African American in Italy
 

As an African American travelling to Italy (Rome, Florence, and Venice) in October, what can I expect in terms of attitude? I must admit I have some concerns about being treated unfairly...in other words being discriminated against because of the color of my skin. Would like to hear about your experiences. Thank you.

Oh come on, I don't know! Elise was asking a very valid and intellegent questions and you respond with a very ignorant response! <BR> <BR>I am Irish-American and proud to be a "hyphenated" American. I love my Irish heritage and being proud to be Irish in no way is a knock against America. so quit with the racist knocks about the use of the term, African American. <BR> <BR>For Elise: I have not been to Europe yet, planning to go in 2002. There is a post below about "Any recent problems with racism" about Italy that stated there should be no problems. I have African American friends who have been to Switzerland and England and said they had a fab time - no problems at all. The one country that I have heard stories about, however, is Germany. Had a friend who went there and was fussed at in the street in German until he began speaking "American". The German appologized, but it was clear that the altercation was due to the fact that he was thought to be an emigrant. <BR>

Speaking with a minimal amount of experience, I would suggest that Europeans are somewhat more tolerant. Remember, the elite of Africa for a century tended to be educated in European universities; colonial or not, the effect was that blacks were not be assumed to be unimportant uneducated menials. Remember, Ghandi got a full education in Oxford, and South Africa was his first encounter with extreme racism. (Yes, I know he was otherwise-hyphened). Of course, much of this has changed in France and England in the last generation... don't know about Italy.

Interesting and very valid question. Italy is very homogeneous and for the most part people are not used to living with different cultures like in major US cities. They also don't have the political correctness we have here - for example it is acceptable to hold rallies for "Immigrants Go Home." As a Jewish American (not as apparent as your skin color but I guess apparent enough), often in conversation with people I just met I would be asked "Are you a Jew?" At first I'd be taken aback but then I considered the source. Italy is my favorite country in the world, but there is one thing I have to say - the shopkeepers, hotel staff, etc are often very rude... dont be quick to attribute that to your race, they are like that with everyone! <BR>Have a great trip!

It is individuals like (don'[email protected]) who I am concerned about. Such ignorance! Scary!! <BR> <BR>Thanks to all the others for your sincere and educated responses. <BR> <BR>I am a very open minded person...I enjoy travelling and meeting people of different cultures. However, I have seen on U.S. news recently the public display of hatred by SOME Italian sport spectators towards Black players on the Italian soccer team. My concern is whether that kind of attitude carries over outside of the sports arena. <BR>

Elise, Ignoring Don't Know's responses, which should be asked to everyone... not specifically African Americans... my travel partner is African American and we've spent a couple of months in Italy. She hasn't noticed any different at all. Maybe there is even less "attitude" than there is here in California. We read in one guide book once that Italian men were especially attracted to blondes and African American women. Just be friendly, open-minded, and careful not to tread on other's cultures and people respond in kind. Have a great trip!

Hi, Elise - just thought I would confirm some of the other responses and let you know that it has been my experience that the Europeans in general are much more tolerant of differences in culture, language, and yes, skin color. As one of the respondents said, go with curiosity about the marvels you will see and respect for the people, and it will be returned. I have never found the clerks, hotel attendants, or any of the other service personnel in Italy to be rude, at all, nor to expect one to communicate in Italian. A few words, extended in a friendly fashion, are well-appreciated, however. You are going to some of the most beautiful places on the planet - Venice is a place I could return to again and again, as is Florence. Have a wonderful time!

Elise, <BR>Ignore the ignorant poster who keeps replying to your question. You can expect to be better treated in Italy by virtue of the fact that you are American than a "native" African would be, regardless of their ability to speak the language. Believe me, many people will guess that you are American before you even open your mouth. Your style of dress, hair style, etc. is often just different enough for Europeans to be able to make the distinction. <BR> <BR>Your concerns about the racist behaviour in some football stadiums directed toward Black players is understandable. I should point out to "don't know" that the players who were racially taunted were often players who had been in Italy for a number of years and did speak the language. One of my favorite players, Lillian Thuram, declined to play for Lazio in Rome this season in part because of the racist behaviour of some of their "fans." <BR> <BR>I think this reprehensible behaviour has caused a lot of soul searching in Italy about true attitudes toward immigrants. As someone else stated, Italy has been a very homogenous country with far more emigration than immigration in its past. Only now are Italians starting to confront some of these racial issues. <BR>

Friendly advice for a change. <BR> I was in Italy as recently as May. I am a black person as well. I did not get any racist attitudes from the Italians I met. I visited Rome, Naples, and the Riviera up north. I did not like Italy for other reasons; i.e.:too many crooks trying to rip you off, etc. How ever, I did not feel that I was discriminated against there at all. I do not see any reason to fear. Hope you have a better time than I did.

