Just wondering -- does Twitter have a private message function or are you exposing your life to everybody in the world by tweeting? I don't use Twitter enough to know such things.

If you are going to use twitter to complain then the whole point of it is that the complaint is exposed to everyone who follows Air France or whoever the complaint is aimed at. Companies hate those sorts of social media complaints for that very reason.

I had a problem with a phone provider and my daughter complained on twitter about it. The problem was resolved within an hour and that was in a Sunday!

kerouac...yes, twitter does have a private message function. The way it has worked with me in the past (with Delta) is that I put out a tweet with my issue and Delta tweeted back and asked me to send more information (such as ticket number/confirmation number) to them via private message.

But yes, the real point of why they respond is the public nature of the Twitter forum. Your Twitter identity does not have to include your actual name, if you choose not to use it.

You can only send truly private messages between fellow followers--that is two Twitter account holders who mutually follow each other. But if I tweet to Air France, for example, everyone and anyone who looks at the Air France twitter feed will see my words, but they will only know the identity that I chose to share as my Twitter name....Hard to explain, but becomes clear upon using it for a while.

The poster above tweeted to Delta and then it appears that Delta started to follow them and that allowed them to continue their communication privately. But the public aspect at the start is what lights the fire under them.

Air France tweeted us privately and asked for our reference number and we gave that to them privately.

I think it is pathetic that a company has different service standards for people who complain on Twitter to those following normal routes. What on earth does that say about how they respect their customers.

Irock5, are you actually doing things and appreciating your trip to France or spending all of your time getting compensation for the downgrade? I approve of people who follow up problems (I always do and I even fought with a motel in Georgia for 7 months after my last trip to the U.S.), but I do tend to put such things aside until I have completed my trip.

socialworker, that's interesting that you were able to get seat assignments on your airfrance/delta flight. We booked about 2 months in advance, and as far as I know we did HAVE seat assignments. They showed up on my reservation, and I did it over the phone, the agent told me I had them. When we arrived to check in, we were told we didn't have them. I don't know if we never did, or if they got cancelled when we didn't check in 24 hours in advance.

My issue is that my DH and I book 3 seats for 2 people for the extra space. We need them to be in a row, or we might as well throw our money away. We often cannot checkin on-line because we have no passport for the 3rd seat, and most airline systems have trouble with this. Heck, most desk agents at the airport have trouble with this.

Jetblue is the first airline I have encountered who handled the extra seat business flawlessly.

Oooh, china_cat, I wonder if I lied.....:)

We flew into London and back from Paris and when I look up the receipt, I see the seat assignments to London but the AF segment says "Not Assigned"....BUT, I remember that I *did* have assignments b/c I told DH not to freak out about it saying not assigned. They just did not show up for whatever reason. Since it was our return flt, I remember stressing about it less, but it is coming back to me that when we checked in at AF in Paris, that we did have them. I am just not helpful b/c since I was doing this a year ago, I cannot remember how I did it.

In your case where you are paying for an extra seat, it is crucial that you know upfront. Can they not just assign 2 seats to one of the travelers and do it that way to circumvent the passport issue. I would be very irritated if I were in your shoes!

FWIW we were traveling on miles and they may be a confounding variable.

Kerouac, I think the problem occurred on their flight home, not on the flight to Paris. A trip report might be good though.

Oh, right, I missed that for some strange reason (otherwise known as "not paying attention").

Yes, I will post a trip report eventually. I just got a response from AF and apparently they think they do not owe us the 75% compensation just $420 per seat. I thought this was a EU rule for downgrades.

When you call AF in the US you get Delta. I spoke to a supervisor who knows nothing about EU compensation rules and she had me fill out a EU compensation form on Delta. I did that and now we get to wait to see what will happen. They make it really hard to get compensation. I think that most people would probably just think they got some money and move on as they really give you no information. If not for this website, I would not know about them (EU rules). That is disturbing.

They make it really hard to get compensation. I think that most people would probably just think they got some money and move on as they really give you no information.>>

well, congrats to you for your persistence. i think they rely on people not knowing their rights and giving up after they get knocked back a time or two.

I had a somewhat similar exprience with Delta from Paris a few years ago. My lesson learned, was to put my complaint in writing, be clear about my expectations and be direct. I also looked up the names of the Delta customer service Execs on Google finance and copied them in on the letter.... two weeks later I got a very polite apoologetic call, miles credited to my account that covered another trip to Europe for each of us and refunds. I was speachless....

I had a somewhat similar exprience with Delta from Paris a few years ago. My lesson learned, was to put my complaint in writing, be clear about my expectations and be direct. I also looked up the names of the Delta customer service Execs on Google finance and copied them in on the letter.... two weeks later I got a very polite apoologetic call, miles credited to my account that covered another trip to Europe for each of us and refunds. I was speachless....

