Thai Elephants
 

Many of you may not know but Tong, Thailand's #1 guide, has built an elephant sanctuary, which can be visited. It is called "Elephants'Home and Nature" and is located a couple of hours outside Bangkok.

We look forward to a visit in December. My 12 year old granddaughter can't wait to swim , bath and play with the elephants, including babies.

She posts often under the camp name on Facebook if you wish to enjoy the happy pics.

Is it this place?

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attracti..._Province.html

If so, they allow the elephants to be ridden. I thought it had been established that that was a no-no. Since Tong took visitors to the late unlamented tiger park I have doubts about her concerns for animals.

Am pretty sure that Teaghan got a very serious illness when swimming with elephants. IIRC, it was life threatening, in Thailand or maybe India, and maybe a mistake was made. KimJapan would know the details.

Be careful. Elephants don't use toilets.

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...omment-3912327

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...omment-3705502

Reminds me of when we were at an Elephant rescue place and could 'bathe' the elephants. my husband threw a bucked of one and used way too much force. the water went over the elephant onto 2 boys. the boys thought he wanted to 'play' and have a water fight and started throwing buckets of water on my husband... ewwwwww... i made a wise decision to just watch that day.

I would absolutely not want to visit any "sanctuary" which also offers elephant riding and would not feel comfortable recommending such a place either.

don't go then if you think the animals are abused just by someone riding on their backs as has been done for ever.

I think your "animal rights" concerns are way overplayed. Thursday, who established it as a "no no"?

I know I am fighting an uphill battle with you zealots.

WE WILL VISIT ANYWAYS.

It depends on whether you prefer to get your understanding of the impact on of riding these animals from those who work and study them, have dedicated their lives to this, have studied their anatomy and physiology and understand animal behaviour, in short, are actually experts... or you're one of those types who scorns the experts in favour of opinions made by those with vested commercial interests or the opinions of those who simply don't have anything to base their opinions on other than how they'd *like* it to be.

I certainly am not a zealot by any stretch of the imagination, but I *do* believe we travellers can enjoy the world and its wildlife without resorting to leisure activities that hurt the animals we are so keen to see.

"as has been done for ever" has to be one of the most ridiculous arguments around. I am sure people used the same argument in support of slavery, or, more to the current discussion, the use of wild animals in circuses.

For info on riding elephants see this thread:

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...-elephants.cfm

If you bothered to click on the first link I posted above you would see you, yourself, suggesting that swimming with elephants was dangerous.

Just because you are a fan of Tong does not make everything she does a good idea, see tiger park.

Bob, my only concern here is about the girl.

thursdaysd two links to other threads made me realize that you were aware of what Teaghan and Kim and Rich went through.

The first link goes directly to a comment by you.

Your words:
just a note on the swimming part....please review kimjapan's report in the last few months where she tells of medical conditions stemming from her daughter swimming with the elephants....you may want to rethink it...

For those who want to interact with elephants near Bangkok without supporting somewhere that allows them to be ridden, this outfit has a location in Pattaya. (Which is considerably closer than Sai Yok.)

http://www.elephantjunglesanctuary.com

Rhkkmk ...How I see it. These elephants have probably been rescued and were trained to be ridden long ago. So it's too late for them and riding them doesn't hurt them per se at this point. However, the training they went through originally was torture over days and days where their spirit is completely and forever broken. Can't move more than inches, are beaten with nails on board's etc.

This was necessary at one time, but is rarely necessary today; elephants are no longer essential for many jobs.

Riding an already trained elephant may not do more damage to THAT animal, but your photos and stories will encourage this awful torture into the future.

Check out LEK, founder of elephant Nature park. She should be sainted! She has lots of videos and info on this.

I LOVE THE CIRCUS, ZOOS, GETTING FODORITES EXCITED, PRESIDENT TRUMP.

now that should be good for you to make you jump up and down..

I sit and suggest taking some antibiotics with you. Cipro, maybe.

rhkkmk - your advice has been great over the years. i thank you for that. i don't think that my answer was 'jumping up and down' in any way. enjoy your ride... just don't YOU jump up and down while riding!

thanks bill, will do.

the swimming part is still up in the air until we see the river.
I think Kim's experience was in a pond, but I may be wrong

Interesting thread, to say the least. We have watched elephants being bathed in northern Thailand and ridden them in both Thailand and India. Not sure I would be comfortable bathing WITH the elephants. The interaction between humans and animals will continue to evolve gradually I hope, as the extreme views of those that are most passionate about this in the short term, do more harm than good. IMHO...

I think you are right that she was in a pond. A river might be better. I wonder how good the sewage treatment is upstream. And farm runoff, factories.

