15-day Europe trip. Is this CRAZY? HELP!
 

We are planning a trip to Europe, arriving July 19 in Geneva and returning to the US on August 3 (from Geneva).
We are traveling with our teenage son, who would love to see as much as possible. We prepared an itinerary to visit Switzerland, Italy, France and Croatia by car. We rented a car at the Geneva airport.

Does this itinerary sound crazy? Is it too much driving? We calculated approximately 30 hrs of driving, but probably adding 20-25% more would be more realistic (includes getting from one place to another and a few hrs in Croatia between towns).

July 19: Arrive in Geneva 8am - rent car, drive to Como, Italy (4.5 hr drive)
July 20-21: Lake Como
July 22: Drive to Verona (2.5 hr drive)
July 23: Drive to Venice (1.5 hr drive)
July 24: Venice
July 25: Drive to Croatia (Istrian peninsula, Rovinj, Pula area) (3 hr drive)
July 26-27: Croatia - Istrian peninsula, Rovinj, Pula area
July 28: Drive to Trieste (2 hr drive)
July 29: Drive to Padua (2 hr drive)
July 30: Drive to Milan (2.5 hr drive)
July 31: Drive to Chamonix (3.5 hr drive)
Aug 1: Drive to Geneva (1.5 hr drive)
Aug 2: Geneva
Aug 3: Flight home

One-way car rental would cost much more, so we opted for picking up and returning the car to Geneva airport.
Does this itinerary look doable or are we totally crazy?

Welcome to Fodors.

Now for the bad news. "Does this itinerary look doable or are we totally crazy?" Usually when someone asks if a plan is crazy - it generally is. But this one is crazier than most :( Do you mean THIS July 19 -- like 13 days from now?? if so you have a lot of re-thinking to do.

Just a few of the many problems:

• You want to drive 4.5+ hours after an overnight transatlantic - seriously bad idea.

• You say your son wants to see as much as possible -- unfortunately this itinerary guarantees you'll see less than if you slowed down just a bit and actually visited fewer places.

• A one night stay nets half or less a day for seeing doing, while a 2 night stay gives one full day.

• You are trying to squeeze a 4 week trip into 14 days (not counting arrival and departure days)

• What are you planning to do with the car in most of those cities? Especially in Italy private cars are not allowed in much of the city centers -- and very few accommodations provide parking.

Sorry to say, yes, you are crazy! First off, it is dangerous to do a long drive fresh off of a transatlantic flight. Even if you feel OK, you can have microsleeps that you don't even realize you're having. This can cause accidents.
Then, you're going to spend most of your time in the car. All those cases of driving and only having one night in the new city means 1/2 day, or usually less, in that city. A lot of driving with little time to see anything.
Strongly suggest you cut down on moving around. Look at your destinations and figure out which ones are most important. Stay more than one night in places that most interest you. Your son has plenty of time for more trips in the future!

Janis and I were posting at the same time!😁

. . . with equally brilliant advice ;)

Janis: 😀

You don't see and experience more just because you go to more places. You miss out on things close by plus you waste half a day in transit each time you move around.

You couldn't pay me to go that trip.

Great advice above from all

To try and cut it up a bit
The hours travel works fine in Google world, not in a world where there are too many cars, the motorways have road works and queues and, In Italy, the dread ZTL where parking in some city centres is not allowed by visiting cars.
Then, of course, you have decided to go on holiday at a time when most of northern Europe has also decided to go on holiday

To try and help, Pula has a Roman Theatre... end of, nice enough place but for this crazy trip not worth the pain.
Rovinj is a little nicer but you will have driven past goodness knows how many nicer places in this drive across the top of Italy to get here
Trieste, is, well to put it nicely apart from James Joyce, of little interest, and for James Joyce try visiting Dublin

If you start by cutting out these three the plan begins to be a bit more sensible

Now, the real challenge is why have you decided to hire a car as most of the places you want to visit are easier to see by train (oh but I'm used to driving!) yep, I understand, but since your plan is all about visiting cities a train makes more sense. If your plan was all about visiting the countryside or villages a car would be more sensible.

Alternatively, rather than just drive and drive why not choose a bunch of fascinating places close together and just visit them. Like Bergamo, Verona, Podova, Venice, Mandova, etc etc and some of the smaller walled cities next to them like Soave basically all across the Po valley and beyond and either use a train or a car. If you are visiting towns by car like this you could book into an agriturismo.it in the countryside (booking half board) gives you access to a pool normally (it will be hot) and somewhere to chill after a tough day.

