FromDC-I wouldn't worry to much about bringing laundry in and out of your hotel. Just put the dirty clothes in a plastic bag, no one will know. ;-). When you get it back, most likely it will be folded and wrapped in plastic.

I wish I could recommend a specific place near the Oriental, but I can't. There are a lot of small alley-like streets nearby. I'm sure you could fine some place. You could also ask here as a lot of people have stayed at the Oriental.

Unlike thursdaysd, I've never had a problem with the clothes upon return from an outside laundry. I've had a lot of laundry done over the years (incl. during a 9 month RTW trip). Usually they are very clean smelling, nicely folded, and sometimes pressed. BTW, we never saw any self serve laundromats anywhere in SEA.

More on laundry...

My husband and son have sent out LOTS of laundry over the past five years of travel in Asia and it has always come back in good shape, often beautifully boxed in a luxurious valet box. I personally am organized differently -- and hate the idea of spending lots of money on laundry -- but the service has been excellent in the PRC, HK, Thailand, Vietnam, Singapore, Japan, and Laos. Cannot remember the situation in Siem Reap.

Luang Prabang is the only place that I noticed signs all over town advertising laundry service priced by the kilo. I think that it was a standard price of 10,000 kip for 1 kilo. There were so many such signs that you had to notice them even if you were not looking for the service.

No, I would not be inclined to trot through the Metropole and Oriental lobbies with my bag of dirty linen unless I knew exactly where I was going and was assured of vendor quality and substantial cost savings that justify such an errand -- not the best use of your time.

Your trip sounds splendid, FromDC!

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Since FromDC asked, next I offer my chatty tale of

TAILORING TRAVAILS

We could have done a better job of managing the tailoring process. We weren’t completely green but we didn’t anticipate a number of pitfalls. Here is what happened in case anyone can extract any useful lessons from our experience.

My son had had a casual sports jacket made in the summer of 2007 at ___on Hang Gai Street. I had not been on that trip so didn’t know the background. I understood him to say that my husband’s colleague L who had lived in Vietnam for six years, who still travels there for work many times a year, and who is impeccably dressed, recommended that tailor. That caused me to be less on guard that I would have been otherwise. The fact that the tailor is located next to the well regarded Ha Dong further enhanced the aura of respectability, I suppose. Apparently I misunderstood my son and, in fact, L had not recommended it. Father and Son had found it on their own. Sigh. First lesson: have your facts straight, particularly when the facts come from a teenager who is inclined towards extreme economies of speech.

The next stage we thought that we handled rather well although I now understand that handling it well on our end was not sufficient.

We went in and found the manager whom Son remembered from previous year. He showed her the jacket that she had previously made for him and he requested some alterations to smooth the neckline, replace buttons, etc. She nicely agreed with him on the requested work. We then said that we were coming to Hanoi frequently and were looking to establish a relationship with a tailor. (My son is slight of stature and does not find great selection in his size range. Custom tailoring is ideal for him.) We told her we would like to start with a two-piece suit and a sport jacket. We wanted better quality fabric and workmanship than on the casual cotton/linen jacket. We had 16 days at our disposal and wanted a minimum of 4 fittings but could come in as often as necessary to see that the work was beautifully done because it was a priority. We were excited about this and would give it full attention. We selected some charcoal wool for the suit and navy blue for the jacket. We were told that it was good quality Australian wool.

Son was remeasured. I watched them write down all the new measurements. When we tried to discuss specifics of the tailoring process – the many decisions about features – she hushed me up and kept saying “No worry, I make it nice for you, very nice…no worry. I got frustrated –- who was to say that her “nice” was our “nice”? -- but concluded that, at our next appointment less than 48 hours later, we would probably see major pieces of the fabric possibly still clinging to pattern pieces, pinned to him for some next-stage decision-making. Maybe I was fretful and micro-managing… This was her business and we had already established that we were not fly-by-night tourists who would have something quick made and then vanish, never to return. No worries, right?

You veterans know where this is going, don’t you?

The morning of our return, Son said, “Mom, I bet that everything is all made up already.” Preposterous,I thought. Hadn’t we established a plan and a set of expectations about quality and availability for fittings? Yet when we returned less than 48 hours after our first consult, the garments were indeed largely made up. Most importantly, the jackets looked too short. The battles began. We had three more strenuous visits with lots of disagreement. Oh, my.

