Topless in Thailand
 

Just wonder how other travellers feel about the clear disregard to local culture on many Thai beaches concerning ladies being topless. I'm no prude, and certainly have no personal objection to topless ladies!!!!
HOWEVER, as I understand it, Thai people find this offensive and are uncomfortable with it.
Yet year after year I have to tolerate bare boosoms on the beach. Life can be a real trial sometimes!!

What happened to the old 'When in Rome'etc,etc.

On a serious note,why do people have such disregard for local customs?

Maybe they are following after the local custom as expressed on Patpong Road and elsewhere throughout Thailand. They may like to claim prudiness, but the government has apparently turned a blind eye to the fact that numerous poor, young girls are forced to work in brothers. The Thais don't have the moral highground to complain about topless foreigners.

I generally agree with the "When in Rome" sentiment, but I have a hard time meshing that with the Thai hypocrisy.

"brothels" not "brothers" (strange typo)

I agree with you, Leigh about the need to respect local customs. I think many people are simply clueless. I've heard some agrue that "just beacuse they're uptight about it, I don't have to be," thereby exposing their total lack of understanding about the culture (or even the idea that culture should be respected).

I remember someone posting here recently who saw the dress code for wats (or for Catholic churches in Italy) as "just ridiculous." One doeosn't reason with people like that.

thit cho, our posts crossed in cyberspace.

I think you are missing the point of Leigh's post. And I don't think Thais "claim prudiness."

Kathie, I agree with the idea of "When in Rome," but I don't see how Thais can object to topless foreigners on the beach, when a block away, young, poor girls are dancing topless and having sex for money with old foreign men.

I generally abide by the "when in Rome" mantra, but I would find it laughable if a Thai commented on a topless foreign woman while remaining silent at the disgusting debasement of their youth.

I guess so long as the brothels and massage parlors bring in money, the King, the government and the public will look the other way.

I would make a CLEAR distinction between the government and the people (much like life in the US for some of us). Just because the government dictates it, doesn't mean the people sanction it.

The government may administrate over prostitution, but most of the people I met in Thailand were fairly socially conservative, and deeply religious. Seeing fake breasts bouncing all over Phang Nga Bay, while appealing to some tourists, is generally considered offensive to the lay Thai person and the principles of their religion.

I think that was Kathie's (and Leigh's original) point.

I understood the original point, and assumed the question was rhetorical as none of us are able to answer why foreigners ignore local customs.

My answer then, to the question on why people have such disregard for local customs, was to point out that nudity, prostitition, exploitation, degradation, etc. are part of local custom, whether the Thais want to admit it or not. I have never visited a nation with such a nationwide display of prostitution -- its common in all of the Thai cities, towns and villages I visited.

Topless foreigners would rank very, very low, I should think, on their list of social issues.

thit cho, the question is certainly not rhetorical. Wherever I have travelled throughout the world, local customs, for me, are 'not up for debate'. As a visitor in a foreign country I will always do my best to comply with cultural requirements.....regardless of the ethics of that countries government. (don't we all do the research before we go?) My point was that it appears to be clear to me that female topless behaviour is offensive to Thai people....yet so many westerners couldn't care less and for some reason are, well, sticking two fingers up.
Surely as visitors to a foreign country we should be actively trying to comply with the ways of the land.

Whilst I understand your points about the sex industry in Thailand,
I think you miss my point completely.

No, I understood your question, and the answer to your question, which is obvious, is because some travelers are ignorant idiots. They either intentionally disregard local customs, which is offensive, or fail to educate themselves, which is idiotic.

I don't think anyone on this forum, which likely attracts the well traveled, will disagree with the need to conform with cultural norms.

The point I was making is that cultural norms may not be so obvious, especially in Thailand, with its enormous (and enormously profitable) sex industry, and it may not seem obvious to some, after having walked by sex clubs, massage parlors and strip clubs, that topless bathing offends Thai culture.

Leigh, one other question -- what book do you read to learn about Thai customs.

