.

Besides the moral question of participating in an illegal activity, there are several other potential repercussions. The renter could get caught the week before you arrive and suddenly your booking is cancelled. Even worse, an inspector can arrive while you are there and inform you it is an illegal rental. Neighbours aware it is an Airbnb rental may well make it clear to you that you are not welcome in their building.

For two days, I'd go with a hotel.

We have our

Paris rental with air b&b for 4 days.

We used specialapartments.com

But I agree, you probably should consider a hotel for 2 days.

Happy planning.

For just two days a hotel would be better.

(BTW -- one doesn't rent from airbnb. It is just a listing site like vrbo. You are renting from individual owners so whether it is a nice apartment, or a responsive owner, or is actually as depicted in the photos . . . all depends on the person you are dealing with, not on airbnb)

we have been looking at VRBO and some look great

For two full days, you should stay in a hotel. Most all short term (less than 12 month) rentals are illegal in Paris and there has been a big enforcement push by the mayor´s office to curb the practice.

If you like the idea of having cooking facilities as part of your accommodation, take a look at Citadine or Adagio apartments.

I'd agree that two day stay should use a hotel. We stay at the Citadines near the Louvre and were quite happy.

We stayed at an Airbnb in Paris for 5 nights last Spring and had a good experience. (Marais location near Picasso museum.) There may be limitations on just staying 2 nights. I like the AIRBNB concept and it has worked well for us in NYC, Paris and next will be London. It may be true that for shorter stays it's not worth doing. Overall, we have loved our experience for getting well located, better priced places with kitchen convenience. Frankly, hotels can disappoint and are expensive. We mix it up. If we want service and style, we stay at a nice hotel. if we want to save $ and use it as a base of operation, we book Airbnb.

I'm not sure about recent restriction in Paris... so research it!

annealex: >> I like the AIRBNB concept and it has worked well for us in NYC, . . .<<

. . . which was almost certainly an illegal arrangement. NYC is much more restrictive than what Paris is doing now.

In cities in France with a population of 200,000 or more and also in the départements that surround Paris apartments can't be rented for less than one year, or 9 months to students, unless it is the owners main residence in which case it can be rented for up to 4 months of the year. There are other ways to get around this (buying an equivalent amount of commercial space and converting it to residential space) but it makes it virtually economically unfeasible.

The only thing people need to know is that no matter whether you are using a reputable agency or VRBO or AirBnB etc. is that the overwhelming majority of the short term apartment rentals in Paris are illegal. It's always been this way but only in recent years has city hall decided to crack down on this. Agencies have nothing to do with whether or not the apartment is legal and there is no such thing as a registry to list your apartment with the city. You are either in compliance with the law or you are not. So if you are renting an apt. in Paris the odds are overwhelmingly high that you are staying in an illegal rental.

BTW, I'm not making a judgement on anyone who wants to rent an apt. (I would probably do so myself if I were a visitor to Paris) but I keep seeing lots of misinformation about rental apts. in Paris on the various travel forums in which I participate.

It's Airbnb I presume, not airb2b.

I can't imagine why you'd need an apt for only a two night stay. Many Parisian apts do NOT have A/C, either, and it's easy to find a hotel that will. IN fact, August is the low rate season for hotels, I often get about 25 pct off in August, so if I were you, I'd take advantage of that fact. I would say AirBnB is slightly more of a service than VRBO from what I've heard, in that they hold the money in escrow or something that is a bit of a safeguard. I don't believe VRBO does anything, it's just an ad website.

<i> It's always been this way but only in recent years has city hall decided to crack down on this.</i>

True but much of the current law, to include how one obtains approval for a legal short term rental and penalties for noncompliance, was passed as recently as last year.

<i> there is no such thing as a registry to list your apartment with the city.</i>

There is indeed a list, albeit a short list, and much of the recent enforcement activity is aimed at explaining to owners the required steps to legally offer their properties as short term rentals. Many owners have not anxiously included their properties on the city´s list (actually each arrondissement keeps a list so there are 20) because many of them will not be able to comply with the strict requirements and will ultimately be forced either to sell their apartments or convert them to regular rentals with contracts for a period of not fewer than 12 months, 9 months for students.

