Tour Group?
 

We are looking into using United Vacations -Asia for our upcoming China trip. Anyone else use them? Your experiences?

Thanks!

Is this actually a tour group? I've looked at prices for various destinations though United Vacations and they all seemed to just be travel packages: air & hotel, no tour group, guides, etc. (which I think is better anyway, as I find tour groups just deadly.)

They are working on an itinerary for me now. I think they are a travel agency.

Before you book with an agency, please do a search on this forum for previous posts on whether and how to chose a company for a tour in China. And ignore herbre, who seems to be an (undeclared) agent.

thursdaysd,

I tried searching for tour groups or choosing tour company and came up with nothing. Can you advise me how to search?

We are debating whether to set up the whole trip by ourselves or not. But I'm chicken. If something goes wrong, we don't have anyone to talk to.

Start by choosing China from the drop-down menu at the top of the page. That will give you all of the posts about China.

Next, read some of the relevant posts. You'll find that most people here opt to travel independently. You'll also find extensive posts especially by Peter N-H about why you might not want to travel with a tour.

You might start with these:

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...-itinerary.cfm
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...ritz-tours.cfm
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...n-may-2009.cfm
http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...g-shanghai.cfm

The perpetual question-

Tour group or independent? Is there one answer for everyone?

> The perpetual question-

> Tour group or independent? Is there one answer for everyone?

This isn't the question being asked here. There's nothing wrong with either method of travel. What is right is that no one who prefers to travel independently should feel the need to take a tour in China, and that those who prefer tours should understand the very problematic nature of organised tourism in China, how much this differs from what they might expect, and just how much they will be taken for a ride. The aim is that if they should still want to choose a tour it should be with eyes wide open and wallet firmly shut, avoiding the worst pitfalls.

Being profoundly misled, paying more than you need to, and having your pocket thoroughly picked? Is there one answer for everyone?

Peter N-H

Have a nice day.

Thanks for all of your advice. I guess I would like to arrange the trip myself, but I'm chicken. I'm afraid I might miss something. For instance, I was planning a day at the museums in Beijing like the History/Revolution one. trevelchinaguide informed me that they are closed at the moment with no date of reopening yet. That's info I wouldnt' have been aware of. Certainly this could come up many times during the trip.

I'm concerned about being "taken" also. Even though we are not suppose to be paying the commission for the travel agents, (the hotels, etc are), but do WE pay a higher rate for the hotels so that they can in turn pay the travel agents their commission?

What has your experience been with travelchinaguide?

"I'm afraid I might miss something." - that's what guidebooks and sites like this are for. Visit your library and borrow the picture guides like Fodor's Exploring or DK Eyewitness to decide what you want to see. Then settle in at your local bookstore with a cup of coffee to go through the guides with info on trains, buses etc before deciding which one to buy (I like Lonely Planet, although PeterN_H disagrees.) Then post your itinerary here for comment.

I'll let Peter deal with the commission question...

travelchinaguide is a travel agency. Haven't used it and don't intend to.

"I'm afraid I might miss something." Of course you'll miss something, you'll miss lots of things. There is no way you can go somewhere and see everything. The point isn't even to try to see everything, the point is to see/do/experience the things that interest you most.

Get yourself a good guide book or even two. Once you've decided what you want to do/see/experience, you'll find you can do it yourself. One tip - don't schedule in too much. It's the incidental happenings that are often the most memorable.

Travel agents have to be paid by someone. Unlike posters on this forum, they aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they are doing it to pay their mortgage.

> I'm afraid I might miss something.

What does this mean? Do some reading, decide what you want to see, and go and see it. Go on a tour and you'll be taken to see/shop at/eat at/stay at places that suit them rather than you.

> For instance, I was planning a day at the museums in Beijing like the History/Revolution one. trevelchinaguide informed me that they are closed at the moment with no date of reopening yet. That's info I wouldnt' have been aware of.

Assuming you suddenly lost the ability to read, or to type search criteria into Google, this might indeed be true. The idea that because travelchinaguide knows information it would be mysteriously hidden from others is, er... not tenable.