In the letter I would include a link to this discussion.

Working for an airline for 35 years, I was told never to spontaneously offer any sort of refund if it was not requested. I completely ignored this directive and refunded all sorts of things on my own initiative. I even refunded quite a few non refundable tickets. I'm sure that the airline has become much more profitable since I left.

Thanks, I rock, for posting this. I learned a lot about downgrades, twitter , etc and now a major airline is probably much more profitable without Kerouac :-)).

lrock - if I am reading correctly, two of the three passengers were involuntarily downgraded and the third person chose to give up the upgrade. Does that mean the Article 10.2(c)of Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004 AF compensation of 75% of the fare for that segment is owing to just the two?
At 75%, $420 would equate to a OW fare of $560, or a R/T fare of $1120. Is that close to what you paid?

I also note that the same article requires that the compensation be paid within seven days according as outlined in Article 7(3) - i.e., "in cash, by electronic bank transfer, bank orders or bank cheques or, <u>with the signed agreement of the passenger</u>, in travel vouchers and/or other services" (emphasis mine - meaning they can't claim that travel vouchers are your reimbursement unless you agree to that and they cannot force you to agree) It's already well past that date, wonder if that has any additional penalty?

Maybe kerouac or someone with similar professional insight can comment...

No I paid $1800 each for those seats. So they owe me upwards of $1300 each for at least 2 seats. After conferring with the flight attendants who offered to write a statement for us, I asked for all 3. I may not get that but they owe for 2 seats. I know that this was supposed to be done within 7 days and they were also supposed to let us know before walking on the plane and they were supposed to let us know our rights. The only thing the gate crew said was to ask Houston for a refund.

After posting on twitter we received a $200 voucher as a goodwill gesture for how badly we were treated, but legally they owe us a refund. I have read that AF has been hit a few times for trying to skirt the EU rules so I don't know why they are making this so hard. I just want to get my money back, put it behind us and plan another trip next year.

Have you filled out anything like this? https://www.airfrance.fr/FR/fr/local...eclamation.htm

If you can't do it in French, maybe there's an English equivalent or you can get someone to translate for you.

Actually, this might be more useful:

http://onyoursi.de/wiki/airline/air-france/

Thank you StCirq. Yes, I actually filled out the American version of that form on the Air France US site. That is where they refunded $840 and said if I had any more claims to contact customer service. Customer service is Delta. Delta had me fill out a form for EU compensation and told me I would get an automatic reply and would get a case number. Nothing yet. I understand companies want to pay the least possible, but this is a problem of AF's making and I just want my money back and to move on. But i am not going to just give up and take the $840 when they owe us a lot more. Since we started going to Paris in 2006 we have used them every year sometimes twice a year and we were treated poorly this time.

But look at the second website and contact the Florida (???) office, and the CEO.

Do you want me to write a kick-ass letter to the CEO in French? My French translators can do that. It's imperative that you get to the higher-ups!

I can call the Florida number for customer relations. Every number i have called so far has been a Delata person as they take all AF call in the US. Delta acts like they know nothing about EU regulations. Af has made it impossible to talk to anyone at all.

We are planning a February trip to Paris. If I let you write ah letter for me will I still be allowed to fly AF? HaHa!

St Cirq is right - you have to get to the senior leaders. Reality is they will never see the letter. Every major company has a team of people that deal with nail to the senior execs. Look up names for Delta execs on yahoo finance. You may find some info on AF if you google...... and for good measure I always CC in a lawyer...... I just make one up.....

<<I just make one up>> :)

AIR FRANCE HEADQUARTERS
45, rue de Paris
95747 Roissy-CDG Cedex, France
ph: 33 (0)141567800; toll-free ph: 1-800-237-2747
website: http://www.airfrance.com
JEAN-CYRIL SPINETTA, Chairman and CEO
PIERRE-HENRI GOURGEON, President and Chief Operating Officer
PHILIPPE CALAVIA, Chief Financial Officer
AUGUSTE GAYTE, Executive Vice President - Coordination
PATRICK ALEXANDRE, Executive Vice President - International Commercial Affairs
ALAIN BASSIL, Executive Vice President - Air France Industries
CHRISTIAN BOIREAU, Executive Vice President - Commercial France
MARC BOUDIER, Executive Vice President - Air France Cargo
JEAN-FRANCOIS COLIN, Executive Vice President - Social Policy
PASCAL DE IZAGUIRRE, Executive Vice President - Ground Operations
BRUNO MATHEU, Executive Vice President - Marketing and Network Management
JACQUES PICHOT, Secretary General
GILBERT ROVETTO, Executive Vice President - Flight Operations

StCirq,

Should I mail letters or e-mail if I can find e-mail addresses and are you still willing to help with a kick ass letter in French? I got a really crappy response from Delta for Air France that said that Premium Economy was not a different class than economy, just a more expensive seat and that the $420 refund is all we are entitled to. We only get Eu compensation if we are downgraded from Business to economy. However, there are 4 distinct classes on their website and if you google classes on AF Premium Economy is a different class than economy. They are trying to skirt the issue and not pay Eu compensation.

