What keeps you keep returning to BKK?
 

Hi Asian travelers,
Now that my family and I have had a taste of BKK and surrounding areas, we are curious about why so many of you Fodorites return again and again to this large, crowded, old city? In fact, much of the chatter on this forum involves talk about BKK or other Thai cities. My questions:
1. What keeps you returning to BKK?
2. Where else in SE Asia do you feel just as enthusiastic about, and why?
3. How do you compare Thailand to travel in China (which is where we are considering in 2007)?
Many thanks for your reply...I love learning from all of you!

Hi, Terry, Bangkok is one of my favorite cities. I do return almost every year because I like to take a trip to Asia every year, and Bangkok is a great gateway. The other gateway city I use is Singapore. I use Bangkok as a gateway to other parts of Thailand, Laos, VietNam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Nepal...

What I love about Bangkok is the energy, the people, the culture, the wats, the food, the shopping... I am seriously considering retiring to Bangkok part-time. (There are other places in Asia I am also considering) I like to go "off the beaten path" on my trips, so after time in more remote places, it's always a pleasure to return to the luxuries of Bangkok. As you know, Bangkok is a place where you can live very well, indeed, as a traveler for the price of a mediocre hotel room in the US or the price of a small closet in Europe.

I have traveled all over the world. Yes, there are always new places to see, and I always plan at least one new place on my Asia trip and another new place at another time in the year. While there are many places I enjoy, SE Asia always keeps calling me back - especially Bangkok.

Travel in Thailand in general is much easier than travel in China. I don't want to discourage you, as I think China is one of the great civilizations and you should see it, but China is more difficult in many ways. Fewer people speak English, and the travel infrastructure is less developed than in Thailand. The pitfalls for the unwary are much more than for Thailand in my experience. Pricing of all kinds seems incomprehensible at first (though you'll figure it out) and the variations in price for a hotel room or a plane ticket are much wider than in Thailand. China is also a huge country, and you'll have to make many more decisions about limiting what you plan to see than you do in Thailnd. You can still do China on your own, many of us have. It takes lots of research and preparation - and it's worth it.

I agree with Kathie. It's the energy, the people, the accomodations, the food, and the sanuk. I've been coming for years and will be leaving to fly back to L.A. today. I've been in Bangkok for three weeks. Had no desire to go anywhere else on this trip. I've also traveled all over the world....annually for 30-plus years...but Bangkok is at the top of my list although West Africa also has a big piece of my heart. Happy Travels!

Kathie and Guenmai, you both talk about the energy found in Bangkok. I am most interested in your description. That so-called energy surely must grow on people who give BKK a second and third chance and return again and again. To be honest, as a first-timer there recently who approached our visit "openly," I would not describe my experience of the city this time 'round as energizing (do you remember your first time in BKK?). For me, the experience was intense, some of that intensity good and some of that draining... overstimulating may be another way to describe the experience (now I wouldn't call Manhattan as overstimulating in the same way as I felt in BKK...why is that?). There was so much to learn on every level daily, and every day brought challenges to a newcomer...also as reflected in the many fodors comments and feedback. Our conversation serves to remind us of the differences that new (and new to Asia too) travelers vs. seasoned travelers may feel towards this destination...more so, I imagine, than other major cities in Asia? It definitely sounds like BKK is a city that can "grow" on you if you give it a second (and third) chance. Oh, and I totally get it about the luxuries found there and why people keep coming back for that. But visually, it's not the prettiest of cities, it's crowded, dirty, congested, but you are so right about the people and their gentle grace, their culture, the food, shopping.... It will be interesting to hear other people's perspective as well.

Given the challenges that you say are in China travel, Kathie (I can't believe that they are even more than in Thailand...gosh, I better start my education about travel in that country real soon, lol....If I hadn't logged on to this fodors asia forum before we left for Thailand, we would definitely have been a lot less prepared in all the choices we made), would you ever ever recommend a small group tour to do China? My husband and I are generally not group kinds of people, but we want to see a lot of the country and get around, but the amount of research and organization required feels overwhelming...well, especially since we are still recovering from our first-time Thailand/Siem Reap trip.