These museums no longer exist, and will eventually re-open as the National Museum. Some say this will be in the second half of this year, but no one I spoke to there in late winter this year was admitting to any opening date in particular. For now the Capital Museum (Google it) will do you just as well, and if you want to do museums all day there are two others in a few minutes' walk.

But let's suppose that you decided to do no reading or research at all, and showed up at the shuttered museum, would this be a calamity?

Stand with your back to the museum and you have Tian'an Men Square in front of you with the Mao Mausoleum. Across the square you have the Great Hall of the People, and a small coin museum. To your right the Forbidden City, and to your left the Zhangyang Men and its Arrow Tower (often known as Qian Men). Adjacent to those you have the British-built railway station due to open (eventually) as a railway museum, the Legation Quarter, the (revoltingly) rebuilt Qian Men Dajie (Avenue) itself (assorted historic restaurants in revamped premises) with some genuine late-Qing/early Nationalist-era shopping to one side, and a warren of hutong. Metro stations on two different lines at the north and south end of the square would put you within a few minutes' travel of dozens of other sights. And if you had a half-decent guide book in hand (which you had neglected to read until that moment, however) it would tell you all this.

> Certainly this could come up many times during the trip.

Certainly if you're determined (without previous experience) that this is hard, then of course it will be hard. It isn't for the majority of other people, but if you really must take a tour then take one. No excuses necessary.

> I'm concerned about being "taken" also.

This is, of course, the main reason why you shouldn't take a tour.

> Even though we are not suppose to be paying the commission for the travel agents, (the hotels, etc are), but do WE pay a higher rate for the hotels so that they can in turn pay the travel agents their commission?

Foreign-managed hotels globally pay standard, well-advertised commission rates to agencies that bring them bookings and which are included in the published room rates. However, if you are booking a foreign-managed hotel in Beijing then in the majority of cases the cheapest rate is to be found on the hotel's own website, and most guarantee that in writing. If you think you've found the same room cheaper elsewhere they will compensate you. But you will be wrong.

If, on the other hand, you are planning to stay in a Chinese-managed hotels then if you go to them directly you will typically pay a great deal more, and possibly double, what you will pay if you simply show up at the counter and bargain. Nobody pays the published rates except a few daft foreigners. However, if you must book in advance then instead you use, at least for one or two nights to give you a soft landing, one of the Chinese hotel booking engines such as Ctrip or eLong. These aren't without their problems, and the descriptions of hotels provided are often profoundly mendacious (they often are on Western booking sites, too), but the rates are usually reasonably close to those you could obtain by yourself with a bit of bargaining.

Peter N-H

Wow, lots of excellent info. Thank you all.

BTW, by miss something, I was referring to missing a part of the planning that I need for the trip, not missing seeing something in China. As you said, there is so much to see, no one can see it all. I meant miss a step we need for the trip.

Hi, all. we just completed 15 day vacation in China. It was a private tour arranged with travelchinaguide. They provided airfare, local guides and some of the hotels. We had 2 couples travelling together and in our opinion the agency did very good job for us. most guides had excellent language skills and in general were very helpful. But the biggest help came on the day of Yushu earthquake, when we were in Lhasa.
Our flight was cancelled, but they managed to rebook us, so we did not lose much time. We met people who got stuck in similar situation.

Regards, Mike

Nothing here to counter the argument that you can get the airfare (and accommodation, and everything else) cheaper yourself; nor do the language skills of local guides make any difference to the poor accuracy of the historical and other background information they provide; nor is there any reason whatsoever to suppose that you wouldn't have been able to re-book your own flights (it is inevitable that not everyone will get what they want in a situation like this, but no particular reason to believe that having a guide would be an advantage, or that others with guides didn't get stuck).

You may wish to take an organised tour regardless of any arguments presented in the links given above, but there's nothing here to make a case for doing so. And with this tour company in particular the same questions need to be asked as have been suggested for others, as their website is worryingly coy.