Basically what happened, we think, is that the tailor quickly made up the garments to copy the jacket he ordered at age 17 instead of following the new measurements. They were wrong but they did not want to absorb the loss and start over so they tried to persuade us that the fit was fine. Son has not grown much but he needed a little more length. Their focus was not on pride of workmanship though; it was on getting us out the door.

They didn’t know that they were dealing with the equivalent of Glenn Close in “Fatal Attraction.”

We almost called a halt on the deal but eventually we worked it. They managed to coax more length so that the jackets are acceptable now but that was after we trotted out tailoring and fitting standards (on-line) and had endless conversations and arguments.

What mystified us at the time was how many seemingly final decisions got made without consulting the client. For example, the jacket was sewn without a vent. When I wanted to discuss single v double vents at the first appointment, she had forestalled my concerns. After much conversation and calling back and forth to the tailor upstairs (if he was real), they decided to try to make vents after all. I was skeptical but they actually turned out fine.

I am not summarizing this well but we returned three more times and insisted on repeated adjustments such as having part of a sleeve reset to smooth it out. Each time, they hoped that they were done with us, I am sure; but we swallowed our discomfort and dismay and stayed with it until the garments were acceptable.

I do not understand why there is no checklist of features to address before a garment is cut. We have decided to make up our own for the future. Surely high-end tailors do not manage the process this way. I tried to inquire why they don’t use a checklist/order form approach but they thought that hilarious. You want a jacket, we make you a jacket. No worries.

My son learned a great deal from the experience about parties’ different ways of framing a problem, negotiation tactics, keeping your objectives in mind when under stress, and so forth. He actually did brilliantly at keeping the discussion focused and the process moving along after I was frazzled and prepared to call it quits. They seemed amazed that a youth could stand up for himself and calmly insist on his legitimate interests and not be hoodwinked by their ridiculously reframing the issue as “It has been cut already so it has to be this way.” (There is always a crowd in these deliberations.) By the end, the manager even said to him that she was wrong. It was a remarkable concession. I watched, crumpled up, from the corner.

The lessons should wear well – I’ll let you know if the suit and sport jacket do as well. The story isn’t really over until they have been worn and dry cleaned. For now, they look good on the hangers.

Oh, the price was $250 for the three pieces, Men’s size XS. Terms: 50 % down, balance on delivery.

This story isn’t over in another way as well. Now for part 2.

I decided on that first day to have a couple of jackets made for myself. I have a simple loose-cut/no-lapel jacket from Ha Dong on Hang Gai that I wear all the time. Perhaps some of you have it as well; the fabric is gold patterned with jewel tones and the lining is black. There is no hardware, no detail. I wear the jacket a great deal and it packs easily. I hoped for one or two more like it but there isn’t anything to fit the description so I decided to have 2 jackets made. After trying a number of things on, I selected two fabrics: one a black and white silk, another a dark (black,grey, with crimson and jade green accents) oriental fantasy pattern with branches and leaves and whatnot. We agreed on a lovely crimson lining for the second jacket.

I made my selection in the shadow of an enormous photo of Hillary Clinton who visited in 2000. I was told that there was no discussing price and no volume discount. One jacket was $98 and one was $85 so prices have risen a good deal in two years. I was also told that they required 100% payment up front which, from the buyer’s point of view, is ridiculous.

Inflexible pricing and 100% prepayment struck me as odd but what drove my compliance with poor terms was the fact that my saleswoman was 8 ½ months pregnant and clearly close to labor yet was working hard on a sweltering day. I always like to support women in business and heavily pregnant women have my sympathetic attention under any circumstance so she probably could have told me anything and I would have nodded foolishly and gotten out my credit card.

When I went back for a second fitting, I didn’t like the way the jackets were cut because they seemed skimpy. I was also surprised to see that the beautiful crimson lining was really accent pieces of lining in a plain black fabric. Ah… even in the simplest of garments, we had a definitions problem: what exactly is a “lining” anyway?

I accepted the jackets after a third fitting.