Btw, Guenmai, what is the sanuk? Wishing you a safe and comfortable flight back to LA!

Terry-


I find that all cities in Asia can be very overwhelming due to the crowds, the weather, and a very different set of manners, especially when it comes to shopping. You can do it on your own, but as a first timer, I find you need to be very, very prepared- hotels booked in advance, lists of places you hope to see, Phone numbers and maps, pages of tips, directions, and warnings highlighted with bright pens!

I found that Thailand, especially Bangkok, was really easy to figure out compared to places like India and China. Not only is it fairly compact with a good and safe transportation system, but the people are nice and English is widely used on signs. The restaurants and shops (and retail customs in general) are easy to understand.

Thats not to say you can't just come and wing it, but I find if I try to do that on a first visit to an asian country, I often don't seem to "connect". That happened when I went to China, and I'm only now thinking of returning.

When I went to India for the first time recently, I wanted to love it, so I was much more prepared and scheduled than I normally am, just so that I wouldn't have to worry about feeling lost or out of control. Even so, that is a country where it is REALLY hard to travel; talk about large, crowded, and old. Makes Bangkok feel like Disneyland!

I fell in love with Japan on my first visit many years ago, and still love it. I have returned many times and always find new places and new things to discover about it. Part of this stems from my familiarity with the culture and language. I know how to get around, how to find a place to eat, and how to shop and how to order my meals. Anywhere I go in Japan I can focus on the place and not just on 'survival'.

My sister, on the other hand, went to Tokyo and Kyoto, and just didn't get it-- too many big buildings, too many people, too hard to find a decent meal. She and her husband were there for him to do a talk, and did no advance plannning or reading. I know she'd love it if I took her instead!

So maybe familiarity is one reason that keeps people returning. You can figure out Bangkok pretty easily, but there is so much to do and see that it doesn't become boring.

One other thing I like about Thailand is that people there are not ashamed to be in the service business and many are genuinely friendly while providing a really luxurious experience.

To be honest I don't think I would make BKK my main destination more than once. I had better define "main destination" - to my mind that is somewhere you spend at least 5 days in.

In 5 days you can see pretty much all BKK has to offer - and then return trips are about feeling at home in a foreign place.

I do - I like returning to BKK - but I do it because I hate travelling London to Sydney without a break. So, I get off at BKK. I feel the familiarity and enjoy the vibes, described by other posters, for a while - but only for as long as it takes to get out to somewhere else - whether it be in Thailand or elsewhere.

It's a fine gateway - but I cannot imagine why you would want to go there time and time again just to stay in the city.

For a long time we were planning to stay in BKK for 5 days in the beginning of Nov. After reading all the great posts for BKK, I was planning to return even before I got there.

The reality was disappointing. The weather was hot and humid, exhausting, requiring 3 showers a day. The best description of the physical city I could think of was 'grungy'. The sidewalks was almost non-existant, and where present were dangerous to walk. It was crowded with people and packed with stands, such that it was most unpleasant. The streets were packed with smokey cars, and it was difficult to cross them. The klong trip was depressing for the falling down and collapsed 'buildings'. And I felt that there was not that much variety to see.

Yet the people were admirable for their friendliness and helpfulness. Except, of course, for the deceitfulness of the taxi and tuk tuk drivers.

I was certainly jaded by the oppressive weather, but the whole experience was that I would not rush to return. ((R))

Please, people, this is my opinion, and I am entitled to it. Please don't excoriate me for my opinion.

Jed- I think if you did a little homework on this forum and followed the sage advice given here a lot of the disappointment would have been eliminated. Yes its hot- but by elisting the services of a good driver (Ratt), and by avoiding the Tuk Tuks, and yes even the taxis- your experience would have been much more pleasant. It also matters where you stay. BKK is a city that you have to experience slowly- pacing yourself.

Billt-

I read every post here on BKK for months.

We went on a group tour, so we didn't need another guide.

We took one tuk tuk (for the experience) and 2 taxis.

We stayed at ROS on the river. Hard to beat.

Please tell me if any of the facts I mentioned were wrong.