My only comment on Italian motorways (and these are IMO, not others) are that they are fast, they do curve pretty tightly and off ramps come-up pretty fast so you need to keep your eyes wide open, other than that and some generally very good driving from all the Europeans driving with you when they stop they stop.

alternatively starting in Geneva offers you the chance to visit some great places in France, but again this is getting into ultra-high season where I would recommend hunkering down in some centre of lovely day visits. As a suggestion and noting your interest in Chamonix you might like the Jura Alps to the north of Geneva which (while less mountainous) have great off road cycling, hiking, little towns with the odd fortress leading all the way up to Bescancon, real hidden gems

Hello travelnut7345
This itinerary sounds very good and is certainly doable. What has to be taken into account is that it will probably be very hot in the cities of Italy and Croatia and that the Italians will be on holiday from the end of July and that a lot of traffic can be expected then.

Have a great trip!
Martin

Too much for my travel style. One night stops are never pleasant; too rushed.

Too much time in the car. Trying to cover too much terrain in too short a time.

Traffic can be pretty horrific in July - just about everywhere. And I couldn't agree more with the comment above about the Italian Motorways. Some white knuckle areas along the coastline and the Italians know the roads like the back of their hand, so they fly !

Considering how soon this is, have you booked any accommodations?

If it is your travel style fine do it, apart from day 1 arriving and driving. Do not do that please, for your safety and that of other road users.
You will see a lot, but it will be through a car window. Your passengers will see more than you if you are the driver.
I would also suggest you drop Croatia. A lot of driving for not a lot of time in a very popular area.
It is peak holiday time for Europe and everywhere will be busy, and if you haven't yet booked accommodation you need to do so.
Bear in mind the ZTLs in Italy (Google them) and also that around Chamonix they can impose an ULEZ if the air quality is poor and without a Critair sticker you will be stuck, unable to drive or leave the area until the ULEZ is lifted. You cannot get that sticker for a rental car.

Or you could do as Bilbo suggests and plan on taking trains, so everyone can enjoy the scenery and all of you arrive relaxed at your next city without fretting about parking and motorway driving and different driving styles (and laws) to those you are used to.

I agree with most of the advice above. I especially urge you not to try a long drive after an overnight flight. I also agree that for much of your trip trains (or boats) would be faster and more comfortable. You do have to be careful about packing light if you'll be using public transportation. One small to medium rolling suitcase and a small backpack should be sufficient.

I also wonder why you would fly in and out of Geneva, when you don't seem to want to spend any time there or in the vicinity. For most of what you want to see, it would be better to fly in and out of Milan. From Milan, you can easily get to Lake Como by train.

Verona and Venice are then easily reached by train from Milan. In fact, you might want to consider Lake Garda instead of Lake Como, because it's convenient to both Milan and Verona. I think it would have more appeal to a teenager anyway. The train stops in two towns at the southern end of Lake Garda, Peschiera del Garda, but the most scenic part is in the north. You can reach one of the northern towns by bus and train, or you can stay at the southern end and take a tour of the whole lake one day. One of the nicest amusement parks I've ever visited, Gardaland, is at the southern end. You son might enjoy a day there.

I wonder if you included Verona merely to break up a long drive. If so, you could skip it and go on to Venice by train.

There are fast boats from Venice to Pula. Since you want to spend several days in Croatia, it might make sense to rent a car while you're there, depending on what you want to see. Otherwise, boats are a very pleasant way to travel along the coast.

You can reach Trieste by boat from Pula. I rather like Trieste myself, so I don't see any reason to skip it, since it's not out of the way.

Then you can reach Padova and Milan by fast train.

I would skip Chamonix. It's tedious to get to, and you don't have time to do anything there. You could take a day tour to a Dolomite mountain destination from Venice or Lake Garda, or you could rent a car for one day to take an overnight driving tour from either of those places. There is also a nice, but not spectacularly high, mountain right on Lake Garda, Mount Baldo, above the pretty (and touristy) lake town of Malcesine. It's considered a a pre-alpine mountain.

The fast trains in Italy almost always get you from one city to another in less time than driving would, and are often cheaper as well. When you consider the traffic and parking, it's a much more pleasant way of traveling.

Rather than see a bit of Europe thru a car window for 14 consecutive days, why not INSTEAD sit in front of a computer and watch videos of the same sights for 8 hours?

If you Google "lake como videos", and click the "videos" button, for example, you get 28,000,000 hits.

You'd see the same stuff, save a lot of money, and be less tired.

MUCH of the enjoyment of a European trip is EXPERIENCING Europe (eating, talking, hearing, even feeling), not simply observing it.
Looking thru a car window at a Venetian canal is a far cry from being ON the canal, with your peripheral vison picking up the context and surroundings of the canal, and hearing the gondolas, and the gondoliers, and smelling the water and atmosphere.

Looking out the car window from the South Rim Road at Grand Canyon (while going 25 mph) doesn't come close to getting out of the car, standing on the edge of the sidewalk, and taking it ALL in.