To my knowledge the city´s consolidated list of approved short term rental apartments is not available on line but may be obtained by calling the Direction du développement économique de l´emploi et de l´enseignement supérieur (DDEEES) at 01 71 19 20 08.

As a larger number of apartments qualify as legal short term rentals, I assume that the list will be more easily available to tourists. In the meantime, advertisements for or information concerning legal short term apartments must reference the apartment lodging tax, similar to the hotel tax, which is €1 or €2 per person per night. Apartment listings, not including specific information about the lodging tax, likely represent properties not legally rented.

Sarastro - Since I live in Paris, I just called the number you mentioned. The gentleman told me that he does not have any list, and is not aware that such a list has been compiled by the City or anyone else.
He said that there is a list of requirements that must be met for anyone wishing to convert his property to short-term rental, and that is available online from the Mayor's website.
He suggested I call two other numbers: 01 42 76 30 33 (Direction de l'Office d'Habitation) and 01 42 76 36 53 (Direction de l'Office des Finances). I called them both, and each said that no such list exists.
Can you explain where you got your information?

We booked an Airbnb place in Paris last August; it said check-in was 5pm but we needed to drop bags at 3pm, so 10 days prior I wrote and asked if we could. Two days later no response, but we get a form letter from Airbnb saying people should write a week prior to make sure the booking is OK and if there is any last-minute info from the host. So I write again, and another 3 days go by without a response (also left phone messages on his voicemail).

We're leaving in a couple days, still haven't heard from the host, so we cancelled. We didn't want to be stuck with our luggage for a couple hours - - and wondering if the host had gone completely AWOL.

Instead I got a real nice 3* using express deals on Priceline. It was close to 50e/night/double, it was right by the Place de Clichy metro - - it was pleasant, pretty, clean, and comfortable (I only book properties rated 7+ or higher in Express Deals).

I contacted Airbnb and asked them to refund their commission, since the host was unresponsive. They said the host is a good host, and that he was "just travelling" during that time that we kept trying to contact him (mails and also phone calls). I mean, I travel too, but I still check my e-mail daily - - and I'm not the one running the business.

manouche - I wrote through the mayor´s office website. Here is the response I received reference to the list of sanctioned apartments:

_____________________


Monsieur

Suite à votre courriel, cette liste est en effet disponible pour le public : elle est centralisée à la DDEEES (Direction du développement économique, de l’emploi et de l'enseignement supérieur), et nous tenons un tableau des déclarants par arrondissement.

Il convient cependant de noter que cette liste est très incomplète, puisque très peu de gens pratiquant la location saisonnière se déclarent en mairie.

Vous pouvez joindre le bureau du commerce du tourisme en appelant l'accueil de la DDEEES au 01 71 19 20 08.


Cordialement,

L’Equipe Messages des Parisiens,

_____________________


As the letter states, few apartment owners have actually contacted the city to register the apartments they rent. What I had read earlier was that the city would keep a list of owners who were in full compliance with the law. I shouldn´t expect the list, if it exits and if anyone can find it, to be terribly long. The thrust of the law appears to want to make housing more affordable and available to families living in Paris. It does not seem to be written to benefit tourists wanting to avoid staying in hotels.

What started out as a good idea has unfortunately been overtaken by unscrupulous exploiters in it only for profit. The name Airbnb came about when 2 guys decided to offer to share their apartment with visitors during a major event in San Francisco. All hotels etc. were basicically full so they offered an AIRBED on the floor. An idea was born. Why not SHARE your space when a need exists. A perfectly good idea.

The B&B part is well known as meaning bed & breakfast. Again though, that is what has been overtaken by exploiters simply renting a property but not being present themselves on that property. An actual B&B is accepted everywhere including New York and Paris. But you have to be present on the property during the visitor's stay. Most of the listing on Airbnb today are NOT bed & breakfast properties at all. Many people do not understand this difference. An actual B&B is legal if you are there SHARING your property with the visitor.