I would be curious to know if others have shopped at Ha Dong on Hang Gai in Hanoi and, if so, whether they negotiated prices and, as is customary, put a down payment rather than paying in full up front as I did on the days that I was a mindlessly compliant super-dupe in dealing with a very pregnant saleswoman. I seem to remember that ekscrunchy liked Ha Dong…

There you have the stories of two sub-par performances by a waking-talking tailors dummy, me. I look forward to learning how to better manage this process. Rule #1 though is probably to ensure vendor quality.

marya, you did have a bad experience. I've not had clothing made in Hanoi (I looked at several places in passing, wasn't impressed with the quality of the sample garments, and decided not to bother.

In my experience, a good tailor asks questions on every detail at the beginning. They usually have illustrations to show you, say, the difference between no-vent, single vent and double vent jackets. They ask about things like buttons and linings. I think any place that does not do that is going to be a problem. Likely what the place you went to does is to sew up something and expect the customer to take it right away. Less fuss for them - but not a good garment for you!

By the first fitting, when they garment is perhaps just a sleeve and a front or a sleeve, front and back, they are making adjustments to fit, but style should already have been decided. I did have an instance when there was a miscommunication about a particular feature, and we went over it in her book, and she saw that what I ordered was slightly different than what she had at the first fitting, and she made the appropriate adjustments. Each subsequent fitting should really be about fit, and there should be only rare instances when something other than fit is being adjusted.

I know your account will be much appreciated by first-timers getting tailoring done!

Thanks, Kathie.

For the menswear, everything flowed from a poor choice of tailor inadequately researched. You don't check into a 2-star hotel and then expect them to produce 5-star service because you want them. Same here. Playing the deal out and then sharing it with others has some value though, I agree. We learned a lot and will do it much better next time.

As for my jackets, the vendor was again unless someone vouches for quality and I hear that recommendation directly. Someone in Bangkok is probably best, no?

Sorry for the nonsense in para 2 -- another big gap between what I wrote/previewed and what showed up in final post form.

I have to figure out what is malfunctioning. Perhaps our internet service is stopping and starting. It does that sometimes since we switched to a 3-in-1 landline/internet/cable package. Very annoying.

Great reading and I think a lot of your experiences will be a great help in my planning of our trip early nexy year.

vhs 100,
So glad to hear it! Where are you going?

The following patches up my fractured post of 3:30 pm that begins "Thanks, Kathie."

2nd paragraph:
As for my jackets, they wound up being acceptable or I would have canceled the credit card authorization and refused them. I also knew that my previous jacket from that tailor wore like iron.

What I am poking fun at myself for and asking questions about is this: what do you think about the 100% prepayment and unnegotiable price? That seemed irregular. Have others agreed to such terms on any occasion or was I just swooning from the heat and a case of empathy with a hugely pregnant saleswoman? Have others who shopped at Ha Dong had clothes custom made or shopped off the rack?

Second, I had to laugh that even in such an uncomplicated garment, there was a definitional problem in that we didn’t agree on what a “lining” was.

Since this little drama played out under large photos of the Clinton’s, I was amused by this peculiar memory from otherwise glorious years in the US: “It depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is.” Or what “lining” is.


Next time I have clothing custom tailored, it will be after personally securing a strong recommendation from a previously satisfied customer. No hearsay. No wing and a prayer.

Someone in Bangkok is probably best, no?

Wow, marya, so sorry to hear about your experience. I can empathize because what we had done in Bangkok 5 years ago was not great either, even tho I used Cotton House which everyone loves. Some of it my fault, some of it theirs. My DH was a disaster because we took the rec of Cotton House for a men's tailor rather than thoroughly researching and that was definitely my fault. On this trip, I want to have a few things made but I'm not sure whether to give Hanoi a try this time (it comes earlier in the trip and I'd like some things to wear later on)

HCMC/Saigon, continued (bis)

After squiring ourselves around that first day, we booked a half-day private tour with Exotissimo, modifying their boilerplate city tour tour a bit to suit our interests. We know by now that you do not get in-depth commentary on these tours -- we mostly wanted to surrender responsibility for transport and logistics to someone else, as well as have a resource person for some basic questions. Our guide, Hoa, spoke excellent English as he had been an English teacher for years. His spiel was canned and theatrical, routinely punctuated by highly inflected declarations of "I love it!"-- but we managed fine once we corrected a misimpression he had that any shopping stops would be included on this tour.