Mrwunrful, good suggestion to take cipro. Also, consider valium, since bob rhkkk LOVE(S) GETTING FODORITES EXCITED

<<I sit and suggest taking some antibiotics with you. Cipro, maybe.>>

CaliNurse, thinking just like you, except I was going to suggest Xanax!

elephants can be bought and sold like secondhand cars in Thailand and this sadly means that people with no real expertise or scientific knowledge can simply set themselves up as an animal entertainment organisation and there is little or no regulation involved in what they do or how they treat the animals. many people in Thailand think that "loving" animals is enough.....and without any real knowledge of how to treat them they just continue tyhe animals mistreatment.

Riding elephants does damage them - in fact there are plenty of elephants around Thailand with paralysed rear legs due to spinal damage caused by riding.

It is a popular misconception that because of their size it must be OK to riding elephants - take a look at an elephants skeleton and you'll see that unlike a domesticated horse, an elephants spine has totally the wrong geometry for supporting loads on its back - any above 100 kg is likely to cause damage. howdas are especially damaging as the harnesses cut into the animal as well.

in fact most elephants are seldom ridden, a so-called "mahout may spend some time on the shoulders, but most elephants were not use for riding at all...they were used for pulling - e.g. logging, something fro which their frames are better suited.

Another problem with "trekking of spending a whole day with elephants is that they become exhausted and stressed - not long ago a young elephant collapsed in Bangkok through exhaustion of being lead through the streets all day.

elephants need huge amounts of food and water continuously to get through the day and ignoring this stresses the animals terribly.

(Back in the 20th century in Burma when logging was in full swing there was an 8 hour day - with break - strictly enforced on the use of elephants.)

elephants are highly sophisticated social animals and form strong bonds and groups - buying and selling often breaks up these groups. One also has to question why breeding of elephants is allowed to take place at all.....baby elephants are often separated from their mothers and "broken" - Google "the Crush" and the desire for baby elephants to attract customers leads to inappropriate breeding and of course the international smuggling of baby elephants - this usually involves the slaughter of parental herds.
after the end of legal logging i Thailand brought about the redundancies of thousands of elephants, the governments declared aim was to look after these animals in retirement until the population had dwindled through natural causes. however the breeding of elephants is purely for commercial gain and the never-ending desire for baby elephants to attract tourists is contrary to the long-term benefit of elephants both captive and in the wild.

Just go on to Change .org and see the plight of elephants. I'm with you Thursdaysd. I think we have discussed this issue in previous years. I am glad to see that in Jaipur the government has finally stopped the elephants being ridden up to the fort. Note also the plight of elephants in Southern India.

I suppose to make a buck, Tong would take tourists where they wanted to go. Hopefully the tiger "camps" have been closed down, although I suppose the tigers ended up in Chinese soup.

I have to agree that Tong's CV regarding animal welfare is not good......one lives in hope that people will see the light!

In this instance it appears that Tong is not just taking tourists to existing attractions, but has actually created the attraction.

Those planning to swim in rivers in Thailand might want to investigate this (copied from the Lonely Planet website):

"Leptospirosis is contracted from exposure to infected surface water – most commonly after river rafting or canyoning. Early symptoms are very similar to flu and include headache and fever. It can vary from a very mild ailment to a fatal disease. Diagnosis is made through blood tests and it is easily treated with Doxycycline."

Apparently tuberculosis can be transmitted from elephants to humans...... as well as any bacterial/viral diseases from the water.........however allowing elephants to spray water at your from their trunks seems a bit foolhardy - how would you feel if I emptied MY nose all over you???

the main population of domestic elephants in Thailand were captured/bred/broken for the purposes of logging. They are now retirees...surely the most humane option is to allow these animals to live out their days in a comfortable environment where they can behave as near to naturally as possible?
Constant interference, buying/selling and exploitation by humans is just continued stress for these animals and then continuing the line by breeding into captivity to me seems pretty unconscionable in this day and age

Staff at the Phuket Elephant Sanctuary stated that the fact that these so called sanctuaries are now promoting swimming with elephants is worrying, just another tourist con and upsetting for the elephants. Anyone riding elephants should watch the videos of the crush or have to daily drive past a baby elephant tied up all day whilst "tourists" take photos and know that it moves a few hundred yards at night to be tied up again...this is its life until it goes through training for a tourist to ride it or go swimming with it!!!!!! How can anyone condone that?

There is definitely a pattern emerging as the (western?) public becomes more and more aware of abusive animal treatments. That appears to be increasing claims of being "green" humane etc and usage of the words "sanctuary" and "rescue" when it comes to establishments charging for displays of animals.

However it is nigh-on impossible for anyone visiting Thailand for a holiday to do any serious research and find out where these elephants came from, so we have to take these places on trust or with a pinch of salt.