When i spoke to someone at Delta who finally told me to fill out a claim form on their site, she told me she knew nothing about EU compensation. Now they are experts. Crazy

lrock: I would send certified letters by mail (though quite honestly, I'm not sure how certified international mail works - you might check on that). And yes, I can help with the French translations (wouldn't do it myself, because I'm not a certified translator, though my French is good, but I have friends/colleagues who can).

It would be helpful if you could post/re-post the actual language of the AF or other rule that defines the classes and the actual amount that is required to be compensated, so that we could refer to that (preferably in French) in the letter(s).

I agree that AF defines Premium Economy as a separate class from Economy. It would also be helpful if you could find a URL that defines the classes (I'll look for it in French as well).

StCirq,

I will get all of this together this weekend. I need to get all of my documentation together and work is crazy. Is there any way to send this to you privately? Also, when I type in Air Farnce Premium Economy and then Air Farnce Economy, they both come up as different classes on google.

The letter from Delta that defines what compensation we are to receive is full full of inaccurate information. They have my sister-in-law's name wrong (different last name altogether0 and they refer to conversations that they say I had with the refunds department. I haave never spoken to anyone in refunds. Air France makes it almost impossible to contact anyone by phone. Every e-mail they send you has a non returnable address so you cannot respond. The letter from Delta also has the different classes on Air France listed incorrectly. They refer to Business Class as La Premiere although Premiere is first class.

They are just looking for a way to get around EU rules. Eu rules say that a downgrade is a class that is less than the class for which you paid. Air France advertises Premium Economy as a better class than economy. It is a separate cabain, like business, the seats are bigger, like business, and the food is different and better.

Why on earth would anyone pay 7 to 8 hundred dollars more for a Premium Economy if they can just bump you and their are no consequences for that bump. The Eu tried to enact rules to stop bad behavior but AF is defining is trying to wiggle out as I have since read they have tried to do in the past also.

All I can say is buy Premium Economy at your peril. When it works it is great. When it doesn't it is a pain as they don't want to pay EU compensation. I also hope if it happens to someone else, they let you know before you are walking on the plane.

irock - an expensive lesson to learn.

i suspect that all of the people in St. Cirq's list would understand a pithy english letter setting out your complaint a note that you're returning to France soon and if you don't get a refund and compensation you'll be instructing a french lawyer.

you might also copy your letter to the EU commissioner for transport.

in case you haven't seen it, I'm copying you a form which you can use to register your complaint with the relevant french authority.

good luck!

Annhig,

Very expensive for 3 Premium Economy seats. I have no problem filling out whatever form I need to and complain. I may not get anything back, but I definitely won't if I don't try. Our plan is to return to Paris next February for a week. Hopefully, we can use our miles to book at least part of the trip. I will probably just use what I can now as my days of loyalty to Air France are over.

lrock5:

My email address is StCirq at aol dot com. Can't promise to get through it all this weekend, as I'm on a deadline for a project, but I'll at least get started or get back to you with suggestions or questions.

Thanks a bunch. I am going to start this weekend too as this has been a busy week hee as well.

Irock - do keep us posted with how you get on.

they rely on people not doing anything so they can get away with this sort of thing.

I most certainly will. Thank you for the support!

StCirq,

I just e-mailed all of the info to you. Hopefully it all makes sense.

It isn't just google, I'm pricing an Air France ticket now for next summer, and I've bought many before -- right on their website, they list 4 classes, economy, premium economy, business and La Premiere (or first). So whatever they advertise, their own website lists it as a separate class of ticket. If you use their website as if you lived in France, they list 5 categories: 2 classes of economy (the cheapest ticket and one more flexible), as well as premium economy, business and Premiere. They still use those words on the French website (economy and premium economy). They used to have something they called Tempo or voyageur for economy, as I recall.

Christina,

I bought ours on the AF website and they have 4 classes on there listed. They just don't want to pay EU compensation for them after they downgrade you. As per their e-mail premium economy is just a better seat not a different class. However, on the plane it is a different and separate cabin, better and different food, the cabin is curtained off, etc. They are saying what they have to not to pay the compensation.

Groan. We're flying Air France (hopefully in) premium economy LAX-CDG-LAX in the fall. This is the first time in 15+ years that I've bought tickets (as opposed to using miles) and specifically wanted premium economy seats, so I hope I don't get burned.

I'll be watching this thread with interest and hope to see that you got your full refund.