No one even got excited when a few people were renting out their property while they were away on business or a vacation for a week or two a few times a year. It is not these 'small time' absentee listers that are the problem. It is as I said the exploiters who are the problem.

To understand just how big a problem they are, take a look at the following article on NYC where Airbnb were forced to hand over information which could then be analyzed. You will see that 6% of listers were multiple listers. That is one person offering more than one property for rent by the night. Does that sound like someone just trying to make a few extra bucks to you?

What's more, those 6% account for 37% of all revenue. More than 100 listers had more than 10 units for rent each and they took in $60M in 4 years! One lister has 272 listings and took in $6.8M alone.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenhue...s-are-illegal/

What started out as a reasonable idea has been taken over by exploiters who are not about participating in a 'sharing economy', they're all about making a lot of money. If you rent from them, you are enabling them.

Re the list you guys are arguing over. Lists of legal rentals do exist. Any listing on http://www.gites-de-france.com/ for example will be a legal rental since they screen members before listing them. More info here:
http://paris.angloinfo.com/informati...unning-a-gite/

The only list I would expect the city to have is a list of business licenses. They won't have a list as such, intended to hand out to tourists looking for a place to stay. I do know that the city of Paris has been encouraging those who are licensed, to include their license in any advertising they do including on listing sites such as Airbnb, VRBO, et al.

What started out as a good idea has unfortunately been overtaken by unscrupulous exploiters in it only for profit. The name Airbnb came about when 2 guys decided to offer to share their apartment with visitors during a major event in San Francisco. All hotels etc. were basicically full so they offered an AIRBED on the floor. An idea was born. Why not SHARE your space when a need exists. A perfectly good idea.

The B&B part is well known as meaning bed & breakfast. Again though, that is what has been overtaken by exploiters simply renting a property but not being present themselves on that property. An actual B&B is accepted everywhere including New York and Paris. But you have to be present on the property during the visitor's stay. Most of the listing on Airbnb today are NOT bed & breakfast properties at all. Many people do not understand this difference. An actual B&B is legal if you are there SHARING your property with the visitor.

No one even got excited when a few people were renting out their property while they were away on business or a vacation for a week or two a few times a year. It is not these 'small time' absentee listers that are the problem. It is as I said the exploiters who are the problem.

To understand just how big a problem they are, take a look at the following article on NYC where Airbnb were forced to hand over information which could then be analyzed. You will see that 6% of listers were multiple listers. That is one person offering more than one property for rent by the night. Does that sound like someone just trying to make a few extra bucks to you?

What's more, those 6% account for 37% of all revenue. More than 100 listers had more than 10 units for rent each and they took in $60M in 4 years! One lister has 272 listings and took in $6.8M alone.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ellenhue...s-are-illegal/

What started out as a reasonable idea has been taken over by exploiters who are not about participating in a 'sharing economy', they're all about making a lot of money. If you rent from them, you are enabling them.

Re the list you guys are arguing over. Lists of legal rentals do exist. Any listing on http://www.gites-de-france.com/ for example will be a legal rental since they screen members before listing them. More info here:
http://paris.angloinfo.com/informati...unning-a-gite/

The only list I would expect the city to have is a list of business licenses. They won't have a list as such, intended to hand out to tourists looking for a place to stay. I do know that the city of Paris has been encouraging those who are licensed, to include their license in any advertising they do including on listing sites such as Airbnb, VRBO, et al.

Obviously there is conflicting info depending on who you call/write, a classic case of different bureaucratic agencies not being in touch with or coordinating with one another (reminds me of préfecture). At any rate, the requirements to create a legal short term rental are so restrictive and cost prohibitive that as I mentioned earlier, it is essentially totally economically unfeasible to do so in the overwhelming majority of cases.