One of the wonderful aspects of Italy is the great institution, the Italian Family. Staying for one night in a hotel will limit your access to meeting this, but staying in one centre with outward travel, especially something like a B&B or an agriturismo will let you get a hint of the energy and noise of the system. They may not always speak your language but, with a little effort, you will find the experience life enhancing.

I agree with many if the others above. Unless you really like looking at roadways and traffic, I would cut back on this trip. Do not try a 4.5 hour drive on the day you arrive. Since you are flying into Geneva, I'm assuming you have some desire to visit Geneva. Stay there at least a night and see some of Geneva.

Are you actually going this July? Do you have your hotel reservations set?

Why did you pick the places you have listed? Which are your top 5 star places? I would focus on those and cut any place that is not a top priority. Which search engine did you use to calculate your driving times? I find Google significantly underestimates drive times in Europe.

I do not want to pile on, but what are your actual sightseeing goals? A lot of posts above have asked if you have booked your lodging. But how about actual sights?

Places like Venice and Milan really almost require you to book landmarks in advance. Failure to do so, means standing in long lines. Which means you drove all that way, to stand in line. If you want to see the Last Supper, you ​​​have to have a reservation - you just can't show up and buy a ticket. And while sights like St. Marks and Doges Palace in Venice allow for "walk ins" without reservation, but you will be standing in monster lines in the heat. Potentially the same for the Duomo in Milan, too. I'm not sure if advanced booking is recommended for it or not (I did, so I could tour the rooftop).

Rovinj and Pula are my two of my most favorite towns. They will be crowded. Absolutely expect parking to be impossible on both cities. Done both - and having a car is a hindrance, same with much of Italy as others have pointed out.

I really do not want to be insulting, but your itinerary would not be a very relaxing vacation. Even utilizing trains (and catamarans in Istria) would NOT make this better. But, it's your trip.

First, if you could somehow change your round trip flight from Geneva to Milan, that might be better. Much less crazy.
But if you cannot (and safe to assume you cannot, this close to leaving…)

Ditch the car rental. Take a train from Geneva to Milan, then to Lake Como, then to Verona and Venice, and the rest of Italy. Most of Italy is easy and convenient to access by train, and probably much cheaper than renting a car, even for a family. Not to mention, staying in city centers near train stations is much better without a car. Trying to drive through very old city centers is problematic for tourists. Just don’t do it. Ditch the driving altogether.

You have 2 weeks so that is enough time to see 3-4 places in Italy by train, stay in each for at least 2-3 nights, then train back to Geneva and see it for a couple days before leaving Europe.
Personally, I’d change your itinerary to stay in Italy the whole time, before heading back to Geneva. By train. Again, ditch the car rental. No need for this headache.

Also, arrange the itinerary to stay in each place at least 3 nights. That would be ideal. So, cut out some places. Trust me, you’ll enjoy the trip more.

Research Italian train maps and schedules. You can even reserve tickets from the States ahead of time.

Until The OP returns to give us some sort of feedback/response we're all sort of in the dark. We have no idea what they have booked (except probably a rental car) or if they are open to what we've already said.

I agree with all of the above posters. This trip as described is pretty crazy. If I had planned to fly into Geneva, I would likely tour in Switzerland and/or northern Italy and not go on to Slovenia or Croatia.

Thank you everyone for the very insightful and honest advice! We really appreciate it!

We took to heart what everyone said and here's what we are planning to do:
- Unfortunately, it's not possible to change our flight now without paying extra. The airfare was over 5K already, so we are just keeping it as is.
- We ditched the car and we'll travel by train from Geneva to Italy, visiting Lake Como (3 days, July 19-22), and Venice (3 days, July 22-25). Each of us will have a medium sized suitcase and a carry-on.
- We'll take a ferry from Venice to Croatia and we'll rent a car there, as we already booked a holiday home that has parking (3 days, July 25-28). We'll take day trips in Croatia (just the Istrian peninsula).
- We'll take the ferry back to Venice and we'll check out the Lake Garda area and stay there for the next days (July 29-July 31). This lag of the trip is not crystal clear yet, but we love driving, so maybe we'll rent a car in Venice and just drive there...not sure...or, we can take the train from Venice and rent a car at the lake just for the 3 days, so we are more mobile around the Lake Garda area...
Take the train back to Geneva (Aug 1), stay there Aug 1-Aug 2, and take time to check out the Large Hadron Collider CERN (France).
Travel back to the US on Aug 3.

So, bottom line we reduced the number of places we'll stay at so we can enjoy the sights (already booked a few) and we'll drive in Croatia and maybe from Venice to the Lake Garda areas and then from there to Milan to catch the train back to Geneva. It will be a very new experience for us, as we always drive around everywhere we go. Last year we drove in Turkey for 2 weeks, which was amazing...yes, we stretched ourselves, but we toured many amazing historical sites, drove from Istanbul down to Marmaris and took the ferry to Rhodes and stayed there for a couple of days, too. The difference is that it was in one country and we flew from Antalya back to Istanbul. A year before we went on a Germany-Austria-Hungary road trip fro 2 weeks, which was also amazing. BUT: we never drove in Italy/Switzerland/Croatia before. AND we never did a "train vacation".