I was very excited to visit the 60s- era Reunification Palace. The tour of offices, reception rooms, private residential quarters (surprisingly small), war command room, penthouse entertainment center with disco, and grounds was extensive. The more you know about the history, of course, the more stimulating the visit, but I would recommend it to those with all levels of interest in Vietnamese history in general and the American War era in particular.

We made a stop at the Emperor Jade Pagoda in district 3 but saved the War Remnants Museum for a later day to do on our own and at greater leisure.

We then asked to spend some time in Cholon, the city's Chinatown located out in district 5. I sometimes tense up in very crowded, chaotic Asian markets and find mountains of manufactured goods depressing. Our stroll through Binh Tay Market proved delightful though, particularly for the opportunity to look at all the fruits, vegetables, herbs, and such.

We then visited other temples but I am, in all distressing candor, having a memory meltdown over which was which. The visual memories are strong and stimulating but they all that I can access at present. I'll have to take the time to pore over guidebooks and sort myself out.

Moving along... we serendipitously poked our heads into an adult calligraphy class visible from the street. Our guide brokered an introduction and the teacher/students graciously welcomed us in. We didn't overstay our welcome but enjoyed a few unscripted, thus highly engaging, minutes with the class.

We asked our guide whether he could recommend a sight that wasn't on the A-list so he proposed some ideas and we selected the city's one Hindu temple. At a very basic level, it was fascinating to compare the aesthetics and devotional practices here with what we had just seen in Cholon at a few Chinese-inspired temples but the walk-through was more of a visually stimulating treat than an educational experience since our guide's commentary was rudimentary.

That wrapped up our Exotissimo half-day tour.

Other highlights of our trip to Saigon included a slow-paced visit to the War Remnants Museum. We had spent time at the "Hanoi Hilton" (Hoa Lo) two years ago and wanted to give this museum a significant amount of time. Much has been written about this museum's ability to make the case against war. Our response was probably a textbook one. My only disappointments were that (a) it was undergoing renovation in some areas, and (b) it was so crowded that it was sometimes difficult to jockey into position to read the English-language labels under the extraordinary photographs. It is good news that so many have flocked there to absorb the lessons on offer but less good news when jostling crowds compromise the experience. On a revisit, I would try to arrive at opening time or otherwise ask a Vietnamese associate if there are times when the museum is not so crowded. Otherwise, from an educational point of view, bring on the multitudes.

One entire day we devoted to a sidetrip to the Mekong Delta. This was arranged for us by associates of my husband's so we just showed up and went along for the ride. After reading Edward Gargan's book (THE RIVER'S TALE) which provided an armchair version of a trip down the Mekong from Tibet to the delta, I was thrilled to have this opportunity.

Be forewarned that the one-day version, at least as we experienced it, is touristy and limited. We drove to My Tho and took a boat tour through Tien Giang Tourist which currently operates out of modest riverside digs, but is building a palatial new office next door to where we embarked. I definitely could have dispensed with the first stop at the eccentric monk's island.

There is something to be savored from (almost) every experience in another land though, especially when you make stimulating connections to other people who have lived so differently from you. Our tour guide, a 40-something woman by the name of Kim, spoke excellent English and was a fascinating conversation partner who recounted stories of her 5 years of living in Russia and studying for a degree in Russian literature. A once-poor student who benefited from Gorbachev era largesse in the form of a scholarship and living stipend, she livened up the dull stretches of the day with her stories. Second, it was a hideously rainy and stormy day when trips were nearly canceled but ultimately just delayed so that added to the atmosphere. The short (20-30 minutes?) time when we were poled through a small stretch of river with dense canopy was outstanding. The many "invitations" to shop throughout the day were depressing though. If you are looking for higher quality cultural exchange, know that this is a

...camp, commercialized experience that offers modest (stress "modest") entertainment but certainly no enlightenment.

I soothed my frayed nerves by going back to reread Gargan's account of the "nine dragons" of the Mekong delta since the day-trip was more of an exercise in just saying no to shopping than it was an exciting experience of the river delta. On a happier note though, I continue to be stimulated by memories of my conversations with the remarkable Kim.

FromDC:

One thought.

Khai Silk has, I believe, a small store in your Hanoi hotel (Metropole) as well as on Hang Gai.

Perhaps you should research them more or start another "thread" (wince) here to inquire about others' experience with them.