To a large extent, we learn about local customs through observation, and it would not be unreasonable for a foreigner, having observed the rampant sex industry in Thailand, to conclude that topless bathing is permissible -- it would not be unreasonable to conclude that its more offensive than the sight of a young, Thai girl, have dressed, gyrating on a stripper's pole or accompanying an overweight, elderly Westerner as their date, both of which I have seen during my trips to Thailand.

So, its not always possible to divine with certainty what it, and what is not, culturally permissible, especially in Thailand, which may send mixed messages.

If you were an alien descending from space and visiting Bangkok and Paris, which country would you think would look more favorably on topless bathing?

Might I suggest that our feelings as travellers about the behaviour of other travellers is irrelevant. It's probably inappropriate for any of us to sit in judgement on the behaviour of fellow travellers. Similarly, we are not particularly well-situated to sit in judgement of the sexual mores/practices of our hosts. We are guests. The best we can do is to behave and hope we get invited back. Last I looked, I was not given a badge nor even judicial robes. Probably for the best.

Gpanda, well said.

If the Thais object to topless sunbathing, they can certainly either say so, put up signs advising that its inappropriate, fine the offender, etc., but silence is acceptance.

Yes, because we all know how much the government smiles on protest in Thailand.

If they're going to raise their voice, it's not going to be about topless sunbathing, of all things. That's just a silly thing to say.

I don't think the point was even about this originally--the hypothetical question of 'why don't some tourists respect peoples' culture?' was posed.

If you want to pay to go to a titty bar in Bangkok, by all means, help yourself. But showing your unmentionables for all the world to see certainly imparts a crude mentality of 'it's my vacation and I'm going to do whatever I damn well want'.

Forget offending the Thais, some Westerners find it inappropriate too. Believe it or not, the last thing I wanna see during the 2 weeks I get to zone the world out ever year is someone's bare, flabby ass flapping in the wind (other, of course, than my dear spouse's) :)

And, thit_cho, BTW, I don't know if you've vacationed anywhere near a Thai beach, but there are signs EVERYWHERE asking people to please respect their culture and not go topless. So, what more are they supposed to do?

"silence is acceptance"

thit cho - you are absolutely wrong!

In the Buddhist world, silence is non-confrontational, that is their way...

'why don't some tourists respect peoples' culture?' was posed.


As I said, the answer is obvious -- first, many tourists are ignorant or don't care. But, in some places, it may be hard to tell, especially in Thailand, where in certain towns, you walk by strip bars near the beach.

And, I've vacationed on some small Thai islands, but not the more popular ones, but that's because I had friends who were able to direct me to some off-the-beaten-path places.

And, if the sign doesn't work, how about a comment from a local, or a fine from an official. If they didn't get away with it, tourists wouldn't do it.

But, the Thais are the last people to complain about public nudity.

Now, if you told me that you saw a topless tourist in Bhutan, I'd find that shocking, but the Bhutanese have not developed a culture where its commonplace for youngsters to become strippers and prostitutes.

<<In the Buddhist world, silence is non-confrontational, that is their way...>>

Maybe that's why teen prostitutes are so common -- because silent, non-confrontational encounters work wonders. And, I'm sure they don't deal with other problems by ignoring it -- walking silently by a mugger, looking away while someone robs a store.

Why then do they have police -- do the police operate on the theory of non-confrontation?

I certainly appreciate that certain cultures are less confrontational than others, but they need not look away at everything offensive or criminal.

thit cho,

ho ho ho! yes we're all bad and we get our culture from all the sleazy joints on patpong road. we have no moral either and our police and society encourage crime...

what a rude and uniform thing to say about the people of Thailand! Where are you from that is so perfect?

thit cho, you ask 'what book do I read to learn about Thai customs'.