It is not my purpose to demean BKK, just to give my experience.

It's the people!! My last trip to BKK was in Sept/Oct and I did not leave BKK except for a two day stay on Phuket. I'm going back again on the 17th of jan and will leave BKK only to go to Chiang mai for a couple of days, during my two week visit. I agree with guenmai, I can stay in BKK for two weeks and enjoy every single day of it.
Carol
(hello from the Caribbean...)

Ok all of your points were accurate but since you read about the tuk tuks and taxis, the weather,- you knew that going in. I'm getting the impression that this might be your first trip to a SE Asian big city? Except for Singapore- a lot of what you point out can be applied to a lot of SEAsian cities.
Ratt is not a guide- she is driver and its by having a driver take you all over you can beat the heat and humidty to a large extent. Yes I agree even with Ratt you wind up take 2 or more showers - thats SE Asia for you.
I agree with you on the Klong tour- we skipped that also. But we did find the Grand Palace, Teak Manison , Jim Thompson House, night market, and BMK wonderful so our experience in BKK was very good. In other words the good out weighed the bad. But its not everyone's cup of tea so I understand what you are saying.

jed, just curious how long did you stay in bkk and did you venture anywhere else on this trip?

We went to BKK (and other parts of Thailand in 1994)..We did not like Bangkok at all!! Next time we went to Thailand in 2001, we decided to skip Bangkok all together...

But now, after reading all of the positive posts about BKK, and have travelled more extensively to many large,hot,poluted cities...i can't help but want to go to BKK again, and see it for myself, again!! So that is why we have booked 6 nights after our trip to Goa in a few months!! I am hoping to see a BKK that i didn't see the first time!!!

The tuk tuks and taxis were a minor factor.

I read about the weather, but until you experience it.....

We have been to China - 7 cities.

Most of the time we went by air-condirioned bus or vans.

My purpose is to describe BKK. You can say how to survive it.

Different people like different things. Jed, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. The one comment I'd make is that I think your experience of Bangkok was colored by being on a tour. In my experience, tours rush you around, you don't have time or opportunity to chose what or when you want to do things. I can think of few things as awful as being herded through Bangkok! (I'm laughing as I write this)

Bill thinks your experience would have been better had you hired Ratt, I think your experience would have been better if you'd been on your own and could choose and do at your own pace. But you're the one who had the experience of Bangkok and only you can judge whether you would return.

fuzzylogic, I chuckled at your cocmment "In 5 days you can see pretty much all BKK has to offer - and then return trips are about feeling at home in a foreign place." I've been to Bangkok probably 20 times. I have new things I want to do on my list every time, and I always leave without having done all of them. Yes, there is a sense of "home" to Bangkok for me, but I wouldn't keep returning if there wasn't something new (in Bangkok as well as on the rest of my itinerary).

Kathie- when we hired Ratt we went at our own pace. Having a driver at your disposal is not that uncommon in Asia for the well to do. We set our own agenda and took our time in the things that we did with Ratt- as I have said many times- that heat/humidity can wear you down- it certainly did for us when we were on our own- climbing Skytrain stairs- geting lost at times wandering around. (those were the 2-3 shower days!)
Having Ratt (or other drivers) makes all the difference in that your energy level is not drained in 2 hours- we did so much more with our driver and came back more relaxed. In addition we were not schlepping packages all around on trains,boats or taxis. To each his own of course and its not everyone's cup of tea to get a driver. For us its the way to go!

i tried to contact ratt, but she is already booked (of course) and offered another driver. Heard so many mixed reviews on this, is it worth it?

Ratt is expanding her business and I think she is going through some growing pains with new people and perhaps a mixed level of service compared to what she provided when it was just herself and her husband. maybe check out Julie's taxi.

I like Bangkok -- I like the vibrancy, the shopping, the streets that are alive with people and food stalls and animals and surprises.

But Bangkok is not my favorite city in Asia -- Hong Kong (a much easier city to visit) and Kyoto (tops for cultural charm) win that contest. Chiang Mai is actually my favorite city in Thailand, but the extra time needed to get there sometimes makes it beyond my reach).

