A lesson for travellers who think your passport should be in the hotel safe
 

Passports not on their person...

or traveling while black?

..and in the Balkans.

Guys you're totally missing the point.

Sure, you can just rely on your white privilege and think that's never going to happen to you, but what if it happens. It doesn't have to be such an extreme case as with these guys. I would rather not waste my time at a police station until my identity is cleared. If their story is true, they could have easily avoided this ordeal by simply showing their passports.

Carrying a valid travel document is like travel isurance. I have more than 20 years of travelling behind me, 40 countries and I never needed my travel insurance, but I would never leave home without one. And I always take my passport with me.

"Croatia.., not very successful in trying to rewrite its racist/ nazi past."

Tourism arrivals figures show a different picture. For most people in this world Croatia is one of the most beautiful destinations of the world and they don't know and/or don't care about the Nazi history of Croatia.

Exactly what I was about to say. Young & African. The "deported" part is the giveaway. Can you really imagine, BDKR, that you'd have been dumped across a border in the woods in similar circumstances? I think not. I'd have thought more about the issue you tried to raise if you'd come up with a story about white tourists without passports on their person, making a point, if there is one to be made, that it could happen to anyone.

Nazi history of Croatia, no not the 1930s and 40s!

I suspect it was intended to refer to the racist period that surfaced 30 years ago, meant that NATO had to bomb them into behaving and now 2019 gets them regularly punished for racism in football (soccer).

If you don't care you should, and carry your passport.

The photocopy is at least better than nothing. Perhaps showing only a photocopy of their passport and visa could have saved these guys from deportation.

"Can you really imagine, BDKR, that you'd have been dumped across a border in the woods in similar circumstances?"

I can easily imagine that I would need to pay a hefty bribe to Nigerian policemen to avoid a similar fate if I can't show my passport.

"I suspect it was intended to refer to the racist period that surfaced 30 years ago, meant that NATO had to bomb them into behaving"

NATO has to bomb "racist countries" into behaving? Now, I understand what's the purpose of NATO. Cheers!

" I'd have thought more about the issue you tried to raise if you'd come up with a story about white tourists without passports on their person, making a point, if there is one to be made, that it could happen to anyone."

I was stopped by policemen or soldiers a few times in various countries and had to show my documents and answer a few questions. I just read about a Hungarian girl(white and blond) who was stopped by police officers in Germany and she couldn't show any document. The Hungarian embassy had to be involved to solve it. There's no reason to think you'll always and everywhere be untouchable because of your white skin. The law applies to everyone, even if the authorities can be selective in enforcing it.

To sum it up:

1) I think everyone(even Croatians) would agree, what the police officers have done is uneccaptable.

BUT

2) The whole thing could have been easily avoided if the 2 guys could show their passport on the spot.

We have no way of knowing that. The outcome may have been exactly the same.

Other people do care about Croatia's racism and ex-nazism. Life is unpredictable that way.

Goes to show: always have your passport on you, when you're black and traveling Croatia.

I can't decide if you really don't understand that situation or just don't want to understand.

"The whole thing could have been easily avoided if the 2 guys could show their passport on the spot"
"We have no way of knowing that. The outcome may have been exactly the same."

We have indeed no way to KNOW what would have happened if they had managed to identify themselves on the spot, but you have no reason to ASSUME that the outcome would have been exactly the same.

We have no reason to assume that pruducing their documents would not have been enough to persuade the police officers that their status in Croatia is 100% legit.

"Other people do care about Croatia's racism and ex-nazism."

Some do care, but how many?

I bet if we would ask every tourist disembarking from a cruise ship in Dubrovnik whether they know the words Ustasa or Jasenovac 90% of them(no just make it 99%) would just stare at us.

For the first time more than 20 million tourists have visited Croatia in one year, the Ministry of Tourism announced here on Friday.

Croatia sets record with over 20 million tourist arrivals - Xinhua | English.news.cn

"always have your passport on you, when you're black and traveling Croatia"

Isn't it more simple to have your passport on you(or the very least a photocopy) anywhere abroad, whatever your race, religion or nationality?