Let me say that I am unable to recall accurately the number of times I have visited Thailand, but it is certainly in the high teens and maybe more. So my understanding of local customs is based on first-hand experience and not from reading a book.
On my most recent visit to a Thai beach resort, it was clear that this practice is now more prevalent than ever before. I don't think pleading ignorance to the Thai point of view is the reason, I feel it's more a case of arrogance and discourtesy. Even a cursory attempt to find out about local customs will reveal the issue I have raised. I find it hard to believe that anyone visiting a Thai beach resort will not be aware of this custom. As Filmwill points out there are signs everywhere and certainly guidance in most hotel info-packs.
As for Paris or Bangkok, mmmmmm, knowing both cities quite well, I don't think an alien would see much difference between the two,in many ways, but it would be crystal clear that the French have a much more relaxed attitude to the naked body, so actually, it would be quite logical for 'our alien' to deduce that topless bathing might be acceptable in Paris.

thit_cho,

I'm an American who frequently travels to Thailand, and my wife is Thai. I find it reprehensible that you would include the King of Thailand in your rant against Thailand and its government/people.

It would appear that you have an agenda or are specifically biased against Thailand and it's people. Prostitution exists everywhere. I've seen just as many overt displays of sex in Las Vegas as Thailand.

I've been to Cambodia where the sex trade makes Thailand look tame by comparison. The same can be said for Manilla. This doesn't make the Cambodian or Filipino people any less human/good than wherever it is you come from.

Perhaps your long winded rants, and defense of them, would be better served if you attacked the people that are going to these countries to abuse and violate there young women (and men). Perhaps if the US military hadn't put seven bases in a sleepy backwater like Thailand in the sixties and loose GI's with money on the local populace we wouldn't be seeing these problems.

I see prostition and the like in Southeast Asia and the Phillipines as a legacy of military involvement in those countries during there early development more so than a tacit acceptance by the local populace.

In summation, two things. One, if you dislike these things so much, why are you so knowledgeable; and two, regardless of what we all think, it's there country, there rules, and we are all just visitors with money, attitudes and beliefs that often run counter to our hosts.

Bottom line, don't go topless.

changnam, THAT was very well said...and truly awesome. :)

changman, let me be clear, I have visited Thailand many times, some on business, some on holiday, because its one of the most interersting countries, in many respects, that I have visited -- culture, sights, food, charm, great beaches, friendly people, etc.

But, the overt display of prostitution is off-putting, and is much more in-your-face than other countries, including elsewhere in Southeast Asia, where I have also visited many times.

And I lump in the King, as revered as he may be, because he's uniquely situated to use his moral authority to diminish the prevalance of prostitution. But, the Thai sex industry must, and this is just a guess, support thousands of people, and by allowing the sex industry to flourish, there is no need to find alternate occupations and industry.

I find the people that frequent the sex roads equally reprehensible, if not more so, but its up to the Thai government to control prostitution in their own country -- if they depend on the kindness of foreigners, its not going to go away.

And, Thailand is the only country I have visited, and I have been to most of the countries in Asia, including Southeast Asia, where taxi drivers frequently try to direct me to a brothel, including by sharing brochures with photographs of the women.

Its naive to think that the sex industry in Thailand is not more blatant than in many other countries.

So, for a first time visitor (unlike some who may have visited mulitple times and are more sensitive to Thai customs) it may not necessarily be unreasonable to conclude that topless bathing is acceptable, especially after having wandered thru a bright lights, glaring, large sex district the night before.

Its not always so easy for a stranger to divine local mores, especially when there may be contradictory messages.

And, for all of us that enjoy visiting Thailand, I'm sure we can agree (or at least I hope we'd agree) that the sex industry is out of control.

Thit Cho I understand your point of view completely.

The sex industry is out of control, in your opinion, but if you care to do your study then you wll find that there are less sex workers now then in the past. Underage and force prostitution have alomst cease to exist because of the developing economy. People from all walk of life caught with underage girls or boys are being given life sentences.

From your touristy point of view and from the information you've gathered from the taxi drivers you've seen to generalise the whole country with your own misperception. Please don't judge the whole country just because you like to frequent w

Hanuman, that's all good news and gratifying to hear.

I have not generalized the whole country, but rather tried (obviously unsuccessfully) to suggest that it may be difficult for an outsider to discern local customs, especially in a land of perceived mixed messages.

thit cho,

yes niavity is a good excuse.

Hanuman, I never suggested that naivety should be an excuse -- I, rather, suggested that there are some very mixed messages in Thailand.

I have been to more than 100 countries, and Thailand has, by far, the most blatant, disgusting sex industry.