My guess is that the emphasis on Bangkok in this forum is a self-perpetuating, but cyclical, phenomenon.

Kathie -

Whether or not we were 'herded through Bangkok' doesn't change these facts:

The weather was hot and humid.
The sidewalks were either non-existant or dangerous. They were packed with people and stands. (I'm talking about the river and Silom areas.)
The city was 'grungy'.
The streets were packed with smokey cars. They were difficult to cross.
The buildings along the klongs were falling down.

Please tell me if any are incorrect.

This is not to badmouth BKK, but to add to the info on this board as to what to expect when they get there. You can see a previous post of mine: <b>http://linktrim.com/4ay</b>

i can hardly wait to get to BKK to see for myself what all the controversy is about! I have a feeling BKK will be very exciting and thrilling but also overwhelming which is what 4 days at the beach will be for. Hopefully some time for R&amp;R at our bkk hotel too..
BILL T--thanks for the Julie Taxi tip..I've contacted her. Is she has good as Ratt with the cold water/attentiveness? cheers!

I don't have first hand knowledge about Julie- but she has gotten some good reviews here- maybe search on Julie's taxi and see what posts come up.

Yes Jed all those points are correct. I think we have a classic case of - Is the glass half full or half empty.

i will tell you fully at our dinner, but in the meantime from florida i will answer this way:

BKK:

people
price
hotels
food
shopping
not the heat and humididy
ease of getting to other asian places
exoticness
the wild sex and drugs....hahaha

other places:

vietnam
bali
malaysia
myanmar
cambodia
laos
singapore

sorry---cities:

singapore
K/L
hanoi
luang prabang
siem reap
bali as a whole
yangon

Jed, I also HATED Bangkok on my first visit there. The thing I hated most was constantly being stuck in traffic. We were not on the river that first trip and had to take taxis everywhere (the skytrain was not yet built). Honestly, having a Ratt or Julie wouldn't have made a bit of difference since none of the cars could go anywhere. It took an average of 25 minutes to get through a traffic light and what should have been a 30 minute trip turned into a 90 minute ordeal. I tend to get motion sick in stop and go traffic so I was feeling sick much of the time. The heat and humidity didn't help, I thought I was going to faint most of the time. I also thought it was ugly, dirty and depressing, not like Europe and Australia, the places I was used to visiting. This was my first trip to Asia, along with Hong Kong, and it was like a slap in the face. I was expecting exotic beauty and instead got gray and dilapidated.

But three years later, we decided to go back to Thailand and give BKK a second chance. This time we stayed at the Shangri-La and used the boats and water taxis most of the time (the skytrain was by now in the process of being built but not yet running). Since I knew what to expect in terms of the weather and the grunginess of the city, it wasn't a shock to me like it was the first time. Bangkok went from being the worst city in the world to my favorite. I've been back several times since and plan on going back in May. I learned how to handle the heat, crowds, chaos etc and learned that it is a beautiful city, although not always apparent on the surface. You need to look for it, but it's there. The smiles of the people, the Buddhist Wats when people are praying, the flowers, spirit houses with incense drifting from them, the gentleness of the Thai people, all of these combine to make a beautiful place. Once you open yourself up to accept that beauty comes in different packages and on different levels, BKK becomes a magical place. I realize it's not for everyone but I truly believe that most people who give it a second chance and go with an open mind will come to love it. Everything you say about BKK is true, it is all of that but so much more. Maybe that's the reason so many of us love it, the contradictions are so apparent.

laurieco:
Have you used Ratt or Julie? If you did I think you would find that they know the bottlenecks around the city and find ways to avoid them. Case in point. We stayed at the Penn and Ratt parked her car across the river and she met us at the hotel, we rode the Penn's boat across the river and then started our journey- thats because the bridge traffic at that time was too heavy. She then was able to get around rather easily, we did not sit in traffic for long periods.
Now tuk tuks or taxis- thats a different story- you may very well sit in traffic as its in their interest to keep you longer.