Passports often don't help much, if you're black. And/or in Eastern Europe or the Balkans. Simples.

That whole: ThEy sHoULd jUsT hAvE cOmPliEd!1!1111!!!!!!

So ill informed.

BDKR.

We understand. We believe your premise is faulty. No amount of objection will change that. Better luck next time.

"Passports often don't help much, if you're black. And/or in Eastern Europe or the Balkans. Simples."

How much time have you spent in "Eastern Europe" or the Balkans that you're so "well informed"?

I live here(in Hungary) and travel quite frequently all around the region, including Croatia.

While there aren't nearly as many blacks here as in the USA(we never had slavery) or in Western Europe(we never had colonies), there are still quite a few blacks here especially in the capitals. There are more and more tourists as well and there are temporary or permanent residents. There are loads of students from African countries since the communist times, many of them married local girls after finishing the university here and settled down. There are all kinds of people among them, some are loved and respected like doctors, tramway drivers, basketball players etc, others are loathed but not for their race, but for their deeds(criminals, drug dealeres, pimps). Policemen don't touch them with a finger as long as their papers are in order. For policemen documents are everything, without documents you're nobody.

We have an Afro-American university professor teaching at the best economics university of Budapest, who said in an interview that he had experienced more racism in his homeland - the USA, than in Hungary where he lived since many years.

?Fekete vagyok: sokkal jobb nekem Magyarországon, mint Amerikában? ? interjú | Globoport

Here is a black girl who travelled around Eastern Europe(including Croatia) and experienced no racism anywhere.

http://theamerikanka.com/black-perso.../#.Xf8utPx7nIU

I'm not saying that racism doesn't exist here, it is just not that common or serious as the mainstream media wants you to believe it.

"We believe your premise is faulty."

What is my premise?

Croatian policemen on patrol in Zagreb noticed 2 unusual and suspicous individuals. (Yes, 2 black men in Zagreb outside the tourist season is unusual and suspicious, whether you like it or not.) They assumed they might be illegal immigrants, since Croatia is struggling with an influx of illegal immigrants from Bosnia(although most of them are not blacks, but people from the Middle East and South Asia) so they stopped them and asked for their documents(that's what policemen usually do from the USA to Papua New Guinea). At this point if they could show their passports with their Croatian visa they could have easily proved on the spot that they're not illegal immigrants. If a Croatian embassy has given a visa to someone, police officers have no business to question that. Since they didn't have any documents they were assummed to be illegal immigrants from Bosnia and we know the rest. That's not how it should have happened. They should have taken these guys to their hostel(a short drive since Zagreb is not a large city) where they could show their passports. In short: It was the policemens fault, what happened is indeed scandalous and I can't imagine that would be the norm in Croatia, these were simply 2 idiot and yes perhaps even racist(They're black, so they must be lying) policemen. But the moral of the story is that all this could have been easily avoided if they had their passport with them and not in the hostel. Perhaps even a photocopy could have been enough to persuade the policemen to go back to the hostel with them and see their passports.

So what is that you don't understand or don't agree with?

1. more time than you think
2. that explains a lot
3. everything

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-...ungarian-hell/

I wonder if BDKR & Myer are the same person.

Here is a black girl who travelled around Eastern Europe(including Croatia) and experienced no racism anywhere.

http://theamerikanka.com/black-perso.../#.Xf8utPx7nIU

One anecdote deserves another, or more.
My daughter (white) traveled with a Black female friend. That was in 1997, and they went to Budapest, Prague and Berlin. They did not like Budapest because of the racism they experienced. Of the three, Berlin was their favorite city. But my cousin who is Berlin born and bred warned them not to travel 20 km. outside the city.

In 2005 we were staying in Gura Humorului while visiting Bucovina. Our car had Hungarian plates. Driving in Suceava we were stopped by the police for some type of minor violation. I showed my American passport and they just let us drive on with a warning. Would the same thing have occurred with a Hungarian passport?