There are a few things that we can put on a checklist though

If you ca ride the animals - the rule of thumb is they are exploiting their
charges.
If the animals are being forced to do tricks or behave in unnatural ways - be it balancing, painting, playing football, whatever, then one has to question the values of the establishment.
If they are breeding or have several baby elephants you need to think - where did they come from and why.
Are the animals scarred by bullhooks or do they have damage around their legs and feet from ropes and chains?

not difficult top check for most of this if you bother to look.

thank you for all this enlightening info.

wilko-- I had no idea you were such an expert on elephants as well as everything else you have lectured us on over the years... had I known I would have contacted you directly.

In any case, Tong has opened this elephant camp for all to visit allowing you to see and enjoy these wonderful animals in a calm and natural setting.

I hope that these words from the naysayers above will not prevent you from visiting and making a judgement of your own, as I will be doing.

For the record, I have been interacting with Tong for about 15 years. She is a lovely, caring, religious, and dedicated woman, who has cared for animals, people, the planet and everything else she comes in contact with.
She and her staff are considered to be the best, and most professional guides in and around Bangkok. I have referred hundreds of people to her and not one has less than a 100% satisfaction level with them.

"Caring"? Not for animals it seems. According to TA she is STILL doing tiger tours, and if she cared about elephants she would not allow them to be ridden.

But I am fully aware I am wasting my time by suggesting to Bob that Tong is less than perfect.

Seems like this Tong person has jumped on the ban wagon. Purely for
Profit.
KuhnWilko you are right on everything!
Sad that tourists do not see the truth!

<i> That appears to be increasing claims of being "green" humane etc and usage of the words "sanctuary" and "rescue" when it comes to establishments charging for displays of animals.</i>

We've noticed that too. Seen the same happening in Sri Lanka, at a well known "sanctuary" near Sigiriya. Babies already being leg chained and left to stand on concrete floors in a viewing pavilion. No riding, at least.

Our guide that took us is a lovely person and I'd never have confronted him, especially in how own "world". We just said we were ready to go, he was surprised we didn't want to do any other activities. Not much on lecturing people about their own culture. The view of animals is just different (as it was in my little part of the US many years ago).

Not sure how long it will take for animal welfare to become an actual 'thing' everywhere but maybe they'll actually start to act as refuges and sanctuaries someday. Tourist response must be making some inroads, considering the naming trend, so maybe it'll keep things moving forward as well.

It's all about the $$. I was in Sri Lanka last week, and, as we passed the Sigiyara sanctuary, my driver told me the elephants actually enjoy giving rides because they get a good meal afterwords.

I thought better about starting a discussion about animal cruelty while he was driving. I wanted to get home in one piece.

For a moment we'll set aside the 'logic' and take a moment to view these videos and decide if anyone still wants to ride an elephant

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZfzstTqsxU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jK0vCh885s

or this one in Kerala India

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hxg7jo8UuaQ

Cho Chweet these gentle giants :)

I've definitely evolved on this issue. I am an ardent fan of Tong (I consider her a friend) but can no longer--in good conscience--defend her actions. This is clearly a for-profit model and not one that's even remotely rooted in any arguable pro-animal standpoint. I love Tong, but I love animals more. Sorry.

PS--it's much harder to effectively contribute on this thread when grown men act like children and call on US politics in a thread that has demonstrably nothing to do with them.

inquest... that last video is really, really sad. the life and spirit has been beaten out of these elephants, but once in a while, they show their suppressed anger... the elephant who went wild will surely be beaten to within an inch of life. These are the dying elephants who often end up at Lek's Elephant Rescue Park.... where, though she is a saint, they are chained for good parts of the nights.

I posted this a while back as a summary for those thinking of encountering animals in Thailand

http://www.fodors.com/community/asia...n-thailand.cfm

Absolutely kawh, its heart wrenching. The brutalisation & the plight of the temple elephants in India is horrendous.In the name of religion and worship they are subject to hours,even days of torture.Even to 'decorate and dress' them up for the festival takes many days at a stretch,these magnificent creatures have been hammered and goaded into submission during the process. When the festivities start the real tormentation begins.The reverberating temple drums and the high pitch noise,the ringing and the clashing of the cymbals,for hours on end, is unbearable even to human ear let alone a highly sensitive pachyderm's heightened senses.

Considering the number of festivals in India,this goes on & on, months on end,temple to temple.Often having to walk under scorching heat on tar roads to earn as much as possible.Scavenging off left-overs from hotels or begging passers-by or devotees.While on the move they are often put to unscheduled work, like hauling,lifting,joy rides and so on, as they move to the next destination.

All this is an absolute abomination to everything that is sacred/holy and to the elephants in these 'revered' temples.

India has woken up to it a few years ago. Public Interest Litigations have been filed in courts.

Brilliantly brought out by the Canadian-based filmmaker, Sangita Iyer - God in Shackles, a preview here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0vCJjM1qgo

My sincere request. Put these people who encourage such tourism like bathing an elephant, tickling a monkey,talking to a tiger or smooching an Orangutan, OUT OF BUSINESS !! Please.

Thanks Inquest. and thanks Filmill for your comment and "PS."