Elise: I have been living here for many years. I have many close friends that are African American that live here as well. <BR>I agree with what Lisa (above post) wrote. <BR>We use to discuss the difference between living here and in the US. <BR>I can tell you they are all married to white italians and have children. <BR>They all say the same that they are treated better here than at home. <BR>I have noticed that when I am out with them shopping, that they are not treated any different than I. <BR>I see others on the street and never noticed any one treating them different. <BR>Like Elise said, usually before you even open your mouth, one can tell you are american. <BR>Also, the people here really were upset over the racism at the stadiums. <BR>The journalists really gave them a bad rap and everyone is glad. <BR>Since you know about this story, did you also notice how well those players fellow teammates stood up for them? <BR>If you happen to run into people that are rude while here, or try to rip you off, don't think it is becaue of your color, it will be because you are a tourist. <BR>I hope you have a great trip and not let your worried ruin it. <BR>

I don't THINK you'll have a problem. In general, Italians are not especially racist as a group, and I think may be LESS racist than many other nationalities. However, they may be more inquisitive than most and they definitely do stare, especially in small towns in the south. If you go to small towns off the beaten track they will certainly stare at you quite a bit. Just say a friendly "buongiorno" or, after 4p.m. or so, "buona sera" to everyone you pass on the street and everything will be fine. The stares are not hostile. I got them, too, and I look just like them.

If anyone is seriously interested in how African Americans are thought of in Europe, specifically France, This American Life on public radio recently re-ran a very interesting episode. You can listen to it via RealAudio at their web site (www.thisamericanlife.org, Episode #165). The first part is David Sedaris' experiences adapting to living in Paris, which have nothing to do with race, but the third segment is an interview with a woman who had lived there full time for a number of years. Her experiences there and her perceptions of them relative to her life in New York speak volumes about American views of race. I found myself (a white woman) simultaneously grateful that she has found happiness and peace for herself, and irked that she so clearly didn't believe she could have it in the US. I would love to hear others' responses to this broadcast (but only if you listen to it first!)

Elise, <BR>I am an African American female who went to Italy in 1998 with one of my friends who is an Italian American female. We both had a great time and are going back with a couple of friends in 2 weeks. I did not feel I was treated differently. <BR>Enjoy yourself and expect a lot of flirting from the men :)

I lived in Rome as a teenager for 3.5 years (earlier '90s). Granted, I'm not of African descent (Asian) but I think my experience is relevant. <BR> <BR>My experience was mostly positive but i can't get rid of the nagging memory of being teased, scoffed at, ridiculed or call it what you will by these small groups of male Italian teenagers who would walk by us cackling in very loud and exaggerated mock-Chinese (and no I'm not Chinese or even Taiwanese). This happened maybe 3 times. Those teenagers should be in their late-20s now - hopefully they've adopted more tolerant attitudes towards unsuspecting foreign visitors who were simply admiring the scenery of their otherwise intriguing country. <BR> <BR>It's obviously impossible to say that "Italians are like this..." - some are racist, some mildly prejudiced, some you find married to foreigners..it's probably like that in every country. Hopefully, you'll meet good more than bad wherever you happen to be.

I dont think Europeans are any more tolerant than Americans. Italians can come over as rude because they have a tendancy to stare but I dont think it's the skin colour they're ogling. <BR> <BR>Elise, this may sound a silly question but what makes you an African-American? <BR> <BR>

Robin, I was thinking of exactly the NPR piece that you mentioned as I was reading this thread. Actually, I really enjoyed it--it's been a year or more since I heard it, but I remember it was very interesting how her experience evolved, especially as her French got better, so that she was mistaken as a native speaker (ie likely to be from West Africa). And I especially enjoyed the part earlier on about how she discovered there might be a downside to not being able to take advantage of the cultural stereotype... I agree w/ Robin; this is well worth listening to (entertaining, as well as enlightening).