In order to have an ongoing relationship with the Metropole, they would have to offer a quality product and service, no?

good advice!

marya - not sure re trip details at the moment. Just found out I can have extended leave from work so really excited as I can extend our trip accordingly.

Your report is fascinaing and I will use your experience and others to plan the detail. We have some friends in CM and believe you can fly direct from there to Laos so this may be our start point. Ideally I would like to go as far south as Malaysia and include Borneo & maybe Singapore although I can already hear my husband saying that I am trying to pack too much in!

Wrapping up HCMC/SAIGON

On my last day in Saigon, I accompanied my husband on a casual early morning work appointment then got a car to the History Museum while Husband continued to work and Son remained behind at the Sofitel to enjoy the fitness center and pool. Funny thing, I cannot imagine why an 18-year old boy would not rather accompany Mother to another museum, but no matter...

After dawdling in the leafy central courtyard, I enjoyed browsing through some early artefacts, many of them Cham and Khmer, then lingered in a room showcasing the restoration/regilding of a lovely collection Buddhas, the latter apparently funded in large measure by the US Consulate General's Discretionary Fund. Bravo!

The little water puppet theater within the museum quickly claimed my attention though. When I inquired when the next performance might be, the ticket-taker answered that she was waiting to see if a few more people would show up. There is a posted performance schedule, but it's a little flexible. Knowing that the museum was going to close for lunch at 11:30 am, I sallied to and from the theater, inspecting a couple of more galleries rather superficially until the requisite number of spectators -- perhaps 8 of us -- had presented ourselves.

I was amused by the ticket price sign that listed an admission charge in modest-sized font alongside a bold, capitalized sign saying "FOREIGNERS" 30,000 VND (or twice the cost of museum entry). We know about and understand the dual pricing approach to goods and services -- it is just not always that artlessly declaimed.

The show was short (about 20 minutes) and hilarious, with all the antics of ducks, fish, maidens, naughty boys, and the dragon and the phoenix, that one has come to expect. The recorded narration was in both Vietnamese and English, the latter a bit hard to decipher, but one doesn't go to listen, one goes to sit within splashing distance and enjoy the merriment.

I could happily have spent a much longer time exploring the museum's collection, but lunch-time closings are sacred in a land where people rise early. I thought that I could at least exit in the direction of what I imagine to be the botanical gardens/zoo since they beckoned across a peaceful lawn, but a resounding "Madame!" stopped me in my tracks and a young guard briskly and sternly ushered me out the front door while everything in our wake was shutting down with a furious energy. I was sufficiently rattled, I suppose, to overcompensate by setting out with purposeful stride ...in exactly the wrong direction. What is semi-tragic about that seemingly innocuous fact is that it led me to cross streets in error, streets that would then have to be recrossed. If you know Saigon, you know how foolish that is. Three blocks later, "the foreigner" chuckled at how flustered she had been, took out her map, and plotted a course back to the Sofitel.

Remember, as you plan your days in Saigon and other SEA cities, that a posted lunchtime closing of 11:30 am means, in my experience anyway, 11:30 am at the very latest. You'll not want to start any morning visits too late. Plan on such museums and the like staying closed until 1:30 pm.

The afternoon was devoted to shopping with my son: window shopping on Dong Khoi, wandering into malls, browsing in the fabulous Fahasa Bookstore, and braving stall after stall after stall at Ben Thanh Market.

One last stray thought. Do go see the "People's Committee Building" when illuminated at night. It is one of those French colonial fantasies in stone (or whatever material -- you cannot get near it) that stops you in your tracks. To me, it is a scaled-down Indochinese version of Paris's stunning Hotel de Ville. I hope that it is possible to both appreciate the substantial costs to the Vietnamese of colonial misrule AND appreciate the beauty of this building.

Next: on to LUANG PRABANG

can't wait

I'm really enjoying your report and looking forward to more!

"I thought myself remiss for not getting to Cha Ca La Vong in Hanoi -- family members were not interested, so I never went. I decided to order that. My pumpkin soup first course was lovely, but the cha ca hardly made the earth move. Is it wonderful at the Hanoi restaurant?"

Yes, Marya. We were there about 4 years ago and loved it. It was one of our memorable meals though quite expensive by local standards. When we came back to Sydney we found out that a local restaurant also served it. However we were disappointed with the Sydney version.

Fabulous report. I'm saving for future travels.