Bill, when did you go? The skytrain has helped to alleviate some of the traffic problem. Also, at that time, we were at the Amari Watergate, which is in a congested area so there was no way to avoid the congestion. I've never used Ratt or Julie but on that first trip we did have a driver part of the time. In all honesty, I prefer to not have a driver. I'd rather be on my own and now that we stay at the Pen, we hardly ever need to take taxis, we use the skytrain and water taxis. We will however need a driver on the next trip to get to the Prasart Museum.

We went 2 years ago. We did both- tour about without Ratt using the skytrain and used her for 1/2 days. If we ever go back to BKK (we generally do not repeat destinations as the world is a big place and we have not seen it all yet) we will probably get Ratt for a number of days to take us all over. Its never a question of needing a driver- its just that it makes life so much easier and hey after all you are on vacation. A lot of people pay buku bucks to fly Business class, stay at 5 star hotels, eat at nice restaurants but for some reason think that getting a driver insn't a good idea. They somehow feel that their freedom is restricted in some way- its not! Why not treat yourself to such service?

Bill, I guess part of the reason is that we don't do much advance planning for day by day. We may have a loose plan in the morning of what we want to do but it almost always changes as the day goes by. Having a driver would mean a somewhat fixed itinerary for the day and if we get wishy-washy about our plans, then we will be at the mercy of where a driver thinks we should go. But as I said, on the next trip, we will have a driver for at least one day and we'll see how it goes and if we like it.

Wow, all of your responses are great and confirms that there is a wide opinion about Bangkok, which doesn't always come through on this forum, and that it may not be for everyone...but then again, it is a city that can grow on you. Especially as second-time visitors, I imagine that you come more prepared and with a different set of expectations than on your first visit. I appreciate what Icuy and laurieco said...that the beauty of Bangkok is not always apparent on the surface.

Having heard so much positive review about this city from this forum prior to our departure, I was a bit disappointed in my own response to Bangkok while there...they certainly were not as negative as Jed's, but I was expecting to fall in love with the place, which I did not. I mean, I loved many parts of it, but did not fall in love with the sum total. It's useful to hear from others that they felt the same way too their first time, but grew to appreciate it even more overtime. My takeaway in this discussion is that Bangkok often requires more than one chance if one really wants to get to know it and to know &quot;the mysterious sauce&quot; that makes this city so special to so many.

I think you have hit on a perception shared by many. Here is how we look at it. You hire Ratt or Julie for the day- 8 hours. They take you anywhere (a little bit extra if you go out of town).
You can have a set agenda or you can change it all day long- it does not matter- she is there to drive you. Many people in Asia that are somewhat well to do have full time drivers- they drive to where ever their employer asks them to go. Same thing here- you are paying for her time- you decide. If you want she can give you ideas but its up to you to decide where to go. We went all over with Ratt and it was not always planned out. We said where can we go to find good knockoff bags? Ratt took us to a few places. Then we said lets go Gold shopping- and off we went to Chinatown. We did some sight seeing as well and on the way we stopped at some places enroute. It can be planned or spur of the moment- it doesn't matter. Its all about what you want and never having to worry about getting there!!!!

bill, what's the value of a 1/2 day driver--do you think it's worthwhile? 10hrs is a long time to have a driver. I just found out ratt's available one day we're in bkk, so we are considering it...

Bill, you've convinced me to give it a try. We always hire drivers in SEA, such as in Vietnam, Burma, etc so why not BKK. I guess we always felt comfortable going around BKK on our own since we feel &quot;at home&quot; there. Since we will have a driver to take us to the Prasart, we'll keep the driver for the day and see how it goes. At this point, I'm leaning towards Julie Taxi, I'm not thrilled with Ratt's latest reviews.