Elise, <BR> <BR>Three years ago, four of us travel for 3 weeks in Italy. "Us" is a white couple and a black/white couple. The interracial couple had your same concerns and expressed them to us (we are the white couple). They said they felt no hostility towards them in any of the major cities or the small towns in the country-side, or in any restaurant, museums, or any other place. They said it was like no one noticed them. <BR> <BR>So, I'd say go and have a great time.

Tony Hughes <BR> <BR>African American refers to an American with African ancestory. It is similar to, as one poster stated above, calling oneself Irish American, Italian American, Polish American, etc. Pride in ones heritage does not negate national pride. What a person decides to call themselve is their business.

I saw a picture last night, of my great grandmother coming over from Germany on the boat. I was proud, they came here learned english, owned homes, established themselves. They came here to bring up a family in America, so I may be American. I am an American, not a German-America. I would never insult my country. Blacks worked to hard, slaved to long, and do themselves a discrdit to refer to themselves as African Americans. And how ignorant for anyone to call a black skinned person in America, an African American, that person may be a visitor from France, jamaica, or England. How racist!

ttt

To me the term "African American" means, an African who has immigrated to the US and has become a citizen. Someone who was born in the US and has black skin does not an "African American" make.

Grow Up Jean, noone care what being African American means to you. Do you even live in the U.S.? So sad how so few of you have the means for a college education. This is the real problem in Europe we all have to suffer your ignorance.

Please explain to me how I'm being ignorant. Doesn't the term "African" mean, one coming from Africa? Would someone white coming from Africa still be a "African American"?

My point exactly. <BR> <BR>If my great-grandparents were born in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia), then emigrated to the United States, would that then make their children (white) African Americans?

Gotta have my say too. <BR> <BR>I am american and think that most of the black population in the US now want to call themselves African Amercians, which they are'nt. <BR>If they were born on US soil, they are american. If they hold the citizenship of another country then they are also that too. <BR>However, those born in the US and not holding another citizentship, are only americans. <BR>Those immigrating to the US and obtaining citizenship can then call themselves -----(so&so country)american (ie: italian-american, african american, cuban-american, etc). <BR>Just because I moved to live in lets say Italy for the last 20 years, does not make me an american-italian. <BR>I would have to get italian citizenship and be able to hold two passports to be able to call myself that. <BR>I am only an american.

How you are being ignorant Joan is that you think people an Ocean away should use your definition to define themselves. This is largely what Americans are accussed of when we visit in large numbers. African Americans call themselves this just as Irish Americans, German Americans, call themselves this. They want to draw a link between their past and present. Funny Europeans very often accuse us of not having a sense of history the minute we try to establish this people like yourself emerge to take yet another issue. What kind of ignorance or arrogance is it that leads you to think you can tell an entire population of people how they should define themselves. This is how you are ignorant Joan.

You know what? This forum is really starting to suck.

First of all Kelly, it's Jean, not Joan. Who is ignorant here? What are you talking about? What does your statement that I think people an ocean away should use my definition to define themselves? I am an American of Irish blood, I'm not an Irish-American. I'm American, its that simple. Just because a certain percentage of Americans with black skin have decided that they want to be called African Americans, doesn't make it correct or right. I have friends that are black and think the term is silly. <BR> <BR>Joan is that you think people an Ocean away should use your definition to define themselves. This is largely what Americans are accussed of when we visit in large numbers

I know of people who were born in this country and who are third and fourth gen decendants and they refer to themselves as Irish American and Italian American. No one comments on that. <BR> <BR>I am African American. I celebrate my African heritage. Although African Americans in the US have adopted many western customs, we still have many cultural expressions in common with Africa. It is how I am millions of other African Americans choose to call ourselves. Africans from the African continent have no problem with the reference, so why should anyone else? And by the way, I do know whites from AFrican who do refer to themselves as African. If their decendents choose to refer to themselves as African Americans, that is fine by me. <BR> <BR>It is amazing on a European travel board that many of you pride yourselves on going to Europe, learning a little of the language, and respecting the culture of the countries you visit. If Parisians wanted to be called something, you would oblige, because to do otherwise would be rude and ignorant. <BR> <BR>So if you can respect other cultures and how they choose to identify themselves, offer African Americans the same courtesy.

I watched a show on T.V. recently. There were two old woman, proud, up standing and black. They made sure everyone knew they were not "African Americans" just Americans. They stated they did not like the term, and prefered to be called blacks.They found the term African American insulting.