Sojountraveler - No one said there are no legal short term rentals in France. As I stated:

"In cities in France with a population of 200,000 or more and also in the départements that surround Paris apartments can't be rented for less than one year, or 9 months to students, unless it is the owners main residence in which case it can be rented for up to 4 months of the year. There are other ways to get around this (buying an equivalent amount of commercial space and converting it to residential space) but it makes it virtually economically unfeasible."

So if you live in a city/town/village with a population of under 200,000 and aren't in one of the départements adjacent to Paris then you can legally rent short term.

Can you explain what licenses you are talking about

Darn, I got cut off before finishing:

Can you explain what licenses you are talking about and what legal document can you reference to verify this? Other than what Sarastro has mentioned (which can't be accurately verified as shown by manouche) as far as I am aware there is no license for short term rentals and you are either in compliance with the law or you are not.

I think something has been lost in translation - or maybe wishful thinking.

Since it was raining and I didn't have anything better to do today, I spent a couple of hours poring through the entire DDEES website - multiple pages of reports on studies (which were commissioned by the City of Paris) on short-term rentals (people needing housing while looking for employment or during a work assignment, families in transition during a divorce, owners having work done on their property that prohibits their moving in until that's finished, tourists renting for a period of one month or less).

The information did include the steps that must be taken before someone may apply for authorization to rent a furnished apartment for a short term - less than 9 months to a student or 1 year, otherwise. They include, but are not limited to:
* all the residents in the building must agree to change their personal tax status from residential to the much higher commercial level
* the person(s) wishing to rent short-term must construct or provide an existing lodging of equal size to the rental property somewhere in Paris (to replace the rental that is "lost" to the general public)
* the rental income and a room tax (set by the City) must be collected and declared to the proper tax authorities
* the co-op board must vote to allow short-term rentals in the building.

There was an explanation of the steps the Mayor's Task Force follows in finding and investigating vacation rentals:
* searches are conducted following complaints by other residents in the building and/or neighborhood. Investigations begin via an internet search of the property, then are followed by a physical investigation.
* the Task Force does have the authority to enter the rental premises, with or without the knowledge or presence of the owner, his representative, or the tenants. The inspectors may question the building's gardiennes, neighbors, as well as anyone staying in the apartment.
* when enough evidence is compiled and submitted to the City, any and all sanctions and fines will be levied against the owner. At this time, no further rentals may be honored and the property listings must be removed from the websites. An owner may appeal the sanction, but will not be permitted to rent during the appeal.
* There was a list of all vacation rental companies having an internet presence - I believe there were about 300 of them, many listing multiple properties.

There is no guarantee that authorization will be granted by the City of Paris, even if someone jumps through all the hoops and does exactly what is requested. It appears to be very difficult, if not impossible, to comply with all the regulations. The co-op board has the final authority, since the quality of life of the building's residents is viewed as more important than the City's housing shortage.

There is no "short-term rental license" - as there is for official Bed and Breakfasts, gites, hotels or other lodgings that are registered by the City and inspected on a yearly basis. I did not find a mention of any list.

There is apparently some confusion over short-term rentals which advertise on the Official Paris Tourist Bureau website. Though this would seem to imply that these listings are approved by the City, it is important to realize that this is simply paid advertising, which is available to anyone who has the means to pay for it. It is misleading, but this tactic is common in many cities, not just Paris.

I forgot one more thing -
Ground floor apartments - and sometimes certain upper floors - which are already considered commercial spaces are usually approved by the City as legal short-term rentals - though the owners must still apply for a "change of use order".
These spaces were used for law offices, doctor's offices, other commercial ventures. However, the rule about the co-op approving short-term rentals still applies.
The report stated that there are an estimated 20,000 short-term rentals listed on the internet. Only an estimated 2% of these are considered legal rentals.

manouche - what you have found is basically what I have found, with exceptions in italics as follows:

<i>There are certain arrondissements, such as the 4th, 5th, and 6th</i>, which require the person(s) wishing to rent short-term must construct or provide an existing lodging <i>of double the size</i> to the rental property in <i>the same arrondissement</i> as is found the short term rental.

I believe that these more stringent requirements were passed by the legislature late last year.

