A heartfelt question regarding moving to Europe
 

(note: I accidentally posted this in the United States Forum. Sorry)

Upon my planning for a long term sabbatical, I have decided to turn our travels into a move. I am talking to an immigration lawyer in the Netherlands regarding a resident permit and opening a business. I know about the rules for doing this, so that is not where my question is.

The problem I face is that my long-term live-in boyfriend (who has not travelled much, only once in London while in high school) is frightened with my revelation. He wants to do the sabbatical and I want to do the move. He says it's not economical especially since I would have to do a preliminary trip to the Netherlands to meet the lawyer, fill out paperwork and visit my proposed city.

I feel that even if this is a difficult process to endure, I believe that it would be exciting to try even if, in the end, I fail.

Upon writing, I am not sure what my question to you would be. I know he would go, but I don't want to put undue stress on him in a foreign country.

I have visited lots of different countries, lived in France and Australia and can speak French. I want to have this moving experience, but I am hesitant to act because I love and respect his fear of the unknown.

Does anywone have a similar experience or ideas?

You might want check out expatica.com. This website has a forum about moving to the Netherlands. Many of the people are quite negative about the whole experience but people do give advice about every aspect of the move.

Jennifer

Thank you for the comment. I have read lots of information about the Netherlands, I have visited for extended perios, and I have read parts of the Expatica site.

My query isn't with the Netherlands as much as a personal journey and life change with my boyfriend whom is worried and scared about moving to a foreign country.

honestly it sounds like your choice may be your move or your boyfriend (i mean this kindly not in a mean spirited way).

Nothing that is meant to me is complicated. Maybe the simple truth is that...he is not that into you.

...meant to BE, that is...

Your question almost sounds like "should I keep my boyfriend or do what I want to do?"

Is that the question?

I'm concerned that you said,

*I* have decided to turn *our* travels into a move.

It is not clear if he is interested in the move and just nervous or really is not sure that a move is for him...it is a lot to ask or expect of someone who is not aligned with the idea.

I think you need to talk to him and also decide what your first priority is...him or the move. You may wind up with both, but if you are determined to move, you may have to accept that he is not.

Good luck!

I would be scared to death if I were your partner too. Never did much travelling, and finally when there's time to do it, she wants to move there. That's not travelling...that WORK and a new life.

Have you considered doing a short trip to the area you would like to move to and then let him make the final decision? Seeing the destination will help him decide if he has the confidence and motivation for such a move.

If he still says yes just for your sake, I don't think you'll have a happy future with him in the Netherlands.

You may certainly have to choose between your boyfriend and your dream job. Don't think anyone can help you there but your heart.

I have some experience, but in reverse, only that was across country in the US, not to a foreign country.

To be honest, I have finding what you want to do very unusual myself given your situation. I am on your boyfriend's side. You haven't given enough information about him and you that anyone can answer very well or even advise. Like what does he do for a living, what about his education, how likely is it that he can get work, how will that affect his career, what kind of family ties does he have, how long have you been together, do you own property together or have children together, etc?

It sounds like you haven't really considered these issues and are just portraying this as him being some timid insecure, unsophisticated person, not to sound harsh. Maybe you have, but it doesn't sound like it. It also sounds like you haven't been together very long. Because otherwise, I find it rather astounding that you haven't traveled together to Europe at some time.

If you have been together a long time, are very committed and you've tried to get him to travel to Europe with you many times but he refuses or is just not interested, etc., then I don't think you are very well-suited to each other.

By the way, I think you should do what he proposes; give the year sabatical in The Netherlands a try first. I don't see the urge to make such a milestone desicion now.

Thank you for all of your responses and the time it took to write them.

Your comments are very helpful. Thank you.

I too would probably try the sabbatical first...but I am more cautious than some people. The way I see it, a sabbatical would still give you that taste of life in the Netherlands, but wouldn't commit you to it and would also be an easier thing for your partner. I think if I were in your partner's shoes I would be nervous too...

Why don't you both go for the sabbatical and see how you feel after you've been there for a while? If he absolutely hates it, you will have to make a decision. If you both hate it, you come back. If you both love it, you start the immigration process.

This would take longer but it would be more fair to both of you.

I'm just wondering how your boyfriend would be able to move with you even if you persuaded him to go. Is he going to invest in the business with you? Does he have an EU passport? You're not married, so he can't come along as a "trailing" spouse. He'd need reason (and funding) of his own to be there.