Why are all of you having such a fit? It's a valid question. Having grown up in snotty Orange County, CA, (Thank heaven I moved out of there!) I definitely know there are places there where whites will question the presence of an African-American. Some of our own U.S. Southerners can be horrible and terrifying. Elise, I didn't see anything like this in Italy - yay! And no, I'm not African-American, I'm Mexican-American, because of my skin coloring am NEVER perceived as such, so I see and hear a lot more than most minorities do from "unsuspecting" bigots.

Karen--Aren't those "unsuspecting bigots" a hoot when you pull the rug out from under them? I've run into my share, too, as I'm white but from a mixed-race family. Oh, the stammering and "no, you misunderstood what I was saying" of it all! <BR> <BR>It seems pretty simple to me. People have, at the very least, a right to decide what they choose to call themselves. And if their choices are a major cause of upset for anyone, I'd suggest that person look about the world a bit more. There are considerably more disturbing things out there, such as poverty, disease, ignorance, and yes, racism, that are more worthy of our outrage.

... that wearing the label _African American_ on a traveler's sleeve and wondering Hey Mister European, what kind of attitude I be expecting from YOU... is not accepted and certainly not appreciated from some people who frequent this forum. <BR> <BR>Jospeh Jenkins Roberts, the first president of Liberia, was an American born (1809) Negro who was never a slave. He left his home country, the United States, in 1843 to relocate to Africa. <BR> <BR>If African American is the preferred term for Elise, what is the correct term for Mr. Roberts, or his descendants? <BR> <BR>American-Liberian? <BR>African-American-Liberian? <BR> <BR>or just Liberian? <BR> <BR>Yes, the terms Irish-American and Italian-American do get used, but in general they are adjectives, describing one aspect of that person's interests and personality. I think there is not so much attitude associated with Elise saying I am a black woman who enjoys African-American culture. And even this assumes that she wants to call attention to her skin color or racial background. Not sure why this is desirable. Kinda like Bald American. Is the label necessary? <BR>

Elise, darling, Methinks the Fodorites doth digress too much....To get back to your original query....As a gay man who has travel throughout Italy, I think bigotry is more likely to happen in small towns rather than in the more sophisticated cities such as Firenze, Roma, or Venezia. You may encounter problems in places like Napoli, where the people are backward. But, I honestly think that if people realize you are an American tourist you will not be bothered. Remember, Italy derives lots of revenue from tourists. Hotels, restaurants, shops, etc. want your dollars. So if people think you will be spending money, you will be accomodated in most places. JohnG

Elise...I don't know if you're still reading this thread. I noticed some people have helpful information here. If you conduct yourself in a sensible way with the people you meet, you should have no problems. There's no way to predict how any individual is going to treat you, so relax and have fun on your trip. Keep up with travel advisories http://travel.state.gov. Know where to get help and how to ask for it in case there are problems. <BR>Ciao signorina

Jean, Not a Joan but you respond to the label ignorant:):)It does not matter that you are an American JEAN you are still an idiot. I could care less what your friends are telling you. You have no right to decide how others should define themselves none of us do in any country is that clear? Now grow up and find another way to seek acceptance from Europeans. I guess that is hard to do when you want to get rid of all this extra anger. You can find other outlets darling.

Elise: <BR> <BR>I am an African-American woman who spent some time in Italy during a study-abroad experience in Vienna. I have to say that most Europeans (Italians and Austrians) were not especially kind or mean to me at all. It was pretty neutral. Go and enjoy yourself. <BR> <BR>As for the NPR special regarding a black woman's experiences in France: the woman's name is Janet McDonald. Read her autobiography, Project Girl, to find out more about her experiences in France and America. I was completely enthralled by the NPR story and her book is now at the top of my list of books to read...soon.

Kelly, <BR> <BR>It is you that seem to have so much anger. I am simply raising a point and I'm trying to do it in a adult manner. Many of my friends that happen to be Black do not refer to themselves as "African American". The term has become politically correct and although many people and the media use this term, not everyone wants to be categorized and refered to in this way. The term itself in referring to someone born in the US with dark skin is incorrect. If a certain segment of American Blacks want to call themselves this, than that is fine. I refer to people however they want to be referred to.

Again who cares about how your friends read this, accept how others choose to define themselves not how you or your friends choose to define others. A very easy difference here your friends & others who have their own definition, your friends & others, your friends & others, your friends & others. Oh but wait your friends are the spokes people for the entire community! Sorry I was forgetting this. Understanding yet how your reasoning is rooted in ignorance?

Kelly: You are a friggin idiot.