What this means, as I review the situation, is that the vacation apartment business in Paris, or in any city in France with more than 200,000 inhabitants, is basically over or soon will be. Available vacation apartments will diminish as more and more owners either convert short term properties to leased properties of at least 1 year duration or they sell their apartments.

What will remain to those interested in renting apartments for their visits to Pairs will be the few legally sanctioned apartments, apartment/hotels such as Citadine or Adagio, or apartments offered by their primary residents for a period not to exceed 4 months per year.

There is a big change underway in the short term rental market in Paris.

norahe; We will be in Paris in July and I have no problem using Airb&b to secure our rental for 4 nights.

When you consider the millions of people who use this company, there is always a few problems.

But it does seem like a hotel would be a better option for you.

My wife and I are taking my sister, her friend, my GD and her boyfriend to Paris and needed 3 bedrooms.

This was the best option for us.

>> We will be in Paris in July and I have no problem using Airb&b to secure our rental for 4 nights.

When you consider the millions of people who use this company, there is always a few problems.<<

iris: The thing is the rules are now being <u>enforced</u>.. Many (MANY) Fodorites have successfully rented apartments in Paris (I've rented 5 or 6) . . . but them's then, this is now . . . it is a different situation today.

How many have been displaced?

How many have been displaced in Paris? That's what people need to know, otherwise

It's a scare tactic. IMO.

Airb&b has had a number of problems in different cities and I believe they are trying to adjust to current regulations.

>>Airb&b has had a number of problems in different cities and I believe they are trying to adjust to current regulations.<<

The situation in Paris isn't anything airbnb can 'adjust' to really . . . It is like NYC. essentially most private short term rentals are simply illegal.

Fine; we are going.

I still want to know how many people renting with these agencies, be it VBRO, Airb&nb, Paris Perfect and many others have been displaced when they do short term rentals.

Just asking!

'the person(s) wishing to rent short-term must construct or provide an existing lodging of equal size to the rental property somewhere in Paris (to replace the rental that is "lost" to the general public)'

The point about Airbnb is that it ISN'T a letting agency for people with property portfolios - it is about people letting out their own home THAT THEY LIVE IN FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME on an occasional basis - so no property has been 'lost' to the rental market and it doesn't need replacing.

It's quite clear that regulations designed to ensure private property rentals as main homes or businesses are let legally are being erroneously applied here. I would bet Paris (and probably many other countries) will soon come up with similar legislation to London which recognises the difference between someone letting to the residential or year round holiday market vs occasional use of an owner-occupied residence.

As I mentioned, it is legal to rent out your residence for up to 4 months a year if it is your main residence (not a second residence), even in Paris (which is a city with a population of over 200,000). If you don't live in a city with a population of over 200,000 or in the départements that are adjacent to Paris then these rules don't apply and you are free to rent for whatever length of time you wish.

The basic idea behind AirBnB is for people who live a residence (being their primary residence) to rent it out, which actually is allowed even in Paris (following the 4 months out of a year rule) but some people on AirBnB are listing multiple units, which means they are investors rather than home owners.

BTW - Thanks to Sarastro and manouche who have gone way above and beyond the call of duty to diligently research the situation and provide relevant info on just about every aspect of the legalities of short term rentals in France.

Renting from AirBnB in Paris is like renting from Craig's List.

The majority of people living in Paris full-time would not allow strangers in their residence. Imagine what it would take to secure your valuables, paperwork, make room for someone's belongings in an already-overcrowded closet and apartment. Many years ago in the US, I rented my home through VRBO - never again. I can't fathom trying to do this in Paris.

When you see listings featuring pristine apartments, with no evidence that someone actually lives there - this is a guarantee that this is an illegal short-term rental masquerading as a "real" apartment. Of course, people will believe that fantasy - especially if they can save money.

The majority of people listing on AirBnB are tenants who are trying to make a fast buck. The majority of long-term leases forbid sub-leasing the property. The problem arises when the owner discovers the tenant is sub-leasing. The tenant may be threatened with eviction, so the rental will be cancelled, often at the last minute. You'll get your money back from AirBnB, but will have to find another place to stay without anyone's help.