Actually, everything you need to know about travelchinaguide can be found in this advice on tipping, from its website:

' Do I have to tip when join an organized tour?

' Answer: Yes, you need to tip even though you join an organized tour.
The quotation we offered doesn't include the tips for the guides and drivers. So if you are satisfactory with their service, you need to tip them yourself.'

There is no tipping in China, other than that foisted upon hapless foreigners by con artists such as these. Steer well clear.

In a country where the language is a problem, we prefer to go first by tour group and after that on our own. On our first trip we used Pacific Delight mostly because it seemed to go to all the places, Bejing, Sian, Guilin, Shanghai, Yangtse Cruise and was the cheapest.
It was a great tour. While it is true that the eating establishments did not even compare with Panda Express, you must remember that Chinese food in China is not really the same as US Chinese food.
While, it is also true there is not supposed to be tipping in China but Chinese are born capitalists. One of the reasons that our tour was so good was that when we got to some place crowded, our tour was singled out to go to the front of the line. The reason was that our tour guide, Judy, had collected tips at $2 per person per day. She then put the money in envelopes with each destination on it. She selected someone from the tour to be responsible for making sure that it was all given out to the guides. She chose my husband so I am positive it was all given out. When the guides saw her, they knew that there was a good tip in it for them, hence we always walked to the front of the line.

In a country where the language is a problem, we prefer to go first by tour group and after that on our own. On our first trip we used Pacific Delight mostly because it seemed to go to all the places, Bejing, Sian, Guilin, Shanghai, Yangtse Cruise and was the cheapest.
It was a great tour. While it is true that the eating establishments did not even compare with Panda Express, you must remember that Chinese food in China is not really the same as US Chinese food.
While, it is also true there is not supposed to be tipping in China but Chinese are born capitalists. One of the reasons that our tour was so good was that when we got to some place crowded, our tour was singled out to go to the front of the line. The reason was that our tour guide, Judy, had collected tips at $2 per person per day. She then put the money in envelopes with each destination on it. She selected someone from the tour to be responsible for making sure that it was all given out to the guides. She chose my husband so I am positive it was all given out. When the guides saw her, they knew that there was a good tip in it for them, hence we always walked to the front of the line.

> It was a great tour. While it is true that the eating establishments did not even compare with Panda Express, you must remember that Chinese food in China is not really the same as US Chinese food.

I must admit I'm a little confused by this. I'm assuming Panda Express is some kind of Chinese fast food outlet somewhere in the West and thus by definition utterly dreadful. Of all the many pleasures of visiting China, the food is one of the greatest--its immense variety (much of it completely unknown to the West), its almost universally vastly superior quality (not least because it's actually authentic), and its remarkable cheapness. So if the food given on the tour was even worse than the worst fast food in the West, it's really hard to see how this can be a 'great tour'.

Pacific Delight used to be one of those companies that sent along a foreign tour manager to keep an eye on things and prevent accommodation substitutions, the additions of extra shopping stops and so on, but according to one of their former employees who posted here this came to an end the year before last. Certainly what seems to be meeting with approval here is the sort of corruption that surely ought not to be encouraged, and which only helps to make things get worse. The duty of the tour leader is to protect you from that sort of thing, not encourage it.

The excuse 'but Chinese are born capitalists' seems to indicate that it is acceptable that foreigners be targeted for extra charges that local people would not even be asked for (and certainly would not pay). If foreigners are willing to condone this sort of behaviour it can hardly be surprising that the Chinese tour industry is so full of it, and tour groups are so often cheated in so many other ways.

If the corruption referred to is extra tipping ($2 pp to jump a line, when most groups hardly wait in line at all), I agree; that one seems outrageous (who watched the envelopes every night, and were they sealed?) :) However, I hope the poster is not extolling the virtues of Panda Express (not so much "dreadful," but very consistent and limited; bowl of rice, with stir-fried vegetables, or chicken, or beef), but warning others that if they expect the food to be like their neighborhood restaurant, it won't be. (For example, don't expect soy sauce!)
If the poster really thinks Panda Express "chinese" food is better? Sounds like they visited only the horrible factory-stop or tour-group places, and not regular restaurants. The food one finds wandering around is, indeed, vastly superior (and cheap, unless you're visiting a hot spot on the Bund in Shanghai).