This is where we are at the moment...we are in the process of finalizing accommodations and we'll see if we can get a private tour guide to do a day tour in Venice for us.

This sounds much more manageable and enjoyable! And while it’s a bit more rushed than my own preferred travel style, it does leave ample time for both sightseeing and relaxing…
I think you all will enjoy riding the Italian trains. Very comfortable and efficient way of getting around, and with views…
I hope your trip goes smoothly and you all return with happy memories of Italy and Croatia.

I'd drop Croatia. Too much time/trouble to get there for just 3 days. You could definitely use more time in Venice.

The town of Como is convenient if traveling by train, but it's the least interesting, least scenic town on the lake IMO. Staying in Como means spending more time riding ferries and buses. You should study the ferry and bus timetables and organize your sightseeing to maximum your brief time there.

Rather than time on Lake Garda (you will have already experienced Lake Como), I would take the train from Venice to Bolzano (3 nights). Visit the Ice Man exhibits at the archeology museum in Bolzano, take the cable car from Bolzano to the high plateau above the town, maybe make a day trip by bus to Ortisei. From Ortisei, you can take another cable car ride up into the mountains and see a (tiny) bit of the Dolomites.

I'd agree with you but it seems they have already booked a vacation rental there and its probably too late to cancel . . .

+1 to what many people said. You don't need a car in Italy unless you are looking to spend a bunch of time in Tuscany driving around. Trains are easily accessible, quick and pleasant.

Have you considered going to Florence from Geneva, if you have not been there? Cinque Terre is a nice side trip from there too. You may be able do that on the way to Croatia and visit a lake on the way back.

I assume that you have a good reason to go to Croatia and that you are good sailors since you have decided to take the ferry. I know people who have done that crossing and without exception they all had a rough, somewhat unpleasant crossing, so remember to take some sea sickness pills. I did the longer crossing between Ancona and Split overnight in July many years ago and nearly everyone was sick. I think I was one of 4 people eating in the restaurant.

If you have not already booked catamaran tickets, consider taking goopti instead. It is a shuttle, shared or private, that can take you from Piazzale Roma in Venice to close to wherever you are picking your car up. I’ve never heard about too many people getting seasick on the catamaran, but if the weather is bad they will put you on a bus. Taking a shuttle will allow you to go on your schedule, and not arrive in Istria at night or have to leave Istria super early. Going back, you can book goopti to an Italian airport or to Trieste train station to pick up the car.

https://www.goopti.com/en/

Yep. Fairly typical "is this crazy" inquiry posted less than 2 weeks before departing... I'm not sure our comments are worth much. Flights can't (or won't) be changed, lodging is likely booked, can't be changed or alternatives are no longer available. Ergo, the plan is the plan. At least the idea of driving after landing was abandoned.

Is this a joke?

I gu

I guess you didn't see the post where they had pared down the itinerary.

Hi, that sounds like a much better plan! I would add more days to Croatia instead of the Lake Garda area as there is so much to see in Croatia, but the itinerary works as is too. Just don't know anything how the ferry crossing would be!

Wow, sage advice from well know travelers on Fodors. My two cents is learn to live with a carryon and backpack for 2 weeks. Watch packing videos on managing folding or rolling. You ae going in and out many trains, rental car...Try it for one trip and you will be convinced. Have a great trip.

Similar route to the one we did on our honeymoon, except start and end in Frankfurt, and Croatia was Yugoslavia.
Did it in five weeks.

Your latest itinerary looks fine. I would just add that before you decide to drive in Italy you may want to check out the Zona Traffico Limitato for where you want to visit. There are ZTLs around Lake Garda, Verona and most historic town/city centre that restrict driving through "pedestrian" zones of many of the lakeside villages. You will see vehicles belonging to residents driving through as they have permits, other vehicles have to park or take an alternative route. If you enter a ZTL restricted area, you will be fined. Each ZTL has its own time restrictions, usually lifted overnight.

You can explore Lake Garda by ferry and bus. Road traffic can be heavy around the lake.

The OP is more than halfway through their trip, so I doubt they're looking here for more suggestions/ideas. But reminders about ZTLs in Italy (they're everywhere!) are always worth repeating.

Yep - the travelnuts will be flying home in four days. Sometimes on long-ish threads I think people just don't page back up to re-read the OP therefore missing the dates, and just carry on posting their sage advice no matter if its useful or not ;)

The only remaining question: Will there be a trip report?

If they stuck to the last mentioned plan, they're at Lake Garda today and tomorrow... where the feels like temp is 93F. Ugh.