Different times, different mores:
In 1975 we were driving a Honda Civic with Danish plates in Eastern Europe. In Prague I changed lanes at an intersection and upon seeing my driver's license and passport the policemen who stopped us made it clear that he wanted cash. A ten dollar bill resolved the situation.

"I’ve been the only American tourist in Eastern Germany villages, and off the beaten path Japanese towns, and never have I thought they'd deport me because it’s “suspicious” I’m visiting off season."

A white American tourist in Germany is not suspicious since they can't be easily distinguished from locals, until they open their mouth. A gaijin in a small Japanese town is suspicious, but Japanese are pretty relaxed about foreigners since the only way to get in to the country is by flight or ship and who can get in is under strict control. That said I can easily imagine that the local policeman noticed you and sized you up without you noticing them. They put you in the no threat category(harmless tourist).

"but the “black men were stopped because black people are suspicious off season” is pretty much the classic definition of racism and such a justification is appalling."

No that's not racism. They were suspicious because blacks in Zagreb outside the tourist season are only a slightly more common sight than Tibetan monks in Alaska. Police officers are trained to look out for anything or anyone out of the ordinary, that's how they work. They might stop for example a scruffy backpacker loitering outside a 5 star hotel, because he is suspicous there and than. They don't care about a scruffy backapcker at the railway station because that fits in the normal picture. Plus, there could have been some extra circumstances making these Nigerian guys suspicious which were not reported or known only to these policemen. Being in a part of the town where tourists normally don't go?

But honestly, why they're stopped is pretty irrelevant in this story. It's up to the discretion of policemen who they stop and check. That is their job. Getting stopped by policeman may be annoying or even scary, but they're just doing their job to make you be safe.

"Who cares if you had neither slavery nor colonialism when that BS is happening in 21st century Croatia."

It looks like this BS could easily happen(or perhaps already happened several times) in the USA as well, the difference is that the policemen in Croatia were apparently breaking the law and most certainly common sense, but in the USA it is the law, to immediately deport foreigners without a document. I think we should extend the advice: Black travellers should always carry their passport in Croatia to Latino travellers in the USA. Look, that's why I suggested FFS that simply everyone should keep their passport with them all the time anywhere.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49079495

@ Michael

"My daughter (white) traveled with a Black female friend. That was in 1997, and they went to Budapest, Prague and Berlin. They did not like Budapest because of the racism they experienced."

Do you know what happened to the Black friend of your daughter in Budapest?

As I said, I never denied that racism exists in Hungary or Croatia, but I can't believe it is more prevalent than anywhere else. As you can read in the articles I linked you could spend years in this region as Black expat and not experience any racism or as in the case of your daughter friend you can have bad luck and run into 1-2 racist idiots on a long weekend stay.

A few months ago a Nigerian DJ coming to perform with Will Smith was spat on by an old witch(I think lady is not fitting in this case) in the middle of Budapest, just like that. I guess and I hope he never experienced something like that in his life, so if he'd be the kind of person to make generalisations he would have every reason to say that Budapest is the most racist city in the world(which is of course couldn't be further from the truth).

"the refugees from different countries often reach Bosnia in hope to enter Croatia and
the West. ( EU)The harsh measures to stop them are implemented
in Croatia , Hungary and probably other other places. That might have been the reason for the deportation. Who knows."

Exactly, that was not a question. They were kicked out to Bosnia because the police officers thought that's where they entered Croatia, as most illegal immigrants do. They were not given the chance to prove their innocence.(I mean they're given only 1 chance: Show your passports now, or you'll be deported). I write kicked out, because deportation is a legal procedure, it's not taking someone to the border(not the border crossing!) and told to get lost or we'll shoot you.

It's exactly what would have happened in France. It's curious how the French government doesn't get the same media attention for doing far worse. Lets not forget the French government has kicked out pregnant women that have died on the forced march into Italy.

The BBC had it's own article on the event. They mentioned a couple of things. It's not unusual for people to over stay valid visas. The two who had allegedly been forced out had already checked out of their hotel.