<i>Peter N-H: If, on the other hand, you are planning to stay in a Chinese-managed hotels then if you go to them directly you will typically pay a great deal more, and possibly double, what you will pay if you simply <u>show up at the counter and bargain</u>.</i>

LOL! Here's a little help to get started on the language skills you'll need to bargain for your bed.

http://everything2.com/title/Chinese+dialects

I followed PeterN_H's advice and believe I saved quite a lot on my rooms. I simply showed up at the counter, where I was almost always offered a substantially discounted rate and sometimes successfully bargained for an even lower price. All it required was a phrase book and willingness to try.

> All it required was a phrase book and willingness to try.

Well said, and well done. And this, of course, is the common experience of thousands of people travelling independently around China even as we speak, and who are negotiating their hotels as they go, paying substantially less (not uncommonly less than 50% of the supposedly official rate, routinely 70% of it, just as the Chinese all do). Indeed, all it takes is the smallest amount of gumption and not even a phrase book. The willingness is all.

KJA: Didn't you post this in your trip report?

<i>"things I liked least:..... the frustrations of being unable to express myself well or to understand others (particularly those who didn’t know pinyin and so couldn’t use my pocket dictionary, which was alphabetized by pinyin, to find words)"</i>

I guess I just don't need the frustration at the end of a long hot day. I, too, <i>"believe I saved quite a lot"</i> by letting R. Crusoe bargain for my rooms at the Ritz Carlton or the Four Seasons. Although you-know-who will say that my beliefs are wrong and yours are correct. Oh well. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this bargaining for a bed thing. Saving five dollars is rarely the most important of my goals.

And, if you are an older female, traveling with same (or even alone), on your first visit, with only your phrase book, the VERY LAST thing you want to do is go hunting and bargaining for your hotel. This would be a trip-killer for me.

To each one's own. If you want to go on a tour, by all means do so. But I think the point, Sylvia, is that one can, indeed, bargain for rooms even without speaking Chinese. I've bargained for many things over the years with people who spoke none of my language and I spoke none of theirs. And this has nothing to do with either gender or age.

TC, it has been said many times here that if you want to stay at the Ritz or the Four Seasons or any other western-owned hotel, you'll get the best price by contacting the hotel directly in advance. The bargaining instructions are for Chinese-owned hotels.

I've always pictured arriving in a strange city and going to a particular hotel you'd like to stay at and bargaining for rooms only to find out they are full, nearly full, or not in a bargaining mood that day, then schlepping on to another hotel -- when your second choice might even be miles away. Just not my idea of a "fun way" to start a trip just to save a few dollars.

And there are numerous reports here of people who reserved at CHINESE hotels months before going and got savings of up to 50% that way -- I'm doing so myself in both Beijing and Shanghai. But some of these same people reported returning for a stopover a week later, or trying to bargain for an additional night and ending up paying much more for that night than the original special booked price.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not suggesting paying the full 'rack' rates for a hotel in China makes any sense-- why would you do that?, but it does seem like preplanning and advance booking can get you just as good of deals, sometimes better, or at least close enough that the peace of mind KNOWING where you're going to bed down for the night may be "worth" it to some travelers.

Speaking of hotels, increasingly my preferred type of accommodations are the Chinese chains of 3* budget business hotels. There's no bargaining, as the prices are listed and firm, though you may get a discount if you join their frequent stayer club.

Unlike other hotels where the list rate may be 400RMB and you need to bargain down to 180RMB (say at a large provincial capital like Chengdu, Lanzhou or Xining, but not Beijing or Shanghai); these hotels simply list their price as 180 or 200RMB.

We've recently stayed at two of these chains - Home Inns and GreenTree Inns - and they are very satisfactory. Similar to a Holiday Inn Express in the US.

So, just book it and go straight to the hotel. Save all the hassle.