FrenchMystique, any gite found here is legal:
http://en.gites-de-france.com/list.h...ence&lnoident=

Manouche wrote, "There is no "short-term rental license" - as there is for official Bed and Breakfasts, gites, hotels or other lodgings that are registered by the City and inspected on a yearly basis. I did not find a mention of any list."

That is contradictory manouche. A 'gite' IS a short-term rental and is licensed. That's the point, a list of licensed GITES exist. The list of gites is THE list of legal short-term rentals.

Iris1745, let's tell it like it is. Have you determined if the apartment you plan to rent is a legal rental or not? If not, what are you then saying? That you don't care if it is legal or not, as long as you get away with it? Stand up and say outright that your selfish interests outweigh any moral responsibility for aiding and abetting illegal activity.

RM67, how could you possibly conclude, "The point about Airbnb is that it ISN'T a letting agency for people with property portfolios - it is about people letting out their own home THAT THEY LIVE IN FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME on an occasional basis - so no property has been 'lost' to the rental market and it doesn't need replacing."

Where is the evidence to support that statement? The evidence overwhelmingly supports the opposite. While only 6% of NYC listers are multiple listers, they account for 37% of all revenue. While some listers do only list a single property for a place 'they live in for the majority of the time', there are also many single property listers who do not live in the property at all and rent it out as many nights per year as they can. What's more, most of those aren't even owners of the property. They are renting the property on a yearly lease and then sub-renting it by the night! An exploiter with just one property is no better than the exploiter with 272 properties listed.

The real 'point' about Airbnb is that they KNOWINGLY list these properties and do not want to remove them. They make money by listing and collecting their percentage, not by doing what is right.

Let's be honest. People who rent the apartment for their vacation are interested on only one thing. Money. That is what is driving it all. Sadly, we live today in a society where selfishness outweighs morality.

It is one thing to not know about a situation and therefore unknowingly contribute to something that is wrong. It is another thing to be told about it and then try to find a way to justify selfish behaviour. There is a term for that, it's called 'situational morality'. People have no problem convincing themselves that they are doing nothing wrong if the outcome is in their favour. Screw everyboby else.

-FrenchMystique, any gite found here is legal:
http://en.gites-de-france.com/list.h...ence&lnoident= -

For sure? Have you stayed in one of these gites in Paris? Some nice looking places there.

bookmarking.

>>Let's be honest. People who rent the apartment for their vacation are interested on only one thing. Money.<<

So untrue to be laughable. And apartment <i>might</i> cost less . . . or might cost more. But a flat has many advantages regardless of cost -- will generally have much more space, a kitchen/ette, washer dryer, etc. I've rented many apartments when I could have got a hotel room for less.

Interesting comments and for one of the most disrespectful people on this thread, I know the answer to your first question.

B

But then you go on a rant and I now have no inclination to answer the question.

I also used Airb&b to find a villa in Nice.

www.niceholidayvilla.com

P.S. I feel so sorry for you and your attitude.

Learn a lesson from janisj, direst, pointed, but attempting to help.

ST; You have a good day.

Back to the OP - I will second Sarastro and suggest you look at the 'Citadines' hotel chain whihch offers legal studios in a 'hotel' context in various locations in Paris for short stays, including stays of only 2 days, starting at around &euro; 130. The apartments are generally studios with the odd 1 bedroom (the 1BR usually can sleep more than 2 people.) The kitchens are very compact, but will work for light meals.

There is breakfast offered on site for a small extra fee, and usually some kind of laundry area.

Because this is a reputable commercial chain, you can be sure of reasonable quality (and safety) standards. Also, again because it is in a 'hotel' context you will find contacting the place easy, plus you can arrive and drop bags virtually any time.

I am grateful to the other posters for their spirited debate about Airbnb, I learned quite a bit. Including why it is called airbnb (I had originally thought somehow it offered airfare in conjunction with a Bnb !!)