Synada,

On the positive side, I lived in Amsterdam for almost a year a number of years ago, and found the Dutch to be the most friendly, outgoing and helpful people I have met anywhere in the world. Things were tough back then in the Netherlands, high unemployment, immigrant problems, welfare state & the resultant high taxation,etc., but people talked to you, invited you to their homes and really lived up to the Dutch reptuation for openness and hospitality.

That said, my Dutch friends say that starting a business and making it thrive in Holland today is a VERY tough row to hoe. What sort of business do you plan?

About your stick-in-the-mud boyfriend, I have a feeling that dragging him along, with his death wish for the venture, will kill things. If you stay here at his insistance, I'll bet it will die anyway.

Whatever you decide, have a great life.

:-)

Poor boyfriend. Because he doesn't want to move to the Netherlands (which would not be anywhere high on my list of places to live for sure) he's variously described in this thread as "frightened," "fear of the unknown," "worried and scared," "stick-in-the-mud." Maybe he is just a weak, nervous, ignorant, untravelled coward--but it that's so, why do you stay with him anyway?

Or maybe he just likes where you live now. What's wrong with that?

By the way, more native Dutch citizens are now emigrating from the Netherlands than foreigners are immigrating--most to English speaking countries. Many people in the Netherlands are not happy with some of the results of multi-culturalism and the difficulties being encountered by the Dutch economy (which doesn't bode well for starting a new business).

Finally, check to be sure that your immigration lawyer isn't just ripping you off. Immigration into the Netherlands isn't as easy as to places like the USA and Canada--especially if you don't have a job offer from an existing company there.

I think you need to speak to your boyfriend in private instead of asking advice in a forum.

If you are going to make this move with him, you have to consider that he will have to deal with getting his own work permit, which can be a long, drawn out process. Also, I agree with the comments about trying the sabbatical first, then you can decide if you want to move permanently across the pond. You might not even want to stay in Holland after a year. Dealing with the paperwork can be frustrating and time consuming. As francophile said, you two need to have a serious talk about this.

Go back up the thread and re-read BTilke's comment. That is the most important issue. All this advising synada one way or the other is basically moot. The BF probably can't do either the sabbatical OR the move. Not legally anyway

Well, I like Europe a lot and think the idea of living there for awhile would be a good experience. For me.

But when I read your post, I couldn't really tell what you were asking either. If we felt that you should go ahead or not - or if we felt HE should. Not going to get into the whole "if he really felt... then he would ..." thing because that cuts both ways.

But just putting myself in each pair of shoes for a minute (sorry if they stretch). I can see where he would have some really serious misgivings about this idea and how he's getting it presented to him. I don't know - he's never even been in a non-English speaking country. His only trip out was as a teenager (not the most observant of life periods). Now he's being asked if he'd like to pick up and move to a place he's never been, a culture he may know nothing about. Different language; foods; culture; laws; sports; politics; interpersonal relationship styles; perceptions of how he'll be accepted; what it's like to be out of reach of family and all things familiar. Not sure I could do that before at least a couple of advanced scouting visits and I *like* European travel. No way I'd do it sight unseen.

On the other hand, er, foot, to stick with the shoe metaphor. If he's really resistant and you know it's a dream you aren't ready to give up for someone else, then you have a decision to make. Kind of like any couple who don't agree about a major life direction like marriage or kids. If you can't see eye-to-eye, then you're going to have to make a decision and maybe this isn't the right person if your goals are so different. This can't be a compromise issue, can it? No one but you can say, but the half-way point is pretty wet. If I wanted both bad enough, I'd start looking for a way to gently introduce the idea and not have the details laid out in such a way that it looked like a done deal.

You say you know the rules for moving to The Netherlands, so you probably do, but just to warn you; the Dutch have become very difficult about anyone moving to the country. Dutch people, with Dutch passports, even have great difficulty getting a residents permit for their foreign spouses. I just read an article about Dutch expatriates who married while living abroad, who could not move back to The Netherlands because the wife could not get a resident permit.

But if you do succeed; it's a great country to live in. If you persuade your boyfriend to join you for a sabbatical, he can make up his own mind then.

That's interesting Tulips. I also remember reading a while back that the Dutch would refuse work permits to anyone over age 45, even if they had unique qualifications for a long-unfilled position. I wonder if that's still true or whether age discrimination laws have ended that rule.

You won'r even know if you want to move there forever until you give it a year. I moved to ireoland 11 years ago and the first year I said I would give myself a 1 year contract to go away and see how I feel at the end of the year. I did this a few years and then decided to stay so I felt I could go home asd it was temporary. No one can decide in a month just take a year and see how it goes. After a year maybe you want to move elsewhere, stay or go home. What would he gain from this trip> Ask him what he would like to get frpom this experience.