Kathie: I think I got "the point."
One can certainly bargain to one's hearts content; however, after double-digit hours on an uncomfortable plane, exhausted and frazzled, who the hell wants to truck around Beijing, or wherever, wasting time just to find a bargain? Not me. But by all means, if you have the energy after that, go for it. After a 13+ hour flight and time change, I like to know where I'm staying and get there, not fumble for my phrase book and hope for the best.

sylvia, i didn't get the impression Kathie was saying you have to do that with ALL hotels on your trip...and certainly didn't see anywhere in her post where she said you must do this at the FIRST hotel you stay in.
her point is a good one and should be well-noted for flexible travelers looking for unadvertised savings. folks who are willing to wing it a bit can score massive discounts on occasion.

Several more detailed and accurate descriptions of fixed-rate business hotels from the last couple of years will be found by clicking the 'advanced search' link above, and searching postings and replies over the last couple of years for the term 'jingji'.

A summary of mainland Chinese hotel types and the different booking methods for each was published under another thread just last month:

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...nohotelcom.cfm

I hope that helps those still to make their travel decisions, although it has little to do with the original question posed.

I think that negotiating on the spot for a hotel room is a good option for some, and this thread is definitely helpful and a money saver for those who might not otherwise have thought it was possible.

It's not for me, though, at least not with my current trip planning.

I'm finding that over the years my travel style is changing. While my goal used to be to find a clean bed, now my hotels are a big part of my travel experience. I tend to travel in the high season for some reason, so I book far in advance in order to get a room at my choice hotels. And I'm willing to pay a premium for it.

Then there's the reason listed by others above about running from place to place. As a solo traveler with luggage, it's not ideal to have a taxi wait out front (with my luggage in the boot? and will the driver even understand?) while I try to negotiate a room, and then drive somewhere and try again.

Most importantly, and I don't think this has been addressed, is that when traveling solo, I make sure people back home have my detailed itinerary and contact information. I make it a habit of keeping in touch regularly via email, but if for some reason something goes wrong, they will at least know where I am supposed to be.

Yes, this costs in money and decreased flexibility, but it saves in peace of mind :)

An earlier response on this seems to have got lost in the ether. Briefly:

Thanks for recognising, as many others seem not to, that 'I wouldn't do this' isn't the same as saying 'it can't, isn't, or shouldn't be done'.

Turning up and bargaining only works for Chinese-run hotels (where it is standard procedure) and not at any hotels that might be 'a big part of the travel experience', although I'm not sure that China has any of these, nor that most visitors are going to be spending must time in their rooms anyway. Once adequate levels of comfort and security are achieved then it's a matter of style, and the choice at four- or five-star level (if something at least approaching those standards is required) will be a foreign-run hotel where discounts at the counter, if any, will be slight. Booking through the hotel's own site, especially if you strongly favour a particular property, is indeed best.

High season in China may very well not be what you think it is, though, and of course varies from destination to destination within China. It bears no relation at all to high seasons for travelling in Europe or North America, for instance. High season there tends to be a period of low demand in China. As it is, there's a vast oversupply of hotel rooms at every level for most of the year in most parts of China, and the chances of being turned away are slight.

People do just turn up and bargain using public transport, let alone taxis. Hotels are usually in clusters so seeing two or three more (if desired) isn't usually a problem. There's no problem leaving your luggage in the taxi, but it's usually better to get a fresh one anyway since meter rates increase by up to 50% after a few km (the rules vary from city to city). Obviously it's best to travel with luggage you can easily manage, but if you're overloaded the bell boys will bring it in, and take it out again if you don't stop. Hotels don't even mind looking after your luggage while you stroll off, if you wish, and if not solo its easy for one to stay with luggage while the others look. No doubt to some this seems a tremendous fuss, but to others it's perfectly straightforward and no fuss at all.

Communication from Chinese-run hotels down to three-star and often well below includes free wi-fi or Ethernet cable link, and public Internet terminals for free or very low prices. That, or a text message, will put you in touch with home within minutes of arrival.