This forum is mainly populated by people who love Bangkok and visit again and again, and love the malls and shopping, so it does really have a point of view. Before we went most people we talked to who had visited Bangkok or Southeast Asia actually did not like Bangkok -- said it was dirty, crowded, polluted. We didn't expect too much and ended up really liking it and are going back next month. First, we stayed on the river and LOVED everything about the Mariott which felt like a lovely tropical resort in a city. Second, we fell in love with the gentle gracious people. I think on a tour you just miss the interaction with the people, which is one of the things that makes Thailand so special. Every interaction was so pleasant. We did not have any problems with taxi drivers (all used the meter) or, surprisingly, any encounters with touts. And third, we loved the &quot;mix&quot; and contrasts - the exotic next to the mundane; the modern high rises next to the extraordinary wats and Grand Palace; the monks in their saffron robes contrasted with stylishly dressed office workers; the beautiful restaurants, some in beautifully restored teak houses with lovely garden settings right around the corner or down the block from sidewalk vendors with people obviously enjoying their meals and each other; the profusion of flowers at the flower market and the spirit houses everywhere -- it all seemed to more than compensate for the general grimy grayness of some of the central areas. Also, we were there for 7 days in January -- cooler weather -- and I think that having that much time meant that we did not have to run from place to place and could take our time to explore. Bangkok is certainly not for everyone, and I think we wouldn't have liked it as much if we had been on a tour -- or had stayed at the ROS, which we thought was charmless (sorry Kathie &amp; GPanda).

Jed, I just happened to notice your post about the kindness and gentleness of the Thai people. Seems like you hit on what keeps people going back. I'm copying it here because it really captures the feeling.

Author: Jed
What impressed me most about Thailand was its people. Uniformly they were smiling, kind, and respectful.

Granted, they tried to get the most money from tourists in selling their goods and quoting taxi fares, but I realize that they were all trying to make a living. It is a difficult job to make a living there since they were hawking similar items.

But observing them was a wonderful lesson. They were soft spoken, never raising voices, never losing their temper. Every waiter, clerk, cabbie, shopkeeper was smiling and tried to do their best. I could sense the honesty, the desire to be nice. Never rude, confrontational, or gruff.

What a change from the US where some of the workers feel that they are doing you a favor. And all with their palms out expecting a tip for the most minimal of help. And getting angry and rude for the most trivial reasons.

Kindness, composure were the norm. Compare this to the US, where we feel that the way to get results is by acting and talking roughly.

What a splendid way to live. As hectic as it is, there is an underlying palpable serenity. We could all learn from it.

Where else did you visit in Thailand other than BKK?

CFW - Thanks for bringing up my previous post. I think it shows my objectivity about Thailand.

We also went to Ayuthaya, Lamphun, Lampang, Phistanulok, Sukhothai, and Chiang Mai (and Angkor Wat).

Maybe I was expecting too much, after listening to my brother-in-law who was in BKK 4 times, and still wanted more.

Next time I go to BKK, (in my next life, as there a lot of other places I want to see), I will go in December or January. ((F))

I have only been to Bangkok twice but I already know I will go there again and that I will again love it.

I love it because it is both extremely foreign (to me as a westerner) and at the same time extremely accessible. The service is fantastic. The food is amazing. The culture is fascinating.

I love Bangkok for most of the same reasons I love New York City, and it has many of the same drawbacks as well. Yes, both cities are dirty, polluted, and can be exhausting. But both cities also make me feel alive in a way that most other cities don't.

&quot;Old&quot; is not a word I'd use for either New York or for Bangkok. Both are quite new, actually...for both better and worse I suppose.

First time I went to Bkk I also didn't like it - probably just too overwhelming and dirty and way too much traffic. I am use to Asian cities but that was extreme. However I went back the next year (as we were going through to somewhere else in Thailand) and grew to love it. The more I get to know it the more I like it. We go back each year now (for the last 13 years) and have a decent stop and then go on to somewhere else. In fact I usually plan around going through Bkk on purpose! There is always something still to find and see, the people are wonderful, food great, shopping great. We go in August usually so the weather is not the best but I've got use to that too. Only thing that still gets to me is the noise in the shopping malls - say like Pantip - everything is a maximum - and the traffic noise on the really busy streets. Should use some earplugs!

I still find that when I get on the plane to come home I'm starting to plot how to get back again.

I keep returning to Bangkok because of 1) The Oriental Hotel; 2) the people and 3) getting clothes made at Cotton House and 4) the restaurants. However, I now believe that Chiang Mai is my favorite Thailand destination.