I would suggest that the naive are those that do not recognize, or are unwilling to acknowledge, the pervasiveness of the Thai sex industry.

In your studied opinion, does Thailand have a problem with its sex industry -- is it too large, too blatant, too coercive attracting the poor from the countryside, too important so as to ward off regulation, etc.?

It is being regulated and it's against the social norm of the Thai culture. Every body realize that it's a problem but they are also realistic that the law and the enforcement of the vice laws alone is not enough to stop the oldest profession in the world. Only economic prosperity will solve this problem and when that does happen it will not totally disappear either. It's easy to criticize but do try to understand the problem and root of the problem. It's not fair for you to suggest that because there's topless prostitutes in go go bars so therefor the whole country have to accept toplessness on the Thai beaches. That's generalisation IMO!

Again, I did not suggest that topless bathing needs to be tolerated or accepted. What I suggested was that it may be difficult for an overseas visitor, in Thailand for only a very short holiday, to realize, in light of the mixed messages, that topless bathing is deemed offensive.

So in your country, where ever you're from, if there's a topless bar in your neighborhood then it's a given that public nakedness is acceptable in that neighbourhood?

Hanuman, in Thailand, we're talking about more than one topless bar. If that were the case, then I would find it laughable if a visitor decided that topless bathing was acceptable.

But, sadly, in many Thai towns and villages, we witness more than a lone topless bar. In fact, I have been to some islands where there are large districts devoted to the sex industry.

So, when Thailand is able to reduce the number of clubs and brothels to one topless bar, I will be willing to agree that its unreasonable for a visitor to conclude that topless bathing is acceptable.

Moreover, in Thailand, many of the topless bars/brothers are not discrete, but are flamboyant, with open doors and windows through which passersby can view semi-naked, seemingly comatose women dance in an attempt to attract clients. In Thailand, the sex industry is not camouflaged or hidden, but is wide open.

enough from me mate find someone else to argue your point with.

You have GOT to be kidding me, thit cho? That is the most ridiculous thing you've said so far.

Let's not mince words here: the reason foreign tourists go topless is because they WANT to, not because they get mixed signals from Thai people or culture.

This whole rant is filled with so many generalizations and gaping holes in logic that I wonder if indeed it was Thailand you visited.
It's interesting...my visits to Thailand have never left me as morally bruised as you seem to be. One wonders if you hung out in Patpong and Pattaya the whole time you were there.

So Thailand has THE most gratuitous displays of sex by far, huh? Have you ever been to the Netherlands? I've seen some pretty sick stuff there in plain view of the public. Following your logic, Dutch citizens are just utterly reprehensible then.
Better start telling tourists in Vegas that they can have sex right on the casino tables because the city is sending mixed signals.

;)

thit_cho- so, by your logic, Vegas must be full of naked tourists, same as amsterdam and other widely known areas that are similar. I don't think that's the case...

From what I've read in the past two days, the Thai people are generally conservative, but also accepting due to their religion, like a lot of Asia it seems like. Now I don't think they'd generally have a lot of child prostitutes, if it wasn't for foreigners wanting them, and certain jerks who are willing to find and sell them in such a way. It's others who wanted it, not the general Thai people.


No matter what one might see in a different country, it's always better to err on the respectful side. And to keep the bikini top on, unless you're in a place that is known to officially encourage it. Those tourists should not be allowed to stay if they have such a disrespectful attitude in someone else's country! Hate to see what they do at home...

what about speedos....don't they speak to thai sensitivites and decency also??

Bob,

I thought you told me that Gpanda had a bikini wax before adorning the Speedos - that's ok in my book.

he has it done on his face....

I don't think it's appropriate for women to bathe topless in Thailand. I find it a completely separate issue from the sex trade.

I also don't think it's appropriate for tourists to wear low-cut strappy tops and short-shorts or short skirts. Unfortunately, we saw many women dressed as such on our recent trip to Bangkok.

I meant to write "sunbathe" not "bathe"

Electrolysis is the way to go.

Plus, I can assure everyone that my speedo is modest compared to many of the suits worn by other men without mirrors. There was a guy in a thong at the Meridien in Phuket that was not offensive it was just ugly.