The benefits are making sure your room is acceptable before you occupy it; having a chance to stay at fresh, new, hotels at very low prices; and paying less (sometimes a very great deal less) for whatever (Chinese-run) hotel you choose.

Many prefer not to book ahead wherever they travel, in order to retain flexibility, But 'peace of mind' is certainly in the head of the beholder (or something) and it's each to his own.

Peter N-H

Ah, but China most definitely does have Chinese-run hotels that are a big part of the travel experience. I was fortunate enough to experience several of them on my first visit to China (and not by accident, but from lots of research). Whether it be breathtaking views from the room or the rooftop terrace, a warm and welcoming proprietor who treats you like family or an inviting courtyard that lends itself to socializing with fellow guests, these are the experiences that tend to make travel even more special.

You all miss the very point that there are people that do not want to hassle with making all the necessary arrangements to go see a country as far away as China. You all think everyone is an independent "lonely planet type" that will venture off and take situations as they come and revel in the adventure...then there are people that want to see the most for the shortest period of time regardless...of course no one wants to be cheated by travel agents but they perform a safe venture for those wanting that style of travel and they serve a purpose..of course you won't get down and dirty with the locals but people are different and one should not chastise those for wanting to take that path, instead accurately tell the pros and cons and respectfully allow the person to make their own choice...by the way, I lean towards the independent travel side becuz I want the control of my time....but I have taken tours before and was satisfied for my objective at that time. You pay a little more but everything is down for you.

> Ah, but China most definitely does have Chinese-run hotels that are a big part of the travel experience.

The sense of 'big part of the travel experience' I was assuming was 'hotel that you would travel to China in order to stay in'--a place sufficiently exciting/charming/appealing so as to be part of the destination's appeal. Much discussion of hotels on this site is of this kind, assuming that it really really matters which of the five stars is chosen, how many microns of gold there are on the bath taps, etc. There are some very fine hotels in China, but in this sense none sufficiently fine to draw people half-way round the world on their own merits (unlike various Hong Kong properties, for instance).

But if 'big part of the travel experience' simply means hotel with some charm, a family atmosphere, a welcoming proprietor, or where a collection of like-minded travellers was found, or that is attractive for some other reason you were pleased to have found, then of course China has many.

But this isn't any argument for booking in advance, and indeed 'lots of research' in no way guarantees that you find these, since most Chinese hotels have effectively no Internet presence at all, and indeed having a sufficient reputation to have an Internet presence can in some cases be a significant disadvantage. Nor, if you have nevertheless identified Chinese-run choices in advance (and research in advance mean you won't have seen hundreds that have opened but have received no publicity), is that any argument for booking in advance. The best rates will still be obtained over the counter.

Again, 'I wouldn't do that', is no argument against it being done. And the sole purpose here is to set out the various options, and the realities of China travel so that people can make informed decisions, whether for fully-escorted tours, fully independent travel, or something in between, and avoid unnecessarily paying more than they need to do.

"and avoid unnecessarily paying more than they need to do."

Well, that is the very basis of difference of opinions here. No one "needs" to go to China at all. And little of what one does when we travel is based on "need". So it's understandable that while some people's main goal on a trip may be to see how little they spend -- for others, a little convenience or less "last minute worry" is worth spending a little more -- or in some cases a lot more. While some love riding around in taxis or rolling suitcases up and down sidewalks after a long flight bargaining for super hotel find they should be encouraged to do that. Especially those whose favorite topic after a vacation is what bargains they got (and there are lots of people who travel for that very reason). And granted some travelers are stretching their budgets to their limits just to be there and really do "need" to count every penny then spend. But for others who would rather arrive with a contract in their pocket and knowing exactly where they are going to sleep and how much it is costing them, or want a confirmed address for people back home to call them in an emergency -- that extra money has nothing to do with "need" -- it simply has to do with how they enjoy travel. Some people may look at these travelers as foolishly spending more than they "need to" -- but that could be said about going to a great restaurant or taking a taxi when a bus is all they "need" or flying business or first class instead of coach. To each his own is right.