Bottom line - a long sabbatical (e.g. 9 months or more) or a permanent move is going to be very stressful for each of you and your relationship. I've made moves like this several times: a) moved to New York for a job (and broke up with long-distance boyfriend within a month); b) moved to London with boyfriend where we both were keen to pursue a one-year sabbatical and each had jobs (broke up within two months - relationship was a bit rocky and we moved in together for the first time when we arrived in London); and c) moved to Paris with new husband this past summer (so far, so good). In cases (b) and (c), my partner and I both loved travelling, and both had worked and lived in other countries before. Bloody hard anyway.

In the current situation, my incredibly understanding husband gave up a job he liked to move to a country where he doesn't speak the language well and likely will have to secure a job in a mixed English/French environment. While he's a highly evolved male and reasonably happy right now putting our house in order, doing the grocery shopping, cooking, taking French lessons, pursuing personal interests (writing, marathons) and polishing his cv, he's still nevertheless concerned about his career. We've made a financial sacrifice to pursue the opportunity to live abroad. Right now, it seems worth it - but ask us in two years. We will reconsider the decision, depending on how his opportunities shape up. We don't think of this as a permanent thing, but we're not ruling out a permanent move either. We'll re-evaluate periodically.

Honestly, what I think you should do is work with your boyfriend to develop a range of scenarios. For example, my husband and I considered three basic options: (a) a mini, unpaid sabbatical of 3-6 months, possibly in a developing country, where we would volunteer and pursue some personal interests (e.g. languages, scuba, writing); (b) a somewhat longer sabbatical (e.g. 9-18 months) where we would find some kind of employment that covered our costs and offered some career-enhancing opportunities for both of us; and (c) a move of indefinite length (18 months plus) to a country where at least one of us would have a lucrative, career-enhancing opportunity and the other would be able to pursue job opportunities and function at a basic level in the country's language and both of us could expect to feel reasonably confident and comfortable. Opportunity (c) came up first, and we jumped at it. But both of our prior life experiences prepared us for it.

If you and your boyfriend take the time to fully explore the range of options and your respective feelings and concerns about them, you're more likely to reach a consensus and to be comfortable with the decision.

BTilke hit it on the head: too many legal unknowns.

That said, since when does finding and keeping a productive job in one's own country - a large one, culturally diverse, and with many major economic reversals in some areas - so dull, easy, a foregone conclusion, and a sign of the timid and the meek?

Consider that having to possibly fail at home is a lot harder than failing abroad, where one has a built-in excuse.

I understand your Problem, you should speak to your boy-friend first. He might feel that you are talking him on a ride to marriage and intrapment since you have him where you want him and have your plans too.

I am also emailing to find out how I too can make a move to the United Kindom to live out there making a move too. Who do I get in contact with in the U.K. and how? It is a beautiful country and visited some many times that I have fallen in love with the country. I need to make that move... Can you advise me how?
Thanx!
J. Bermudez

Why the Netherlands? Do you have any specific interest with the Dutch culture? language? This strict, flat, grey, cold and wet Calvinist country, currently engulfed into some painful soul searching, does not fit the cliché of the easy going European country. And I am not mentioning the food...

I suggest you show the person you are talking about the respect he deserves and discuss the "issues" which IMO are still very unclear with him, in private.

I think you should heed BTilke's advice and, frankly, ignore the not surprising assertions and assumptions about how a move will automatically "stress" someone, the whole "entrapment" assumption, as well as the absurd IMO description of the Netherlands above.

Gee, Art..your description reminds me, amazingly, like a lot of places in the United Sates.

Intrepid1: Have you ever uprooted your life and moved to another country? It's not unreasonable to assert or assume that such an experience will be stressful. It doesn't necessarily follow (and I didn't intend to imply) that the stress reaction will be negative. Stress reactions are a natural part of adapting to change or new stimuli. In my personal experience (which is what Synada asked for), relocating to foreign countries has been stressful and has involved negative and positive stress reactions, positive ones on balance but it depends on the person and the situation. I think it's important to assume that the experience will be stressful but to prepare yourself so that: (a) you can mitigate negative stress reactions; and (b) encourage positive stress reactions, to help you adapt to the challenges the new environment presents. Where members of a couple are likely to have varying reactions to the change, it's important for both of them to be prepared to deal with the other's differing responses to the same conditions or experiences and find a way to help each other and take strength from each other.